SL must be careful to protect ethics on the web

by that do you mean someone who has the ability to turn your own feeble attempt at just that on his own stupid ( ) self?

No. I mean you make snide comments about other people but apparently don't have the cajones to admit you're actually being snide.

Stop putting the responsibility for your overt efforts at being offensive and rude on other people.

And now, bugger this for a lark.

I'm off to the Field to eat really, really good Irish food.

And you aren't.

lets see some quotes of my "overt efforts at being offensive and rude to other people". And these had better be good and not just my silly comments taking the mick out of people that might be using SL.

I was thinking about something so feeling a need to mention it. Please forgive the overly long post.

I'm not worried about what will happen to my daughter if she sees a naked man. In fact she's 14 years old and I'm realistic enough to know she's already looking at boys and men and has probably found a way to see what she's curious about at least once, and thats normal and healthy. I AM worried about what will happen to my daughter if I raise her to not understand that the fully clothed man about to sit down next to her on the bus is someone she should be suspicious of.

I think of it the same way with other people's children. It doesn't concern me whether little junior can get online and see naked boobies. He will see boobies plenty of times in his life and if he's a healthy straight male he will one day appreciate how wondrous boobies can be. My concern for junior is that while he's happily perusing boobies there may be a dangerous predator befreinding him and he hasn't been taught to be cautious. This situation though will occur whether he is online or in the neighborhood shopping mall.

In an ideal world, until junior is mature enough to protect himself, his parents would be walking in the mall beside him watching out for him. But because we know there is no such thing as an ideal world, we have security guards, merchants, and other parents eyeing junior as he walks by alone and remembering to watch out for him.

In SL it's the same way. For awhile we had it a little better. At the door we had this little alarm thing watching out for juniors alone, (CCs) that worked some times and not other times but some times was better than nothing. Now we don't have that alarm. We tried to get it back but what's done is done. We do however still have the security guards (Lindens), the merchants (be cautious of your selling practices, I'll get back to this), and other parents (AR minors when you find them).

As for the legal side of it, as coco mentioned, it appears LL may be setting themselves up to assume no responsibility much like your ordinary internet service provider isn't responsible for what people post on their personal websites. I can see this is a possibility and thats where we have to watch out for ourselves. We don't have to stop enjoying adult activities in SL because there may or may not be a child wandering around any more than we would cease all adult activities in RL. Thats unrealistic and IMO irrational. I don't intend to stop anything. I will continue to protect children when and where I find them as I always have, but I will not stop being a healthy normal adult.

On the internet there are websites galore for porn. What do all these websites have in common? A question. "Are you 18 or over? Press Enter for yes I am 18 or No for get me out of here" (or something along those lines) Now further in they'll require CC or something to access the real porn but to access the site itself, all that is required in most cases is answering that question. This is how they protect themselves. They place the responsibility on the person entering. When was the last time you heard of an actual porn site being sued because little junior lied and pressed that Enter button?

SL is not a porn site, therefore LL has decided they no longer need to ask that question. However within SL (just as everywhere you go in RL) there are places dedicated to what one would consider porn. It's those places who need to ask the question.

In my store, I sell clothing, therefore my store is safe, it is PG. In my club however adult activities do occur and adult discussions occur often. My club needs me to protect it. If I KNOW someone to be underage, it is my responsibility to keep them out. If I merely suspect someone to be underage, it is my responsibility to find out. So I ask. If they hedge the question, they're gone. If they answer but I suspect they're lying, they're gone. If they offer me proof, If they satisfy me with evidence then they can stay. That is how I protect the club, the members, myself, and children.

I still stress that when I do this it isn't to prevent junior from seeing pixilated T&A, its to protect myself, my members from legal issues and to protect junior from that one possible member I dont know about who might hurt him.

But no one will be able to say that I didn't put in some effort. In the end I believe thats all anyone can do.

Have to beg to differ on that one. The best lover I ever had collected both playboy and hustler for years. I'm not saying they helped him but they sure as hell didn't hurt.

Wow, you've said that a few times now. Does your sexuality make you feel guilty?

I know that being verified doesn't guarantee one is not a minor. I'm talking about the reasonable precautions entities may be reasonably expected to take..

The law doesn't insist you take foolproof measures (as none exist); the law insists you take measures.

None of that has anything to do with people's various views of child-raising.

coco

And when those measures are shown to be ineffective,
having them there as a placebo is helpful exactly how?

The quantity of new citizens has increased without CC validation, yes.

But can anyone actually show that the percentage of minors has increased?

No, obviously, for the same reason that we can't effectively keep them off the adult grid.


--
Perhaps folks should only cyber in sims without any light.

um.. take a look at your posts to me... those would be offensive and rude.
Is it that you don't understand what the words you use mean? Seriously. I mean, do you just hear them on the tv and use them in sentences, even though you don't know the definition?

