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Arbitrarily locking threads?

Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
07-01-2006 02:18
What can be done about clear Linden abuse of powers?

Legitimate threads on legitimate discussions are locked for no reason other than:

a) It shows up a Linden acting inappropriately.

b) It shows Linden ineffectiveness at following their own ToS.

As I am not referring directly to any threads, I am not reposting on a locked thread and therefore am not violating any ToS part in any way.

There is more and more dissatisfaction with the way this game is being run. It's visible from all sides. I wonder whether it's time for a vote of "no confidence" in Linden Labs and show them that they need to change, and we will not stand it any longer.

Lewis
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Sean Martin
Yesnomaybe.
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 584
07-01-2006 02:25
I saw that thread lol :rolleyes:
And I have no comment other than I saw it. :)
Well ok one comment. Makes me wonder whats going on. I didn't get the whole story. Being that there are two sides and all. :rolleyes:
But I didn't see any reason for the person to be silenced that way.
Freedom of speech but not in SL I guess :p
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Sean Martin
Yesnomaybe.
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 584
07-01-2006 02:41
Ok one more comment. Just because this reminded me of something.

In other online forums I've seen how moderators use an alt to "name" someone in the post.
Just so it appears to be a "good reason" to lock it.

Amazing how many ways things can be twisted online. :rolleyes:

If the lindens wanted a post locked thats all they would have to do. Nobody would know any better.
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Warda Kawabata
Amityville Horror
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,300
07-01-2006 02:54
Yes, I for one will not stand for this kind of nonsense. If they don't fix this soon, I'm going to watch what everyone else is doing and follow all the other sheeple!

And that's my final word on the matter. Don't say you weren't warned!
Suzanna Soyinka
Slinky Slinky Slinky
Join date: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 292
07-01-2006 02:58
I'm just sad. :(

After SOE, LL and SL were like a breath of fresh air.

Now its starting to smell like a old closet full of thrown away gym shoes and used diapers.
nimrod Yaffle
Cavemen are people too...
Join date: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,146
07-01-2006 03:09
I don't understand why it's sad. This was a dispute between Kenny, the OP, and the other party. If she feels it wasn't handled correctly, she could have asked for a higher-up email address, which (I believe) would be [email]Abuse_manager@secondlife.com[/email]. She also posted a chat log, which is against the TOS no matter who was involved.
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Suzanna Soyinka
Slinky Slinky Slinky
Join date: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 292
07-01-2006 03:21
From: nimrod Yaffle
I don't understand why it's sad. This was a dispute between Kenny, the OP, and the other party. If she feels it wasn't handled correctly, she could have asked for a higher-up email address, which (I believe) would be [email]Abuse_manager@secondlife.com[/email]. She also posted a chat log, which is against the TOS no matter who was involved.


I had no idea logs between customers and Linden staff were considered confidential. That was my mistake. I assumed that communications between customers and Linden staff were open to presentation due to the client/service provider aspect of customer service.

Its sad because the situations being allowed to occur at all. Forum situation aside.

I have no dispute with any of the Lindens, they're just doing CYA as far as operating within the limits of their rules. I won't go into what my problem is because I've been told I'm not allowed to discuss it here.
nimrod Yaffle
Cavemen are people too...
Join date: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,146
07-01-2006 03:45
From: Suzanna Soyinka

I have no dispute with any of the Lindens, they're just doing CYA as far as operating within the limits of their rules. I won't go into what my problem is because I've been told I'm not allowed to discuss it here.

Honestly, I think that would be best, no offense meant. Thanks. :D
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
07-01-2006 04:33
From: nimrod Yaffle
Honestly, I think that would be best, no offense meant. Thanks. :D


You speaking for the Lindens now, nimrod?
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Jon Rolland
Registered User
Join date: 3 Oct 2005
Posts: 705
07-01-2006 08:29
From: Lewis Nerd
What can be done about clear Linden abuse of powers?


