Do You Think LL Is Too Easy On Griefers?

ANYTHING is abusable.

If hosting the event is possible while under sanctions, then they'd have to wait until the sanctions ran out to get paid. And they get to explain why they took the job under false pretenses.

As soon as he gets suspended any of his scripts associated with the raffle are going to start erroring out when someone interacts with them, because they won't be able to accept payment for tickets. Nobody's going to be in the dark about what's going on.

If Jane can't take the money, then the vendors won't sell the object, because they won't get the payment... it'd just be like you'd clicked "pay" and selected too low a number.

What SLExchange does is SLExchange's business. Of course they wouldn't be able to deliver any funds to the griefer until the suspension was over.

True. A short probation like this would be something between a warning and the kind of real suspension, for recurrent griefers the probation would get long enough that it'd hurt, regardless.

That's why I suggested restricting them from taking part in the economy, because that's the equivalent of XP and levels. Plus, it's less than a complete suspension, so they can apply it in cases where a suspension is too much.

Nobody's got enough credit cards to do this indefinitely. Who's going to get involved in credit fraud just to C4 a sandbox?

I have looked up that Ohio law, and it is indeed controversial, and is referred to as the "Scarlet Letter" law. Even given all the things wrong with having that law, the fact remains, no one convicted of drunk driving has to go through life with such a sign appended to his person, wherever he goes.

These license plates - ill-conceived though the whole notion is - are available to those people who would otherwise not be able to drive at all, as far as I could tell, so that they could drive to work and school. They represent a restricted driving license. These people would be restricted to driving only to school and to work in any case, with or without special plates.

In fact, these special plates have been available for a number of years (17 or something), but now Ohio judges are required to make people with restricted licences due to DUI use them or not drive at all. These people don't have to use the plates on company cars, if their job requires them to drive a company vehicle, unless they are the owner of that company. If their families also have to use the same car, well, too bad.

Advocates of the notion think shaming and humiliation will help stop people from drinking and driving; those who think the law is bad point to the fact that they can simply use other cars, or switch license plates. They also complain that the person's family may have to use the same vehicle, and it will have only the one plate. One college student with one dui complained that he had done his time in jail, and paid the fines or whatever, and since he had to drive to work and school, he had to use the plates. As a result, the police stop him all the time, making him late to work and school, and his car has been vandalized twice.

Aimee, I was not evoking anything to bolster my forum debate. Those examples WERE my debate. The Scarlet letter, and the tattooing of humans - those were the only things similar I could think of to the idea of branding people in SL, not knowing about the Ohio plates. And all three are bad - there is no reason to brand a human being. Anyone bad enough to be branded should be in jail anyway. Anyone bad enough to be branded in SL should be banned anyway.

As someone pointed out, there is a difference between branding for ethnic or slavery purposes, and branding for a crime (supposed or real), an angle I hadn't considered when thinking of previous brandings in history. But both reasons are wrong, and neither is being done in this day and age. The license plates are not only a bad idea, on humane grounds, but they aren't even analogous to the idea of branding people in SL, because you also don't have to be seen with one unless you are intending to drive.

I would be the last person to "trivialize the Holocaust." I was unaware of what this Godwin's law meant (and haven't looked it up yet on the Internet, having spent my time since I've been home looking up about the Ohio license plates). But it seems to me that to entertain the idea of branding human beings is what trivializes the Holocaust and the lessons supposed learned from it. Inhumane is inhumane, regardless of whether the recipients of inhumane treatment are law-breakers or innocents.

coco

The very types of people who get a kick out of taking down grids, causing DOS attacks on web sites, creatngs worms, viruses, and just generally being destructive porbably have no qualms about identify theft and using stolen credit card numbers, which are incredibly easy to come by for someone with the slightest inclination.

In World of Warcraft, it shows how many dishonorable kills you have committed on your profile, along with honorable ones (DKs are killing civilians). Is that branding someone a la the Nazis? Nope, nothing even remotely in the same league - neither would be indicating how many TOS violations someone has in their profile, or through color coding their name. That is why even evoking imagery reminiscent of the Nazi branding of human beings is sickening - it had no place in this discussion in the first place, and to take it there is so far overreaching that you are the one trivilaizing the entire matter by trying to compare some silly disciplinary issues in a game world with the horrors of the Nazis.

It is very easy to create an account without a credit card. There is now a choice between providing a credit card or cell phone number. All that is needed is access to a cell phone for a minute.

Good thing no one ever hinted that LL got the idea of SL from reading; "Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism" by V.I. Lenin

Yeah I didn't even think about the new cell phone option they added.

What about people who use push weapons on people, but who have no possibility of crashing a sim? What about people who drop particle bombs? These people get warnings right now.