See, I didn't get it before. I thought you were looking for discussion and other peoples opinions in order to help form your own.
That's where I was wrong.

I hadn't realized that you're just a troll that just wants to get his point across and not listen to anyone else.

See, now I do and I don't have to partake in this little "Look at me, look at me, LOOOK AAAT MEEEEEE!"-fest any more.

I close with, "We notice you mookid. We really do."

Okay, now you have TOTALLY lost all credibility with me. Weird does not = perverted. Geeky does not = perverted. Fat does not = perverted.

Wow. 50% more flames than other threads, i'm impressed!

Ok really now.



Prove to me that it was TOTATLLY ineffective. If it keeps so much as one person where they're supposed to be, then the system is doing its job. It's not meant to be a be-all-end-all verification, it's there as a hurdle for those to clear to prove that they have some commitment to their second life.

Its not any more verification than the "Yes i'm 18" links on the front of porn sites. But you know what? The sites still have the front pages, effective or no.

Why?



And this is precisely what LL is failing to do, and is precisely what some idiot will sue LL for failing to do between now and some better form of verification coming in.

mookid is hereby kindly asked to GTFO my thread. Thank you.

Threadlock in 3.. 2.. 1..

This must be western society. Total concentration on sexual problems! No wonder we have falling birthrates!

The very first post in this thread shows a contradiction that no one has commented on. How can someone who has not verified a cc do gambling? It takes a lot of money trees and parking to get enough money to gamble! To me violence and gambling are worse crimes than seeing the odd pixelated interchange.

Just a sad reflection on our society.

Ed

The old method WAS totally ineffective... for approving legitmate adults for the grid if they didn't have credit cards, or didn't trust LL with their credit card information.

For every minor it kept out... how many adults were unfairly forbidden access as well?


We should ban all cars! "If it keeps so much as one person... " (safe from being run over by a drunk driver) "then the system is doing its job." Why do we still drive when human life is so precious? Because one person isn't important enough to force that kind of inconvenience for everyone else.


"It's there as a hurdle for those to clear to prove that they have some commitment to their second life."

That sounds about as appealing as getting married to someone before you meet them.

The internet is not a place for kids. if not on SL, they will probably get into contact with adult material elsewhere. Een the Fox Kids chatgoups intedned for children, as that is one of the fist places fo anyone who wants to, can get to them easily...
It's the parent's responibility from beginning to end to make sure they know about what their children are doing, on- as well as offline.

The legal system in the US however, makes it easy to just sue everyone who you think is at fault for not taking your own responsibility, fast food restaurants if you're too stupid to realiize coffee is always hot, cigarette companies if you're too stupid to realize smoking gives you cancer, and so on and so on. So this indeed is a problem that needs to be tackles,, would Linden Labs want to avoid any legal cases in the future. Cause if a parent finds out that their kids leared certain things from SL, they will smell MONEY and sue for all that LL is worth... Probably dragging their kid along down with it... (I dont think a kid will really enjoy going trough the mill in a legal process...)


using crditcard info however, is not a solution. Some parents will think nothing of it really, and just let their kid online with their creditcard, without thinking... Yes, people are ifgnorant/irresponsible like that. If that's not the case, it's very easy for Little Jennie to grab her mom's creditcard when she's not looking, and get onto SL anyway.

I think that it's important to look at other ways to prevent children frm getting on the main grid, i that means limited access for everyone else, or a signup procedure that is hell to go trough, so be it.

I still think that it's the parent's sole responsibility to keep their kids safe tho.
Can't keep an eye all the time? No more computer for little tommie. or get a real life nanny to watch over your kids.

One last thing: LL has all information on player's personal data: if a kid is found roaming the main grid, not onluy should that account be banned, but the local authorities should be warned by them to have a little chat with the parents of that kid.

One very very last thing... Ethics and morality differ from country to country... This HAS to be taken into concideration. It's not only people from the US who use SL after all. (not really a point in this discussion now, but a point none the less. Since we're talking ethics here...)

+



Why do people keep banging on with this stereotype of people who use computers? This is the 21st century, where a significant portion of many, many populations own or have access to personal computers. Yes, 'even' women, even attractive people, even people with fulfilling sex lives and without social impairments.

edit: retracted cos I said too much about myself and this person isn't worth it!

Do not ask me to even consider your 'rational' argument, when it is based on such a fucked-up stereotype. SL is full of talented, fulfilled accomplished people. Real people, with real lives. We're not the comic shop dude from The Simpsons. We're all sorts of people here for all sorts of reasons, not just a bunch of misfits addressing some kind of kind of social, sexual or aesthetic malady.

Get with the program.

1 word. begins with an 'H' and ends in 'ypocrite'. Good point though.

