Moderators=ThoughtPolice?
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crucial Armitage
Clothing Designer
Join date: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 838
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07-04-2006 14:38
From: Lewis Nerd Wrong. This is a private forum, and you have no right to freedom of speech. LL can do what they like here and there's nothing we can do about it. Nobody is dying on these forums for any rights you may feel you are owed. The fact you have none doesn't seem to come into it. You may want to follow your own advice and leave real life political issues out of a thread about a computer game forum. Lewis no your wrong we can discuss any topic we choose as we choose as long as we respect the [url=http://forums.secondlife.com/faq.php?]Guidelines[/url] The thread I quoted from did not violate any of the Guidelines before it was closed. It was closed because the mod Thought it would at some time in the future it would violate the Guidelines This is completely and utterly unacceptable. If a thread does violate the Guidelines then yes i do believe that it should be closed but not befor such time. you are correct there is no one dieing in these forums but there are men and women from many countries including your own and mine dieing at this moment so that we as human beings can discuss any thing we like even if it is with in the [url=http://forums.secondlife.com/faq.php?]Guidelines[/url]
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
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07-04-2006 14:42
From: crucial Armitage If a thread does violate the Guidelines then yes i do believe that it should be closed but not befor such time. I actually bought up a very similar issue here recently but got shot down by other posters simply as "whining". Interesting that this thread hasn't been tarred similarly. From: crucial Armitage you are correct there is no one dieing in these forums but there are men and women from many countries including your own and mine dieing at this moment so that we as human beings can discuss any thing we like even if it is with in the Guidelines I don't agree with the Iraq/Afghanistan invasions, they are draining valuable resources and achieving nothing, and if I had any say in it they wouldn't be there. So I wouldn't say anyone was "dying for me" actually. But we'll leave irrelevant military/political discussions for another time. Lewis
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Elle Pollack
Takes internets seriously
Join date: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 796
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07-04-2006 14:44
From: crucial Armitage I voted yes due to the fact that a recently closed thread was simply closed because the moderator "thought" that it "may" become ugly.
I closed it because it fit the definition of "troll bait" and trolling is against the Guidelines. And I sought a second opinion before actualy closing it. If you want a thrid (Linden) opinion on the subject, I can request that too. Figuring out whether someone to trolling or not is one of the more difficult judgement calls for a mod to make.
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*********************************************** "Ya'll are so cute with your pitchforks and torches ..." ~Brent Linden SL streams a world, can you also stream a mind?
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crucial Armitage
Clothing Designer
Join date: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 838
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07-04-2006 14:59
From: Elle Pollack I closed it because it fit the definition of "troll bait". And I sought a second opinion before actually closing it. If you want a third (Linden) opinion on the subject, I can request that too. please point out where it states here, here or here where it says that threads may be closed because it has the potential to cause flaming or turn ugly or please show me the term Troll Bait. I have just finished reading these documents and nowhere can i find any reason why you would of closed that thread. I am not saying that it may have been closed at some time in the future but until as such time as arrived THREAD MUST BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE if it is not violating the TOS community standards or the forum guidelines. having absolutely nothing to do with the thread in question other then seeing it after it was closed I would like that third opinion please. Just to clarify this is not about the thread in question i could care less what people want to role play or what others think of such things. I am protesting the closure of a thread before any violations have taken place.
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Wrom Morrison
Validated User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 462
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07-04-2006 15:07
Respect the Guidelines. And tame the masses!
If they had blink tag, I bet they would have used it on that guidelines thingy..