When one L33t idiots quits another will pick it up. Since people act ike Chicken little about SL and take it all double dog serious, it is an extremely fun place to grief. Just read all the threads after the grid attacks and you can undrstand why multiple people would love to attack this grid over and over and over. Especially since most gamers think SL is pointless.

There are plenty of people to attack the grid and grief over and over. Banning people doesn't fix flawed code.

And let us be real about griefing. The majority of people complaining about griefing, are griefers. THey have beef with the person they are reporting. Like the mafia people.


The biggest griefers are the thieves and exploiters. Well, actually the largest griefer in all of SL is the flawed permissions system. Why isn't that issue pushed everyday until something is done about it?

Well, you know, once they do that... why the hell are you worrying about how you punish them for griefing? You go after them for fraud.

Ah, someone was paying attention to what I wrote The first time I saw one of these DUI plates was on a blinged out red sportscar with neons. I was behind them and I was like, well damn how did they get those plates? I mean they matched so well with the car and all I thought they were specially made. Then a few months later I found out what they were for and I no longer wanted them...


I personally try to stay away from the normal griefer-type places: Sandboxes, I got tired of being shot at while building or ran into or shot into space. Got tired of teleporting to the sim and end up stuck in an invisible sphere someone has placed so strategically at the landing area so people can't move. Now I just build on my land or my Partners sim. Clubs, I don't go to clubs anymore, they seem to be a haven for annoyances. The sim I own land in is very peaceful, everyone is pleasant and considerate of their neighbors. No ugly or obtrusive builds, a nice serene living area where people mind their own. I have often wanted more land as my 2560 isn't enough for the prims I would like to have, but I seriously doubt I would ever move because of the worry of moving to a bad area and being unhappy.



As far as my opinion on whether LL is too lenient with griefers, I say yes. For instance, I had a friend who was being harrassed on a continuous basis for about 4 months by a person who would put C4's all over her land, leave her nasty notecards, and somehow end up in places that she was at even tho his card was cancelled when it all started. Basically stalking her. A Mentor ended up coming to her land to witness what was going on. The grieferboy had put a bunch of C4's back on her land and he was trying to say he didn't do it. He said that someone had 'put his name on the object to set him up' He really thought people would believe that. Sorry but if you drop something on the ground, it is gonna say it's yours. Then there's the fact that her security orb showed him at her land at different times of the day when she wasn't on. he said it lied too. He ended up getting sussed 3 days and came back only to do it all over again and as far as I know didn't get in trouble again over it, even tho reports were made. No one can tell by looking at his profile what an ass and manipulator he is, it would be nice if there was a system that would show us differently. Just like the yellow DUI plates, I wanna know who to steer clear from...

The #1 reason I am against the color coding idea is because of the LL rating system. It was excessivly flawed from the begining. They tried to fix it by making ppl pay excessive L$ to rate someone. Again that did not work. What we are left with is just positive ratings. They did not even attempt to include any negative information about their subscribers. I do not believe it is in the best interest of LL to make their customers be seen in a negative light.

#2 A true griefer would look at it as a badge of honor "I'm a real bad ass watch out!"

I do however have one idea for the hard core griefers who wish to stay in SL. Move them, inventory, L$, tier all of their existance to a seperate grid. Let them flourish amongst their own kind

edit: oops nearly forgot Redemption: If they can keep their record clean for a year they then will be allowed (if they choose) to return to the main grid. But they will not be put back where they were, they will have to find their own land and place on the main grid.
Cat

Great idea! I wish I had thought of it!

Um, the topic is "Do you think LL is too easy on griefers". Not "do you think LL is too easy on grid attackers and sim crashers". Most griefers don't attack the grid or even attack sims, they look for a bunch of green dots and C4 them.

Locking down SL to the point where griefing isn't possible wouldn't leave an SL worth playing in. No particles, no push, no self-rep, no physical objects other than nerfed vehicles, ...

The only beef I've got with the people I've reported is they dropped C4 on me when I wasn't doing anything but standing around and talking. That's apparently only worth a "warning".

Semantic games with the word 'griefer' ignored

Yes, we should feel bad for drunk drivers. We should make them feel special and not give the public any indication that they broke the law by getting into a car drunk. We should pat them on the hand and give them McDonalds gift certificates. I don't have any sympathy for these people. What I do have sympathy for is all the people who have died due to drunk driving and their families. People like my my 10 yr old friend growing up who was killed by a drunk driver while riding her bike on the sidewalk, for my friends' sister and her 3 friends who were killed by a drunk driver when they were only 16 and driving to the pool after getting her license. Those are the people I have sympathy for.

I'm sick of this..."Oh lets feel bad for the law breaker, lets protect them as much as we can" crap. It's time to stop coddling and start laying down the law...