Do you seriously think I'm in this discussion with my own interests at heart? Cos I'm not.. I don't know whether you've worked it out yet; I am aware of what goes on in SL and online in general and so when I come to have children I won't experience these problems as I will have properly explained the situation to them (perhaps even show them some adult SL to let them see for themselves - when their old enough).

Oh and also - who exactly is 'looking' around here? If i'm not mistaken your "REEAAADDDINGG MEEEEE".. as i've said before I have more important things to do with my time than attention seek from trekkies. (yes that is a joke get over it. if you are chubby and you wear stupid space costumes it's not my problem. grow up.)

ok Tarzan give your ego a push to one side and attempt to actually answer the topic of discussion please.

I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not my sex life is or isn't any better than yours.. funnily enough I don't care what you internet forum posting superstud's have to say on the matter of sexuality full stop. This isn't really about sexuality; it's just been focused that way by people who don't understand the issues being raised here and would rather try and make a cheap dig at what they think I feel about modern day sexuality.

fair enough.. if you don't have a decent point, focus on something completely irrelevant that you can make a 'point' on. Are you all american politicians?!

The fact is, that credit card verification would provide an added protection for the adults on SL and the curious children who need LL to take the responsibility for them by removing temptation (as far out of their reach as possible).

It is not a sufficient argument to suggest not going through with it because the 'plan' isn't full-proof considering that there are many 'plans' and controls in our 'RL' countries that are exactly that (immigration?!). Wouldn't it be wonderful if our governments decided that it was too much trouble for them to have an immigration system that wasn't fullproof and so they shouldn't bother at all and just open the boarders up.

Can eveyone stop being small minded, focusing on my 'weaknesses' (pah.), and look at this from the perspective of parents who don't use online forums to discuss their cyber life. To those people it looks like their kid is playing a computer game.. at which point policing your children becomes problematic.

Don't assume everyone in the world is like you. Because they aren't believe me. That's not to say I don't believe that they all will be eventually, they just aren't right now.

Have some respect for those people and try and consider them in your descision.

Oh also - can people please STOP TALKING ABOUT GIVING UP FREEDOM. The only freedom you lose is the 30 seconds it takes you to fill in your credit card details on a website. boo hoo. A small price to pay for the piece of mind it could give you while you go abuot your super horney pixel bonking.

Please try and reply to this without questioning my understanding of sexuality.. Interestingly the amount of people living lives where they feel that it is their sexual 'right' to be able to oggle at pictures of people they don't even know is increasing. However so is the rate of divorce and people cheating on one another. Go figure captain copulation.

Against my better judgment, I'm going to ring in with a point here.

Children aside (and I have 2 of my own, so hush), the technical difficulties of policing SL for kids is not a scalable system.

For example... Do Apache web servers have any built-in way to determine age? IRC chatrooms? NewsGroups? How about video games? They're rated, but do they actually CHECK your age when installed in any way?

No?

Then stop screaming at SL for figuring out what everyone else did a long time ago. The only age check system that work are the ones that PROFIT from doing so. Adult websites pay large amounts of money to companies that do these kinds of checks, meager as they are, because it protects them from most litigation and transfers the risk to the verifier.

Notice I never said they keep kids out, I said it just transfered the risk of litigation....


The point it, the ONLY way to protect kids is to educate them. It's sad work, and it takes away some of the innocence we love about them, but it's a sad part of the world we live in.

There ARE monsters in the world, and they look exactly like everyone else. Hiding that fact from them does them no good, and possibly a lot of harm.

Back to your regularly scheduled ranting.

lol..

RUN BILLY RUN THE PERVERTS ARE GOING TO GET YOU!

get a grip. CC verification would reduce the ease for children wanting to get in on SL at no cost to adults other than the time taken to fill in your CC details..

...

Considering the bile he was responding to, and the response you gave...

Yup. You have become a Troll(tm).

You probably did not even notice the move to being one, but when you start ranting about something in an excessive manner, insulting a group of people by connecting them with a group that is seen as vile... Well, you were setting the stage for Trolldom. Then you responded with the above. That kind of makes it official.


Move along people. Do not feed the Troll. He's looking for a fight and giving it to him will NOT assist this topic. All the points that are going to be made look to have been, but feel free to pipe up if an idea comes to you.

I believe I addressed that with this statement:



My attention was not to brag about how great my life has been, merely to counter the narrow-minded little box you place us all in. I honestly couldn't give a damn if you think it's ego, people who know me, know better. I'm pretty damn quiet and unassuming in-world. It's certainly not something I've ever bothered to bring up before (no reason), and maybe shouldn't have at all... it was certainly uncomfortable to say so much about myself... it just happens to be so, and conflicts markedly with your stereotype. But am I supposed to suppress who I am as a person, because it's the internet?

I could have focused on the people with amazing careers, who are CTOs etc of large successful companies, accomplished artists, whatever, however, that is their life, not mine, so I cannot adequately describe it.

