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SL must be careful to protect ethics on the web

mookid Widget
Registered User
Join date: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 53
07-08-2006 09:33
aha gotta love that ¬_¬
Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
07-08-2006 09:34
The simple fact is that allowing unrestricted access to communication channels occupied by adults and children alike will always allow adults to talk to children.

SL is actually far more censored and protected than most other avenues; it at least has a specific teen area, and a policy of removing teens from adult areas and vice versa, difficult though that may be. It is, I'm sorry, ridiculous to insist that SL is dangerous compared to MSN, Yahoo boards, bulletin boards in their thousands and so on. Have you looked at Myspace or Livejournal recently?

Censorware doesn't work; the only way of protecting kids is either to prevent them from accessing the net altogether and/or to teach them the skills to protect themselves, identify potentially dangerous situations and so on. They have to learn those at *some* point anyway.
Buxton Malaprop
Mad Physicist
Join date: 8 Jun 2005
Posts: 118
07-08-2006 09:34
Imaright: Hell, if that means I could buy Lindens through an E-TopUp card at all the places I could put credit on a pre-pay mobile phone (if I didn't have one on a contract), I'd vote for it!
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mookid Widget
Registered User
Join date: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 53
07-08-2006 09:40
From: Ordinal Malaprop
The simple fact is that allowing unrestricted access to communication channels occupied by adults and children alike will always allow adults to talk to children.

SL is actually far more censored and protected than most other avenues; it at least has a specific teen area, and a policy of removing teens from adult areas and vice versa, difficult though that may be. It is, I'm sorry, ridiculous to insist that SL is dangerous compared to MSN, Yahoo boards, bulletin boards in their thousands and so on. Have you looked at Myspace or Livejournal recently?

Censorware doesn't work; the only way of protecting kids is either to prevent them from accessing the net altogether and/or to teach them the skills to protect themselves, identify potentially dangerous situations and so on. They have to learn those at *some* point anyway.


The interactivity possible in SL is unparallelled - myspace and others are not even close to comparison who are you trying to kid? (no pun intended)

Children should not be confronted with issues such as sexuality - they shouldnt have to avoid sexuality. Sexuality should avoid kids (if you ignore this in real life you go to jail). There is no benefit in confusing children with a concept that they are not physically equipped to perform and not mentally developed to understand.

Stop defending something which is plainly wrong..?!
Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
07-08-2006 09:43
From: mookid Widget
The interactivity possible in SL is unparallelled - myspace and others are not even close to comparison who are you trying to kid? (no pun intended)

What, SL is more personally interactive than text and audio chat with webcams? (Because that is pretty standard these days.) I beg to differ.

If anything SL is a protective "barrier", as avatars need not have anything to do with RL details of their users.
mookid Widget
Registered User
Join date: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 53
07-08-2006 09:49
From: Ordinal Malaprop
What, SL is more personally interactive than text and audio chat with webcams? (Because that is pretty standard these days.) I beg to differ.

If anything SL is a protective "barrier", as avatars need not have anything to do with RL details of their users.


I dont know how many little girls you've had webcam conversations with recently.. but my tally is none.

If an older person was 'caught' harassing a kid in SL they could easily claim they had no idea etc. etc.

If you do that over msn on a webcam.. your likely to go to jail for a while.

Can you please stop and actually think about what you are suggesting.

Webcams are a fixed medium that wont change much; you need someone's address first. You need them to accept.. you then need them to engage in a webcam conversation (or whatever). In second life you can impose yourself however and whenever you want from multiple accounts so 'ignoring' or 'muting' breaks down as an option.

Add to that the fact that interactivity in SL can and will grow as the technology develops and you have one giant recipe for disaster. Open your eyes.
Cow Hand
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 292
07-08-2006 10:03
From: Schwanson Schlegel
How do you keep your 12 year old from doing these same exact things on the internet?


Yes, that is why I voted no.

Parents, no matter how much they want to, cannot assign their parental duties to others. The best way to keep your kids from engaging in unwanted behavior is to know what they are up to. Simple as that.

I don't understand these new age parents who let their children come and go as the children please. Be involved with what you children are doing!
Mickey McLuhan
She of the SwissArmy Tail
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1,032
07-08-2006 10:10
Um.. when did it become MY job to raise someone else's kids?

SL has done a whole lot to try to keep kids from seeing stuff that they shouldn't, I think what they've got up is just fine. They've created an area where kids can be kids and an area for adults.

I'm sorry if you think that we all have a responsibility to raise the kids of the people that think a computer is a nanny, who can't be bothered to actually RAISE their children and be PARENTS to them.