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Alex Fitzsimmons
Resu Deretsiger
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,605
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07-04-2006 15:09
From: Jauani Wu it's a free world. while i find the entire idea of glorifying slavery and sadism to be entirely offensive, i do not begrudge adults to roleplay a fantasy life as they wish. i would remain wary of it however. In fact I dislike the term "roleplay" as applied here. We're not playing a pen-and-paper game, we're not playing characters, and we don't restrict things to sexplay. It's not a "roleplay," at least not in our case. It's a lifestyle, which is a different thing, in much the same way as a marriage is not a "roleplay." From: someone what i find unacceptable is muting any discord. I'm not fond of it either, but on the other hand, the moderators can do as they will. The board is not "free" in the sense you're hoping for -- you're chatting on private virtual property. Neither of us have to like it, but we both have to respect it. From: someone LL now wishes to stifle any internal discord with the community. to what end? to destroy the significant historical meaning in our civilizations past transgressions? I don't know. Personally, I don't have a problem with discussing it. But this board is not public property, and the moderators do have a right to moderate it. As for their motivations in so doing, any answer that comes from anyone other than themselves can be only idle speculation at best. From: someone is there no imperative that if LL allows players to roleplay acts of slavery, misogony, sadism, bestiality, and pedophelia in SL, that it should also very much allow other players, at every instance, to at least voice their opposition and concern? Not especially, no. Nor is there an imperative that I should be allowed in any given forum to denounce, for example, organized religion and its practitioners as among the most destructive forces in existence, regardless of whether people are still allowed to practice those religions. On the one hand, I'm perfectly happy with discussing this openly. On the other, neither of us has an inherent right to use this forum to do it, no.
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Wrom Morrison
Validated User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 462
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07-04-2006 15:19
From: Elle Pollack Let's stop this before it becomes an ugly thread, shall we? In my judgement the original post is an attempt to present an inflamitory topic (Gor) in a light that is almost guaranteed to start a flame war were it allowed to continue, a.k.a trolling. Trolling is very much not allowed on these forums, so I am going to send this thread to it's room without any supper.
Locked.
Three things I find disturbing about this: 1. High and mighty attitude used by res mod vs residents. 2. Locking thread without Linden review, solely based on res-mod's own judegement (when did this happen? seen 2 threads recently perm locked with similar posts). 3. No reference to said rules that are being violated (For a good reference on how to properly lock threads, see any locks done by Torley Linden).
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Elle Pollack
Takes internets seriously
Join date: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 796
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07-04-2006 15:26
From: crucial Armitage please point out where it states here, here or here where it says that threads may be closed because it has the potential to cause flaming or turn ugly or please show me the term Troll Bait. I have just finished reading these documents and nowhere can i find any reason why you would of closed that thread. I am not saying that it may have been closed at some time in the future but until as such time as arrived THREAD MUST BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE if it is not violating the TOS community standards or the forum guidelines. having absolutely nothing to do with the thread in question other then seeing it after it was closed I would like that third opinion please. Just to clarify this is not about the thread in question i could care less what people want to role play or what others think of such things. I am protesting the closure of a thread before any violations have taken place. *tries hard to be calm* Crucial, the Guidelines violation happened in the original post. Trolling, by definition, is posting something inflamitory in order to get a rise out of other people and start an arguement, generaly for their own amusement. There is more I could say about why I decided the OP violated the Guidelines, but I would have to discuss a person's abuse history in order to do so and that's a no-no. So I won't. I'm going to take myself out of this thread now because trying to argue with other people over a mod decision only begats more drama. You can PM me if you have other questions.
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*********************************************** "Ya'll are so cute with your pitchforks and torches ..." ~Brent Linden SL streams a world, can you also stream a mind?
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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07-04-2006 15:36
From: Lewis Nerd Too many thread get derailed too flippin easily when certain people want to use it as a platform to attack those like me who conduct themselves with both ignorance and impoliteness. fixt
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court. Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
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Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
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07-04-2006 15:49
From: Lewis Nerd Wrong. This is a private forum, and you have no right to freedom of speech. LL can do what they like here and theres nothing we can do about it.
Nobody is dying on these forums for any rights you may feel you are owed. The fact you have none doesn't seem to come into it. You may want to follow your own advice and leave real life political issues out of a thread about a computer game forum.
Lewis Wow, talk about hypocrisy! /108/87/117677/1.html(And before you start whining, that isn't a personal attack, it's merely a statement of fact.)
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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07-04-2006 15:51
I'll probably get tongue-lashed here, and anyone who knows me knows I have issues with some of the resmodding that has been doen in the past, but that thread was trolling. The title especially. The title didn't indicate RP. I think that was possibly intentional, to draw people in by pushing buttons, presupposing that some would skim or not read the OP at all, so that they could then be made to feel stupid for not reading thoroughly, and/or to make a cryptic point about the "type" of folks who participate in the roleplay (or lifestyle, if you prefer) being "discussed".