It has been my experience that credit card companies, banks, and the police are quite lax on pursuing credit card fraud. The problem is so widespread, and as long as the bank or credit card company somehow gets their money back, they just ordinarily don't care to pursue it. Prosecuting them under computer crime statutes holds more weight than trying to go after credit card fraud (which in this case would be minimal anyway).

Since Nazi was used in this thread is it already completely off topic and fucked anyway, once Nazi is envoked in a thread it is a free for all, so at this point the topic is any damn thing anyone wants.

Dude, SL is nerfed as is. Vehicles are a freaking joke. If they were any worse they just wouldn't exist.


You are missing the point. There is no real way to stop griefing. It just is not going to happen. It is like trying to stop crime. In an online world, punishment is not a real way to stop people from griefing. The best thing LL can do is offer residents better ways to pretect themselves from griefing. Residents need privacy tools, better land tools, and better collision etc protection.

Ok I have to disagree with this. You can't brand people as criminals because the system is flawed. People in this country can end up in on death row for crimes they did not commit, and that is with a full legal process. There is no legal process in SL,you can't defend yourself and the rules are enforced on the whim of whatever Linden is on duty. I don't think people records in SL should be made public for everyone to see as long as people have no possible way to defend themselves from false reports.

I support Mothers of Drunk Drivers. As in, I send them money and I'm a member of it; I don't keep up with all their doings, however. I will have to check their stance on this particular tactic Ohio has taken, because if they approve of it, I will express my disapproval.

We should take away drunk driver's ability to drive, throw them in jail for lengthy sentences, wage hefty fines, put themon trial for vehicular homicide. We should not give them yellow license plates.

In SL, the question should not be how to identify each player, so each wears his record on his sleeve, but how LL is going about punishing them.

And as I said in the beginning of this thread, I was thrilled when Philip announced turning in the names of those who took down the grid to the FBI. Those people should obviously not be playing, ever, at all, again. It is an internet crime - I mean, a real one.

For the rest of the things people get warnings for, the question should be only the schedule of punishments allotted. Branding of people would be shameful to US, not to them, and detrimental to everyone and to all causes, not the least of which is LL's.

coco

I hope to hell they don't car-pool to the meetings.

At first glance it does seem like it would be cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the Constituiton, but actually there are many states where violators of "shame laws" have actually been sentenced to some kind of task that is the equivalent of the public stocks, and these sentences have been upheld by State Supreme Courts!

There was one man in California who stole mail and as part of his sentence he was ordered to stand in front of a post office wearing a sign that said "I stole mail." The California Supreme Court dismissed his appeal of this sentence and allowed it to stand.

The branding cant be permanent, like wearing a permanent Scarlet Letter A on a chest if you cheat on a partner. but if its a temporary identification of an infraction it would be an effective deterrent...I THINK! Not sure though because some personalities seem to take pride in being branded as a wrong doer and laugh about it as if its a badge of honor.

I do think that the police blotter should include names of offenders punished. It adds credibility to the process and why not, after all, we can read the real life names of defendants charged in real life police blotters as long as they are not minors and its not a sensitive sex related offense.

I also thing it would be a good idea to have a small comment section below the police blotter entry where the member is named, to allow the member a small comment in his or her defense. This would add balance and allow us to hear the "defense" if one exists.

I know that sometimes sanctions are issued undeservedly, for whatever the reason, and even if this is a rare occurance we have to be careful not to drag that poor member into a public Hall of Shame.

But, I think that repeated offenders who grief should be identifiable in some way.

I don't know about World of Warcraft, or about dishonerable kills, but that sounds pretty game-like to me, i.e., almost a part of the game.

In SL, people get TOS violations for all kinds of things. For example, saying the F word in a PG area. Yet I notice that word being used here in the forums - supposedly also a PG area - and no one bats an eyelash. Nothing whatever would be served by branding a person according to their number of TOS violations. Be sickened all you like - I find the thought of making people wear their records equally distressing. The principle of marking people to shame and ostracize them is the same, wherever it is applied.

coco

I know there are instances of punishments like that, and I believe there are also instances where the punishment didn't stand up in court.

But even a temporary identification of an infraction in SL would be unjust, even with a little line for commentary, if we weren't also able to see - as in real life - who the plaintiffs were (the people who brought charges) and who the judge and jury were (the Lindens and their panels), and read the court records.

coco

Ok, I didn't read this thread and I'm not going to. But I just want to say this, in case nobody's said it before: Labeling people like Aimee proposes has been standard practice in MUDs for the past... 20 years?
Nobody's ever complained about it. In some MUDs, there are even police NPCs that will automatically attack and kill you if you are labeled an agressor. Why should SL be different?