It's not my job. It's not your job. It's their job. If they don't want to do it, how is that my fault? How is that my responsibility?
Imaright Pratt
Registered User
Join date: 8 Jul 2006
Posts: 9
07-08-2006 10:13
Over-pampering can be just as negative for a child as under pampering.

Balance you boob. (Like a tight rope).
mookid Widget
Registered User
Join date: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 53
07-08-2006 10:18
Look, parents cannot constantly monitor their children's activities on the web. There has to be a limit to how long they can stand looking over their shoulders.

Do you not think that having a teen version of SL will merely make children wonder about what it is like in the 'Adult' version.. cos I bet you 99% of kids who use the Teen SL think like that.

I am not saying anything should be censored.. I'm saying ACCESS SHOULD BE RESTRICTED.

please PLEASE read what I'm saying. :(
Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
07-08-2006 10:20
From: mookid Widget
I dont know how many little girls you've had webcam conversations with recently.. but my tally is none.

If an older person was 'caught' harassing a kid in SL they could easily claim they had no idea etc. etc.

If you do that over msn on a webcam.. your likely to go to jail for a while.

Can you please stop and actually think about what you are suggesting.

Webcams are a fixed medium that wont change much; you need someone's address first. You need them to accept.. you then need them to engage in a webcam conversation (or whatever). In second life you can impose yourself however and whenever you want from multiple accounts so 'ignoring' or 'muting' breaks down as an option.

Add to that the fact that interactivity in SL can and will grow as the technology develops and you have one giant recipe for disaster. Open your eyes.

You can say "open your eyes" and so on as much as you like, but you don't seem to realise that the actual danger to children that comes on the web is when they quite willingly engage with others under false pretences, or knowing their background but not recognising that there are hazards there.

The problem is not random strangers sending Little Jenny pictures of their privates. Little Jenny will no doubt go "yuk!" and be disturbed by that, but can block the person and will likely not come to any deeper harm. Even if the harassment is persistent she can report such behaviour and log out of SL. It's nasty but it's easily stoppable and the cops will be around toot sweet.

The problem is that children often don't recognise the lies that people will tell and the consequences of giving personal information, and will often give out names, addresses, phone numbers, photos and so on to people that they really really should not be doing so with, and even arrange to meet them. This sort of thing goes on in all sorts of internet social arenas because it's simply reliant on communication and deception over whatever medium is used.
mookid Widget
Registered User
Join date: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 53
07-08-2006 10:28
I'm not sure whether you've really thought about this..

Kids aren't interested (or at least the same volume of kids aren't interested) in myspace blogs etc. but they ARE interested in a 3D world where they can walk around and interact with others. SL is going to become more and more accessable the more the system is developed and I do think that LL have a responsibility to the general public to put in place as many restrictions to keep children out as possible.

In my first 'day' in SL I saw enough inappropriate content to seriously affect an innocent boys mind (and I had no idea what I was doing or where I wanted to 'go').

It's not just lurid content that bothers me either.. it's the underlying messages that are given out by the society that forms there; e.g. you have to have the right body and the right clothes to fit in. You can argue that is not the case all you want but the amount of body and clothes shops that exist in SL allready would argue otherwise.
Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
07-08-2006 10:35
From: mookid Widget
Kids aren't interested (or at least the same volume of kids aren't interested) in myspace blogs etc. but they ARE interested in a 3D world where they can walk around and interact with others

Um. No. Absolutely not. Myspace etc are incredibly popular with kids, far more so than SL.
From: someone
61% of 13- to 17-year-olds have a personal profile on a site such as MySpace, Friendster, or Xanga. Half have also posted pictures of themselves online.

* Older teens (16-17s) and girls especially use the Internet for social interaction, meeting friends, and networking.

from a survey quoted here, and I've seen many other similar statistics. There are millions of kids on networking sites. You just have to browse the things to see how many there are, which is one of the reasons I don't use MySpace, too many annoying children....
mookid Widget
Registered User
Join date: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 53
07-08-2006 10:41
Think about the future.. if the problem was allready occuring then LL would be stuck in a legal battle right now. I am appealing to people's common sense and morality to remove these issues of unrestricted access before the kids really cotton-on to SL and this all gets wildly out of hand.
Mickey McLuhan
She of the SwissArmy Tail
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1,032
07-08-2006 11:13
No, you're asking us to raise other people's kids.

Kids aren't allowed on SL. Period. If they get on, they're breaking the rules.