I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
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“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
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Phedre Aquitaine
I am the zombie queen
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,157
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07-04-2006 15:52
I'm just about the last person to defend Gor, but...
The problem with the thread in question was not his dislike of the lifestyle of Gor.
The problem was his statement that anyone who engaged in a CONSENSUAL LIFESTYLE IN REAL LIFE should be "put against the wall and shot".
I know, it's a hard distinction to make when it's so much easier to kneejerk.
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From: Billybob Goodliffe everyone loves phedre (excluding chickens), its in the TOS 
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Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
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07-04-2006 15:57
I never understood why the Lindens even care if a thread degrades into a flame war. Who cares? At that point the only ones reading it are the ones flaming each other, so let them have their fun. If people want to act like children, let them. What does it matter?
The rest of us will just move on to other threads and forget about them.
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Aodhan McDunnough
Gearhead
Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
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07-04-2006 16:04
@Vares
It's important for a host and moderators to keep flame threads out.
Flaming may be fun for some people but it turns off a lot of people who are just passing through. The new, turned-off people would be discouraged from ever posting.
In effect, allowing flames to continue kills the community of a message board. All that will be left are the flamers.
Linden Lab does not want this because as this is their board, what appears here reflects on them, no matter how you argue otherwise.
From a rights standpoint, these boards belong to LL. They have all the right to declare what will and will not be allowed.
Those who have a compulsion to flame have all the right to make their own board elsewhere.
As a past moderator of another game's message board I have to highlight the importance of keeping flames out. I have seen how flames adversely affect the community and I have seen how keeping the boards peaceful promotes mountains of constructive discussions.
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Alex Fitzsimmons
Resu Deretsiger
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,605
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07-04-2006 16:05
From: Vares Solvang I never understood why the Lindens even care if a thread degrades into a flame war. Who cares? At that point the only ones reading it are the ones flaming each other, so let them have their fun. If people want to act like children, let them. What does it matter? The rest of us will just move on to other threads and forget about them. That, I think I can speculate on. Imagine a forum wherein no one is ever prevented from simply running wild to any degree imagineable. No behavior is too immature, no reply too off-topic, no insult too personal and unnecessary. What do you picture happening there? Do you think there aren't people who would act like apes just because they could? Do you think other, more reasonable people wouldn't be drowned out by the apes and eventually leave in disgust, or else be shouted into silence? Edit: The reply that got in just before mine answers it better anyway. Oh well. 
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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07-04-2006 16:06
From: Phedre Aquitaine I'm just about the last person to defend Gor, but...
The problem with the thread in question was not his dislike of the lifestyle of Gor.
The problem was his statement that anyone who engaged in a CONSENSUAL LIFESTYLE IN REAL LIFE should be "put against the wall and shot".
I know, it's a hard distinction to make when it's so much easier to kneejerk. That post is missing now, and Jauani isn't the one who said that.
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“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
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Phedre Aquitaine
I am the zombie queen
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,157
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07-04-2006 16:08
From: Nolan Nash That post is missing now, and Jauani isn't teh one who said that. Jauani (checks spelling thrice) posted to the thread I was referring to, with something very similar to the post here. That post is in the website forum now.
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From: Billybob Goodliffe everyone loves phedre (excluding chickens), its in the TOS 
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Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
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07-04-2006 16:13
Well I can see what you two are saying. But I can't help but think:
Isn't that what the mute option is for? If there are people who are just being asses solely for the purpose of being asses, everyone can just mute them and move on. At that point, they are just talking to themselves. (Something they prob do in rl anyway.)
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Wrom Morrison
Validated User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 462
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07-04-2006 16:14
From: Nolan Nash That post is missing now, and Jauani isn't teh one who said that. It was Rusholme Malone who said it : ref.
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Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
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07-04-2006 16:19
From: Lewis Nerd We need more resmods and more control on the forums actually.
Too many thread get derailed too flippin easily when certain people want to use it as a platform to attack those like me who happen to think differently.