Close your account and quit playing their game or accept that it's their game and even with them not handling things the way you want you want to play it anyways. That's the only options.
Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
07-01-2006 08:54
From: Jon Rolland
Close your account and quit playing their game or accept that it's their game and even with them not handling things the way you want you want to play it anyways. That's the only options.


There is a third option... stand up against injustice and speak out to get things changed.

It's a good job Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King and others didn't think like you.

Lewis
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Jon Rolland
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Join date: 3 Oct 2005
Posts: 705
07-01-2006 09:39
From: Lewis Nerd
There is a third option... stand up against injustice and speak out to get things changed.

It's a good job Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King and others didn't think like you.

Lewis


Your confusing business and government. This is a business if you don't like how they run their business you don't give them yours. That's how you stand up not by whining on their forums while continuing to feed them cash.
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
07-01-2006 09:52
From: Lewis Nerd
There is a third option... stand up against injustice and speak out to get things changed.

It's a good job Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King and others didn't think like you.


And even better they didn't think like you.

It's ludicrous to make this comparison.
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
07-01-2006 09:54
Don't get me wrong... I enjoy SL and the building tools that enable me to shape my own little world just the way I want to.... that's why I'm here, and stay here. There are some great people here who I am privileged to call my friends, and some fantastic builds that are a delight to visit.

I just don't like the way LL make some of their decisions, that's all. Especially those that put the needs of basic account new players over and above retaining long-term paying residents. I don't believe anywhere in the ToS does it say that we have to sit back and take everything from LL because they are LL - in fact, protests are not only tolerated but encouraged, and I'm just exercising my right to do so.

Lewis
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
07-01-2006 10:01
The reasons were locking it were some of the usual reasons, posting chat logs and something that should be a private issue, as far as I could see, rather than the more conspiratorial reasons you cite.
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Wrom Morrison
Validated User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 462
07-01-2006 10:19
It's funny how they used the naming-names clause on that. The only people named were Lindens. Are they saying that Lindens are customers now? And thus should not be named? (I actually read the ToS to see if they added a clause like this).
Tren Neva
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 619
07-01-2006 10:34
I like how you claim that "legitimate threads on legitimate discussions" are being locked, dispite the fact that it wasn't legitimate nor was it more then one thread, unless you count the repost of it. Let's say it didn't name names or a chat log, what possible legitimate discussion would of spawned from it?
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
07-01-2006 10:36
From: Wrom Morrison
It's funny how they used the naming-names clause on that. The only people named were Lindens. Are they saying that Lindens are customers now? And thus should not be named? (I actually read the ToS to see if they added a clause like this).


Actually naming names wasn't the cited reason. It was

a) Private discussion (naming names just happens to be part of the description of private discussion) ie dispute between two residents,

and b) Disclosure, the chat logs. Not everything that comes out of a Linden's mouth is an official Linden statement, sometimes they're just representing themselves and their opinion, and sometimes they're inworld in a private rather than work capacity. So yes, I guess not posting a chat-log applies to Lindens too.
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Wrom Morrison
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07-01-2006 10:45
From: Fade Languish
Actually naming names wasn't the cited reason. It was

a) Private discussion (naming names just happens to be part of the description of private discussion) ie dispute between two residents,

and b) Disclosure, the chat logs. Not everything that comes out of a Linden's mouth is an official Linden statement, sometimes they're just representing themselves and their opinion, and sometimes they're inworld in a private rather than work capacity. So yes, I guess not posting a chat-log applies to Lindens too.


What's sited was between resident-resident, not resident-Linden. So I don't see how those fall under those.

Unless somehow Lindens have become a resident somehow.

From: someone

I've closed this thread:

Private discussions – the forums are a public area for the Second Life community’s use. Individuals who have a dispute with each other have other channels of communication to discuss their differences or communicate – private messaging, IM within Second Life, or chatting within Second Life. Also, threads that are addressed to a single individual or group are inappropriate on the forums, this includes slander or "naming names" in a posts title, starting polls about a particular resident or group, etc.