If someone is so irresponsible that they let their kid get onto an adult oriented site or game, like SL, then there are far more problems ahead for that kid than seeing a simulated willy.

Don't expect me to change my behaviour because they can't raise their kids right.

And SL "must be careful" to do nothing but pay taxes and die.
"Must" implies a demand and you, nor any of us, has the right to demand anything of them other than what is promised.
LL has provided what was promised and much, much more.
To demand that they have a responsibility to censor themselves or restrict people using their product because some people don't take responsibility for their children is ridiculous and out of line.
Mickey McLuhan
She of the SwissArmy Tail
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1,032
07-08-2006 11:16
From: mookid Widget
I am appealing to people's common sense and morality to remove these issues of unrestricted access before the kids really cotton-on to SL and this all gets wildly out of hand.


No.. nonono..

You are demanding that people see it your way and are trying to impose your morality on us.

It is not LLs job to promote nor enforce your morality.
Chronic Skronski
SL Live Musician
Join date: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 997
07-08-2006 11:26
From: mookid Widget
Look, parents cannot constantly monitor their children's activities on the web. There has to be a limit to how long they can stand looking over their shoulders.

And when they can't, then internet access should not be allowed if you feel this way. Neither TV, the Internet, nor LL should be their nanny.
Richie Waves
Predictable
Join date: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,424
07-08-2006 11:33
I think kids just need to be thought in school or by thier parents not to trust ANYONE online.. not to give personal info not even the state they live in.. peadophiles are smart as hell and can ask around questions to get the info they want. another point would be never to bitch about your parent to them either.. that gives them the old "well I dont have to listen to my parents you should run away with me" line.... VERY entising to the grounded 13/14 year old.

SL being open to them isnt going to change anything.. they are just as susceptible to it in IRC and yahoo/AIM as they are in SL. so its down to being WARNED and being SMART.. not being LOCKED OUT FOR THERE OWN GOOD.
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no u!
Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
07-08-2006 11:39
From: Zoe Llewelyn
No, it is quite controllable...by the parent of the child. I get so tired of people who try to absolve themselves or other parents of their own resonsibility. 100% of the responsibility for the actions of your child belong to you as the parent and the child themselves. None of the responsibility belongs to a company like LL who has no access or control over your child's action. Only the parent has that control.

I am a parent. I have raised several children, and one of them is currently in teen SL. While she is a straight A student, a model and mature teen, and has never given me a moments trouble in her 13 years...I still do not allow her a computer in her own room (it's in the family room, right near my own) nor admin rights on that computer. Not because I don't trust her, but because I don't trust the people she might meet online. It's 100% my responsibility to educate her on how to handle herself both offline and online and how to manage everything from peer pressure to stalkers and harrassers. I can't do that if I don't know what she is doing, where and who she is doing it with and what she is experiencing.

It's my job as a parent to be involved in my child's life to the level that I know what she does online. Any parent that tries to place that responsibility on a company like LL has abdicated their parental role, IMHO.

The statement that the new system is not controllable is false. It's not controllabel by LL. It is 100% controllable by the person with true responsibility however...the account holder and parent of the account holder. Personal responsibility is dying a very sad death in western society and I must say I weep for that.

I agree, and mine weren't/aren't allowed to have computers in their rooms either.

These are separate issues, though: Whether or not a parent has abrogated their responsibility, versus whether or not a company has abrogated its responsibility.

The second concern is a legally valid one, quite apart from the first concern.

coco
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mookid Widget
Registered User
Join date: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 53
07-08-2006 11:41
well.. you obviously have deep seated issues that will not allow you to actually read what I'm saying.

So I won't bother anymore - however I will just point out that I never suggested SL should be censored. But most importantly the only 'nannying' that will happen in SL will occur by not forcing people to register their account against a credit card.

IF ACCOUNTS WERE REGISTERED AGAINST CREDIT CARDS NO ONE WOULD HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT KIDS AT ALL. THERE WOULD BE NO ISSUES WITH LOOKING OUT FOR/REPORTING KIDS, BANNING SOMEONE WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE A FUNCTIONAL PURPOSE, AND SL MIGHT ACTUALLY STAND THE TEST OF TIME INSTEAD OF JUST TURNING INTO A DISGUSTING PIT FULL OF FILTHY (MOSTLY UNNATRACTIVE) GEEKS HIDING BEHIND COMPUTER SCREENS RUBBING THEMSELVES ALL NIGHT WATCHING THEIR AVATARS HUMP FEMALE AVATARS THAT ARE REALLY JUST OTHER FAT BLOKES.

sorry if that offended anyone I know it's over the top but i'm trying to make a point and i'm not being listened to.