Lewis Basically, you need forum bodyguards so you can continue to express your random firing of synapses complaining about this, that, and the other. The forums are fine Lewis. If you can't take the waves, then stop rocking the boat. Briana Dawson
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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07-04-2006 16:20
From: Phedre Aquitaine Jauani (checks spelling thrice) posted to the thread I was referring to, with something very similar to the post here.
That post is in the website forum now. The thread Jauani referenced here is not the one you are referring to. The thread he referenced was locked. Which is why I thought the post you referred to was missing, because I went back and looked in the locked thread for it. /108/8d/118299/1.html
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“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
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Lori Nori
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
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07-04-2006 16:24
From: Jauani Wu AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR AR is it LL policy to quickly and effectively silence and language that may intentionally or unintentionally draw attention or shed a negative light on the roleplaying of slavery, misogony, and other forms of dehumanization? Seems to be, sometimes. From: someone is moderation effectively normalizing the roleplay of the indenturement, abuse, and exploitation of women? are residents effectively becoming convinced despite their liberal western values that the roleplaying of many of the most reprehensible aspects of human history is anything but offensive?
Sadly, yes. I've often wondered how LL and the community would react to some other scenarios set up like Gor... Confederate Land: RPing the pre- Civil War south. Plantations, mint juleps, slaves, etc. Racism as a fact of life. All consensual roleplay, of course! How is this different from the institutionalized misogyny of the gorean 'culture'? Would it be allowed by LL? Would the community rise up and denounce it en-masse, or would be it 'tolerated'? Would racist roleplay be inherently worse than sexist roleplay? Would people who are critical of it in-world and in the forums be labelled intolerant?
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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07-04-2006 16:36
From: Lori Nori Seems to be, sometimes.
Sadly, yes.
I've often wondered how LL and the community would react to some other scenarios set up like Gor...
Confederate Land: RPing the pre- Civil War south. Plantations, mint juleps, slaves, etc. Racism as a fact of life. All consensual roleplay, of course!
How is this different from the institutionalized misogyny of the gorean 'culture'?
Would it be allowed by LL?
Would the community rise up and denounce it en-masse, or would be it 'tolerated'?
Would racist roleplay be inherently worse than sexist roleplay?
Would people who are critical of it in-world and in the forums be labelled intolerant? Gorean SL is based on a set of fictional novels. Slavery in the US is not. Slaves in Gor glady and willfully serve. Slaves on Plantations in the US did not. Just a couple of differences.
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“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
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Angel Fluffy
Very Helpful
Join date: 3 Mar 2006
Posts: 810
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07-04-2006 16:37
Some very good points have been made in this topic. You know who you are  As for if moderators are thought police... it is possible. Police don't stop crimes being done, they punish offenders. Moderators don't stop people expressing opinions (usually) - they just punish people who express certain types of opinions or express them in certain ways. Moderation is essentially reactive (unless you ban someone, that's proactive too). It doesn't force people to comply, but it punishes them for doing/saying things. By repeated application of punishment for a certain behaviour, you train someone not to do that behaviour anymore. Standard Pavlov conditioning that they use on dogs, also works on humans, as we're not really that different. The question that divides the 'yes' from the 'no' camp on this topic is probably : do moderators punish thought, or action? The obvious answer is 'action, because they're not psychic, they can go only on what is posted'. The more interesting question which lies at the crux of this issue might be.... does policing someone's action over time come to police their thoughts? Or does it merely cause them to police their own thoughts to avoid punishment by being tempted to wrong action? Are the moderators not thought police, or are they thought police, or do they merely train people to be their own thought police? No moral evaluation is meant to be included in this post - I don't claim thought-policing is good or bad, this is just my comments on IF moderation is thought policing.
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Alex Fitzsimmons
Resu Deretsiger
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,605
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07-04-2006 16:38
So then if my Mistress happens to be a black woman (She is, in SL and RL both), what affect, if any, does that have? I can't help wondering, honestly, what with the implications being made that it's all racist or sexist. I'm not worried about defending Gor per se (although I do like certain Goreans), but I feel like D/s in general is getting dragged into this somehow.
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