Do You Think LL Is Too Easy On Griefers?

Labelling is wrong. It forces individuals to carry around the stigma of past crimes, and does not all them the chance to reform. A system of justice without compassion is merely a system of revenge.

I think the notion that people's names should be in the police bloter, and remain so until thier term is served is a good one. But if you brand people as past girefers, then thye will always be judged as a griefer, whether theyare curretly griefing or not. It seems petulant to me.

From: Jake Reitveld

Labelling is wrong. It forces individuals to carry around the stigma of past crimes, and does not all them the chance to reform. A system of justice without compassion is merely a system of revenge.

I think the notion that people's names should be in the police bloter, and remain so until thier term is served is a good one. But if you brand people as past girefers, then thye will always be judged as a griefer, whether theyare curretly griefing or not. It seems petulant to me.

Repeat offenders having a permanent record for me works because it serves a deterrent that if they don't shape up they will have to carry that label around, like it or not. Same thing with RL, when you apply for a new company you are as part of proceedure have to submit a police clearance (and a complete history including Police recrds) and HR will (depending on the position, if it's a managerial position this is practiced) for them to call up your previous employer and ask what kind of employee you are (someone pointed this out in an earlier thread somewhere).

I would like to give first time (and MAYBE second timer but that will depend on the kind of offense) offenders a second chance, a clean slate and all. But frankly if they don't learn the first time I highly doubt they will never learn the second or third time around.

As an alternative, the permanent police blotter in the profile can be erased if and only if they keep a clean slate for....maybe three months. Then it's wiped clean.

Ok I ring to this topic.....

Today Was one of those days you wished A linden lived in a club your part of run.
Well Today 2 old school players( role players ), bitching about one of only real vendor we have our club. We don`t make money but provide a adult place for people to relax and enjoy their second time.
For about 40 mins or more they just kept bitching about this one vendor about copywrite rules.................Well personaly i can care less about THESE two people veiws of (WHAT IS ART) or ( WHAT IS COPYWRITE ABUSE). In real life I studied and produced many diff styles of art and history that goes behind it. So I Don`t buy the cry baby views of what is copy write abuse is or not. So after about 35+ minutes later i had enough and ejected them out........... Why? because i had about 10 members in the club enjoying themself wanting to get away from their real world and enjoy themselves. The youngest comes back in on the Linden Goverment land( between the club and Goverland)...... well i called a Linden...Well the youngest one kept crying the copywrite cry baby winer chat for about turned out 1.5 hour( with a linden in presents. ) The other which was on my ignore from a long time in the last scripted me a messges saying i ws banned in all her shops ( BIG DEAL i never used her products any more for over a year ). Besides I i have better sources of places to go for products then her places. What really bothers me is they "BEND THE RULES" standing on goverment linden land screams "COPY RIGHT ABUSE" in the the club .....So i can`t eject them from the land. BUT they can stand there (ON THE PROPERTY LINE) screaming (I AM STANDING UP FOR WHAT THE BELIEVE) BLA BLA BLA.......ANd Just continue to stress the people that are in the club trying to enjoy themselves.......( Freedom of speach) well its great but the way they did it just is just a norm of(TWO FACED) views thats causing others stress in the game just because of their own narrow views are not the same of their own......OMG these people need to relax and breath real air inside of second air.......

I only throw them out because they cause the people in the club stress, but like these type of goody goody kids they only see bad and never any good in the world....It was just unreal AFter i tried to explain upteen time it was not about copy right abuse but them stressing the people in the club.Then did the youngest on start attcking me person insults..........

I have much respect of the lindens coming in and doing a job that only a few can really do......at times its not easy. But alleast i can count on them to do what they believe is right.

Thanks for reading.......

Usagi

Remember, it's not lying it's "A gift for fiction".

But in the spirit of the truth, i'm going to fix a few of your statements here to better represent reality.