Also:

Disclosure
Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Lives. Sharing personal information about a fellow Resident --including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, and real-world location beyond what is provided by the Resident in the First Life page of their Resident profile is a violation of that Resident's privacy. Remotely monitoring conversations, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without consent are all prohibited in Second Life and on the Second Life Forums.

forum Guidelines
Community Standards

It's really unfortunate to see this.


Unless I'm mistaken, all those apply to stuff between residents, ie. Party A being a resident and Party B being a resident. If Party A is a resident and Party B is a Linden these would not apply.
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
07-01-2006 10:48
From: Wrom Morrison
What's sited was between resident-resident, not resident-Linden. So I don't see how those fall under those.

Unless somehow Lindens have become a resident somehow.


The dispute, the thing that should private discussion, was between two residents. Remove the chat-logs, remove the Lindens, and you still have something that is a private dispute between two residents, hence the lock.

I do see your point re: chat logs and Lindens, regarding the wording of the TOS.
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Devlin Gallant
Thought Police
Join date: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 5,948
07-01-2006 10:51
From: Suzanna Soyinka
I'm just sad. :(

After SOE, LL and SL were like a breath of fresh air.

Now its starting to smell like a old closet full of thrown away gym shoes and used diapers.


Hey! I am a cherub! MY used diapers smell of lilac and jasmine!!! :mad:
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Wrom Morrison
Validated User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 462
07-01-2006 10:52
From: Fade Languish
The dispute, the thing that should private discussion, was between two residents. Remove the chat-logs, remove the Lindens, and you still have something that is a private dispute between two residents, hence the lock.


What Torley removed from there was the conversation between the resident and Kenny Linden.

There was no names named (resident), unless she edited the post before I read it, but as far as I can see it was her vs Lindens. And ther question was mostly general, ie. I got X person doing this, and LL is not helping me, what can be done about this? (and so on).
Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
07-01-2006 10:53
From: Lewis Nerd
What can be done about clear Linden abuse of powers?


Have you read the Tos? (You said you were going too, but now I don't think you did.) Nothing can be done about it.

The Lindens can do what they want, when they want, for whatever reason they want.

Stop pretending you actually have rights here, cause you don't.
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
07-01-2006 11:00
From: Wrom Morrison
There was no names named (resident), unless she edited the post before I read it, but as far as I can see it was her vs Lindens. And ther question was mostly general, ie. I got X person doing this, and LL is not helping me, what can be done about this? (and so on).


I'd say whether it should be a private discussion is not dependant on whether you name names. And really, they weren't asking what could be done, and it wasn't that general. They made some quite specific accusations like it's a "direct attempt to sabotage my business".

And while they don't name them in the post, there's enough info there to identify them, and they do say 'IM me and I'll tell you the name'. That takes it out of the realm of a general discussion. The intention is clearly to publicly air a private dispute.
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Marla Truss
Registered User
Join date: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 197
07-01-2006 11:14
From: Vares Solvang
Have you read the Tos? (You said you were going too, but now I don't think you did.) Nothing can be done about it.

The Lindens can do what they want, when they want, for whatever reason they want.

Stop pretending you actually have rights here, cause you don't.


I can't comment on the question of whether the lockout was justified or not, but I can disagree about this sentiment I've been hearing.

Yes, LL has to the power to control exactly what they want on their servers. BUT that does not equate to 'nothing can be done about it'. Nor does it equate to the "love it or leave it" logic I've heard posted here.

As customers, we can voice our opinions, and any good business (which I think LL is) will listen. The final decision is theirs, but it doesn't mean that you don't have the power to influence that decision.

But note something, influencing another is a very complex process. Negative statements generally have less power than positive statements. Keeping a balance in opinions, seeing both sides, and giving well thought out suggestions generally has more influence than absolutism.
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