It is you who dragged our sexuality into it, and what kind of lives we have, with your broad assertions about what sort of person participates in SL. Your whole premise is based on a narrow-minded, and frankly, twisted point of view.

Person after person in this thread, has addressed you reasonably, with logic, on-topic, even people who fundamentally agree with your central premise - that there should be age verification in SL. You chose to dismiss any rational discussion, you chose to be reject their statements, with statements like "you must have deep seated issues".

If you want a rational, reasonable, discussion, stick to the issue yourself, present it in a rational manner, without resorting to negative statements and labels. People are going to disagree though - that doesn't indicate a failure to comprehend, nor is it a reflection of some inadequacy on their part. Calling people things like "Tarzan", is not endearing or conducive to rational discussion, nor is labelling people "FILTHY (MOSTLY UNNATRACTIVE) GEEKS HIDING BEHIND COMPUTER SCREENS RUBBING THEMSELVES ALL NIGHT WATCHING THEIR AVATARS HUMP FEMALE AVATARS THAT ARE REALLY JUST OTHER FAT BLOKES." You chose to shout, not me. You chose not to listen to people. You chose to label us. If you got a harsh reaction, I'm just sick of reading that kind of dismissive crap.

As I've said before CC verification would not cause you to lose any freedom, please read what is being discussed here.



that's a pure classic 'sick of reading dismissive crap'. you put the moron in oxymoron.

It does look suspiciously like you're conceding defeat and just pretending like you've won..
The old "agree to disagree" (and conveniently ignore the topic).

What you've just done is use the same branding technique that your "troll" did in the first place with the auto-fondling geeks who, whether you take offence to them or not, are a (possibly considerable) part of the SL community... And now you're saying "don't feed the troll"...

Blatent hippo.

I wasn't referring to that with that statement. Please read my sentences in context. Nor am I even concerned with losing any freedom via CC verification. Look at my join date - I signed on when such verification was required. Check your public poll - I voted 'don't care', because it won't affect me either way. For the record, the only concerns I expressed at the time of the new registration process being initiated, was for both LL's liability, and for the ease of minors entering SL. I was even more concerned with the removal of verification for the teen grid, I believe however, that has been reinstated.

As many have pointed out, even some of those who believe strongly that it should be there, CC verification does not ensure minors cannot enter the main grid. I know in my country, there are many, many teens with full access to credit cards. I would also point to those who have pointed out that VISA doesn't allow people to use their credit cards as a means of age verification.

In something as international as SL, I know of know foolproof way to validate the truth of someone's age, there just aren't uniform systems that enable this. If it was purely US, maybe you could tie it to a driver's license, but it's not. Internationally, CCs are not as ubiquitous as they are in the US, or even in my country, so it's not ideal, and does exclude many legitimate users (including people who just have shit credit ratings, apparently debit cards aren't as functional in some places as they are where I'm from, Australia.

There are far more damaging things on the internet than SL... porn sites are easily accessible, often requiring merely a statement to the effect that you are over 18 - they merely transfer the liability to the user. Often, you don't even get that until after you've already been exposed to the porn. Hell, yesterday, I downloaded what I thought to be an innocent music video, only to find it was in fact, hardcore porn, and Safari popped open and started navigating to a porn site all by itself as soon as I had hit play - I was expecting to see this cool punky version of "Ramblin' Man'.

I agree with the people who say the best defense, is parental supervision and education. It's not foolproof, but neither can you ensure your children not being exposed to drugs or other dangers - you do what you can. However, you do have more control of their computer lives than you do when they leave the house. You provide the computer, you can decide where they use it, you can supervise their use - park it in the loungeroom, where you can keep an eye on it - if they don't abide by your rules, you paid for the machine, it's your house, pull the plug and remove their access.

It is ultimately the parent's job to safeguard their children, companies should employ reasonable measures and assume some responsibility for their content, yes, but ultimate responsibility does come down to the parent. Free-to-air television (and even more so in my country than the US), may well be broadcasting material you don't want your children to see, is even more accessible, but we don't need a CC to access that. Media is media.

I don't however, ascribe to the notion that SL is a cesspit of porn and sleaze - it exists, but I am confronted by it far less often than I am by very desirable things, like creativity and beauty. And for the most part, what does exist, is far less confronting than the very real and graphic images that exist in abundance elsewhere, Nor do I see it as a 'predator' playground' - why come to SL, where the assumption is that you are over 18, when there are far more potential victims in other places, chatroooms, My Space type setups? They'll go where the most chance of success is. SL is about the least of the internet's problems.

If I could think of an effective means of actually ensuring people were the age they claim, I'd suggest it, but in such an international environment, I can't. I don't see why LL should jump through any special hoops that no other company or form of media does however.

CC verification doesn't work, isn't coming back, so do you have a constructive, effective alternative to offer?



Nice. Cheers.