Actually it was about 4 minutes, and the conversation mainly consisted of us talking about how absurd it was for someone to sell Royo and Vallejo art for 150L$ when they had nothing to do with the creation nor production of the art itself. As an artist myself, I would hate to think that someone would take my art and sell it at 1500% inflation to what they paid to upload it.



You have an interesting concept of time, since you ejected us by the time we had said about 7 lines of text in the subject. After about 4 minutes of talking about this we were ejected and banned. We most definately didn't spend more than an hour talking about it. And in fact the conversation was pretty much over when you hit us with the eject.



I IMed you inquiring to why we were ejected as to which I was ignored, so I stood up on the linden land next to it and IMed some people in silence. Also i'm the older one of the two not the youngest. And it wasn't an hour and a half, it was more like 20-30 minutes of conversation to said Linden.



Actually, I never said a thing in public chat until you called in the Linden, I doubt any of your "customers" even realized I was there unless you mentioned me.



This is always the ironic part. We were having a conversation about this rip off prices about the art for roughly 5 minutes and were at an end of said conversation when we were both hit with Ban/ejects. The place was getting boring anyways and we were probably just going to leave, but then when we were suddenly banned and ejected my friend turned her eyes to revenge and I wanted to know why we were being banned. If you'd asked us to stop or warned us at all we probably would have, but I never heard a word from you.

So in your valiant effort to lower stress and drama, you took two people who had no intention of causing any drama and made a Linden-sponsered ordeal of it.



Actually when I asked about our banning in IMs you ignored me, and when I figured out that it was the art rip off conversation you ignored me. If I recall there was no conversing of whether or not it was a copyright abuse or even any explanation to anything at all. All you said to me in IMs was "I'm calling a Linden" and "this IM is ignored". Also I'm happy to say I remained civil and polite the entire time, and never resorted to personal insults though sometimes I did feel like it.




So I don't really have anything to say on the subject itself though, I just wanted to correct the mistruths put into this reaccessment of the events last night, try to get your facts straight next time Usagi, even if stretching and breaking the truth does help your cause, because when someone points out the reality of a matter it shows the truth and it also shows you're willing to bend the truth and/or don't realize what the truth even is anymore, which reflects badly.

Ciao.

I know this person would jump in here!!!!!! Oh boy You really Believe you going to post my name on this forum and get away with breaking forums rules...... Well Again as i told you and the other person fate..........YOU WERE STRESSING THE MEMBERS OUT IN THE CLUB AND THAT IS WHY YOU WERE ASKED TO LEAVE. CASE CLOSED...............

Welcome To My Ignore Listing

A background check is not a label. I support the notion that the offense be maintained in the police blotter, and i have always said we need transparency in the system-at minumu the name of the offender and the nature of the offense as well as the punishment provided.

But I don't think people need to be walking around SL carrying some sort of scarlet letter. That concept was reprehensible in hawthorne's time, and it is reprehensible now. Just because something is allowed under law does not make it right. A person should serve their time and be set back out on the world, hopefully reformed. LL keeps a record of the offenders, and repeat offenders should be dealt with.

As awlays the forums follow the typical herd response of human society: it makes us uncomfortable-ostracize it. Labelling is not the answer. Better enforcement, a transparent discipline system and rule of law is.

I was just correcting all the obvious mistruths you put in the post.

And....I can't break forum rules by using your name in an event when you already posted that you were a part of it in a previous post.

Lastly, again. No one seemed to be stressed out except you, and one does not generally ask by hitting the eject button. By definition, asking involves typing.

I figured if you were going to take a "CASE CLOSED...." drama into the forums (in the spirit of being a non-drama person I suppose?). That I should reply.

Frankly I don't think most people are going to give a damn.

No, not much of a damn honestly.... save to say, stealing art does make baby jesus cry.

Actually, if you'd even bothered to check the vendors properly you would have seen that they did not belong to Heaven or the PSC. Right clicking and clicking on edit, then on more would have shown you the name of the person who owned the vendors. I suggest you take it up with him.