There is no future in SL if you just let the wierd geeky people take it over - you have to make it appeal to the wider audience by losing the "fat geeky bloke rubbing himself" image.
Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
07-08-2006 11:41
From: Richie Waves
I think kids just need to be thought in school or by thier parents not to trust ANYONE online.. not to give personal info not even the state they live in.. peadophiles are smart as hell and can ask around questions to get the info they want. another point would be never to bitch about your parent to them either.. that gives them the old "well I dont have to listen to my parents you should run away with me" line.... VERY entising to the grounded 13/14 year old.

SL being open to them isnt going to change anything.. they are just as susceptible to it in IRC and yahoo/AIM as they are in SL. so its down to being WARNED and being SMART.. not being LOCKED OUT FOR THERE OWN GOOD.



I agree. What is the fastest way to get a teenager to do something?

Tell them that you strictly forbid them to do it, “because, trust me, it's not good for you”.

Teach them, don't shield them.
mookid Widget
Registered User
Join date: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 53
07-08-2006 11:55
the internet isn't mostly populated by perves though.. why not protect your children so you don't have to make them needlessly paranoid? They don't need to be aware that there are certain individuals that want to do sordid things to them do they?

I think that if you actually consider what this will do to our children. Most knowledge is best learnt yourself than attributed to you by someone else.
Mickey McLuhan
She of the SwissArmy Tail
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1,032
07-08-2006 11:59
From: mookid Widget
well.. you obviously have deep seated issues that will not allow you to actually read what I'm saying.

So I won't bother anymore - however I will just point out that I never suggested SL should be censored. But most importantly the only 'nannying' that will happen in SL will occur by not forcing people to register their account against a credit card.

IF ACCOUNTS WERE REGISTERED AGAINST CREDIT CARDS NO ONE WOULD HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT KIDS AT ALL. THERE WOULD BE NO ISSUES WITH LOOKING OUT FOR/REPORTING KIDS, BANNING SOMEONE WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE A FUNCTIONAL PURPOSE, AND SL MIGHT ACTUALLY STAND THE TEST OF TIME INSTEAD OF JUST TURNING INTO A DISGUSTING PIT FULL OF .

sorry if that offended anyone I know it's over the top but i'm trying to make a point and i'm not being listened to.

There is no future in SL if you just let the wierd geeky people take it over - you have to make it appeal to the wider audience by losing the "fat geeky bloke rubbing himself" image.


First off, blowing up and "yelling", hurling insults and reacting this way because you're "not being listened to"? Yeah... let's see if we can figure out why people don't listen to you... Could it be the tantrums?

second, if you had phrased the question/topic as a suggestion, you may have received a better response. Instead you put it as a demand. "SL MUST be careful..." then went off about protecting kids and how it's SLs responsibility.

Here's a suggestion for you.

Rephrase the question... rephrase your spew of bile above... and MAYBE we'll be able to understand what you're trying to say.

Calling us "FILTHY (MOSTLY UNNATRACTIVE) GEEKS HIDING BEHIND COMPUTER SCREENS RUBBING THEMSELVES ALL NIGHT WATCHING THEIR AVATARS HUMP FEMALE AVATARS THAT ARE REALLY JUST OTHER FAT BLOKES" isn't the way to win us over, either.
cinda Hoodoo
my 2cents worth
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 951
Lets focus here....
07-08-2006 12:23
at first i was a bit in a taz about ppls payment statis as public profile info, then i got to thinkin and this is what i see the reasoning behind it.

SL is letting free accounts in now with no payment information as a backup for either them or us. Say you were in a group land deal, someone buys from you, and then a few days later you find out that (A) they had no money to buy it, or (B) maybe had money but the credit card was bad..alot of things happen that could cause a sale to go south, leaving you with alot more land on your hands then what you thought you would have, possibly increasing your land teir.

Maybe this is a good thing, depends which side of the fence your own, i dont think the info is a good source of information to see if you have an underager, but rather someone on a free account that either did not want SL to have further acess to more funds, or do not have funds, or credit, and i dont think you can assume anything..
Luciftias Neurocam
Ecosystem Design
Join date: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 742
07-08-2006 12:59
You're 2 weeks to late for this debate. Stale drama isn't entertaining.

And as for the substance of your argument

SL.IS.NOT.GOING.BACK.TO.MANDATORY.CREDIT.CARD.ID.

It's just not going to happen.

So with that in mind, and that fact that this is now a boring topic:

can't you drama about something else please?
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