I find it strangely coincidential that this is the second time a PSC commissioner has been griefed today (Tuesday). Another recieved an un provoked script attack which booted him from the game. A further coincidence is the push bomb attack carried out yesterday on Heaven itself.

Heaven and the PSC will not bow down to those who will use illegal methods to try to drive us away. We shall use all legal means to defend ourselves, we will not stoop to low tactics that have been used against us in various attempts to drive our patrons away . However, we do reserve the right to use force as a last resort, to defend ourselves and our patrons.

And to bring the thread back on track, Greifers should recive a life ban on first conviction. Period.

I agree, Aimee. I LOVE the idea of grids that allow people to engage in behaviour not everyone is comfortable with. For example: maybe we could have a socialist grid where people pay taxes to fund common interests; an 'own a gun or else' type grid where people can shoot one another and get shot at whim; a 'no sex ever' grid where people who are uncomfortable with sex in sl can go to be free of pixellated nudity, porno, and overheard snippets of cyber; a 'test the limits' sim where people can play rough with the simulator, build fetus factories and wear silly hats. Why not have different communities that reflect different values and expectations for an ideal second life?

I'll be on the vehicle centric grid!

And if you'd bothered to read my reply you would have noticed that I never blamed PSC or heaven for the vendors but was just talking about how people sell other's art with my friend when Usagi came up without a word and ejected and banned us both. I've seen so many people selling Royo's and Vallejo's art that i've given up on doing anything about it and have been reduced just to offhanded coments to friends when it's sold at a particularly ridiculous price like 150L$. I noticed the owner and I noticed that the group deeded to the vendor wasn't the same as the land, but I wasn't going to cause any drama by contacting owners of the vendor or the people who host the vendor itself, I was just commenting on it to a friend.

And I hardly consider this event as a PSC being "griefed", All that happened was us talking about the vendor then us getting ejected and banned, and then me standing on Linden land next to the place talking in IMs. No one was griefed then.

If people would repect those that in a "CHOSEN" sim where they want to spend their second life, instead of going on and PUSHING their owner personal values and scream "its my rights" to stand up to me beliefs bla bla.....We all would have a better life on sl..

Back to the issue.................. Those two griefts were ejected based on their distrubing the peace in the club and not their issues this person battering around here.......end of story

The PSC does not bow down to griefers (whatever form of attacks it might be). We Only bring the best setting for its users while in the club. We are in all right to eject anyone causing problems to the members and "USERS" of the PSC club.

He didn't break any forum rules..you posted you were part of it, and he merely did quotes. Your posts are irrational and argumeneative..his are calm and rational. Wonder who I believe?

Quit lying about this so called greifer..stop with the slander

I wonder how many people are now going to stay away from this club because of it's strange and draconic definition of griefers? I know I am

Example: griefer Jill is sick of being held accountable for her poor behaviour by citizen Joe. Citizen Joe gets his account hacked and griefer Jill (in Joe's avie) drops turd bombs until Joe is given a red nametag. Accounts are sometimes hacked or borrowed by drunken friends who see one's computer on.

My account was hacked. I never shared my password with anyone and noone lives with me to access my computer. I stopped the person in the nick of time with the assistance of a Linden, and was able to change my password back before they got around to changing the email for the account.

So yeah, maybe I am afraid of being there myself (though I know you were talking to Coco). I fear this not because of my behaviour, but because I have been outspoken enough here and there to attract the occasional ire of ne'er-do-wells.

Pardon, but... Hunh?

I do not understand how this relates to my quote at all. I was talking about a way to give people what they desire most: the ability to live around other people who share their values. In fact, this would preclude the behaviour you describe. It sounds, though, like there are two very very different sides to this story.

I don't consider someone having a difference of opinion with me to be griefing, so long as that person is civil and respectful of my patrons, staff and self. Having dealt with Real griefers (those who shut down sims, halt events, sexually or verbally harass, shoot missiles at me, etc.) I still think those folks should have a right to be in SL, but just not around people who don't share their 'game.' I should have the ability to choose not to be prey. They should have the ability to stalk and harass one another endlessly. Win/win.

Lest someone get the wrong idea here, Persephone, let me say that unlike what Enabran suggested earlier, my behavior in this and in all games and irl has been about as impeccable as you can get.

For Enabran to suggest anything otherwise is quite unfair, not to mention ludicrous. He just does it cause he knows it pisses me off.

coco

...

Civil is the key, which i tried to be. If those people would instead used personal IMs instead of chatted in public chat distrubing the members in the club( mind you this went on for 40 plus mins ). That was my only case of them me ejecting them.......I told them leave she but she continued chatting and standing there like it was some sort og protest thing ( mind you she was on lindenland and causing problems in the club.
FOr the point having the right to be on sl i never said they should not be. But Pushing ones own views in public and causing others around them grief, while these members are TRYING to enjoy their sl is just plain wrong.

This is the last of this i replying to......I repeated many times why these people were removed......
on a personal note.....Its the personal insults in the game that was a little childish in my mind,why would anyone insult who is trying to make the members in the club feel happy.
I love those cut and paste winers

Ever seen those Johnny Manners (or whatever it was) little panels they had in those highlights for kids? (I used to read those so very long ago), basically it'd show a kid who had no manners and one who did and say that the latter was correct. Let me recreate that for a show of civility since you "tried" but didn't seem to understand that it's not civil.

Civil: Walk up to the people, "Excuse me, but can you refrain from this subject, it's bothering the people here and i'll have to eject you if you continue."

Not Civil: Catch the people talking of a subject you don't like, immediately hit the ban button then when they ask why they were banned, don't reply.

If the former had happened you certainly would have avoided the drama.

And again, (unfortunately it's a pet peeve of mine when people misrepresent the facts of a situation to shine better light on themselves) it wasn't 40 plus minutes it'd be closer to 5. And if your members were so discontented by our glib of a conversation then I'd have imagined that they'd have said something as well instead of chatting casually and acting (rather well) like they didn't care.

I hate to think that i'm contributing to said drama, and because of the aforementioned pet peeve I'm finding it hard not to reply, but i'd like to think that someone who's so commited to stopping drama and stress would have let the issue die the moment I left and not took it to the forums to continue it at her leisure.

Of course, from the looks of things you seem to like to start drama then hit the ignore button and blame everyone else for it.

Segregating the grid makes little sense to me.

It's already broken into PG and Mature, and weapons can be set as allowed or not. Assault on a non-assault sim/parcel is a punishable offense.

One of the virtues of SL is its diversity in people.

If your aim is to prevent griefing -- well, segregating the grid won't do anything to stop that. If anything, it would ENCOURAGE it.
"Hey, let's go onto the peaceful sim and shoot as many people as we can before we get caught!"
"Hey, let's go to the prude sim and be as sexually explicit as possible before we get caught!"

It becomes a game to griefers, at that point. Same with labelling. If you give people a 'trophy' by coloring their name red, true griefers will embrace it as a badge of honor. And then they'll walk the fine line of semantics to keep from being permabanned. It's easy to do, it's been proven in just about every online social atmosphere, EVER.

There's no "war on griefing" that can be fought. You just enjoy your time in SL, and when someone breaks the rules, report it with a calm head, and get on with your life. There's no reason to even mention the incident on the forums ever. It will resolve itself.

Just my 2L$ (since they aren't divisible by 100...)

You posted your own name in the forums, claiming you had been griefed. Artemis did not name your name, simply replied to YOUR POST. I can imagine how a simple discussion of it being lame to sell uploaded copyrighted artwork was incredibly stressful on your poor patrons. To claim that even remotely constitutes griefing is just plain silly. Maligning those involved and misrepresenting what actually happened is a lot worse than anything you claim that they did.