Either Philip's account got hacked - or dwell is gone.

Yeh, but in no other MMO does the failure of some random joe I don't even know reduce the quality of the game for me.
Er, no, Communism is the theoretical system where the workers control the means of production. Fascism is the merger of the government and corporations to produce a powerful ruling body. Socialism is the merger of the government and corporations for the benefit of the workers. Capitalism is the system where the workers are hired by the people who control the means of production. Any of these systems may be based on a free market (which is what you seem to be thinking of), or on a centrally controlled market, htough some tend to favor one more than the other.
In other words, the workers control the means of production. That means that SL is a Free-market Communist economic system.

hahahahaha

That's a joke, right? Hilarious!

"No, I can't make it to an event at 6:30. I have to whiz my avatar."

Likewise, the argument for eliminating dwell is that it wasn't and isn't Linden Lab's job nor responsibility to reduce these costs. SL's attraction is the actual world itself, not the individual creations inside (or that's how I see it). The selling point for the game should not be "They have this wonderful thing in there." (because as we've all seen, great things can disappear, even with both DI and dwell funding) The selling point should be "Look at this wonderful world where you can do anything you can imagine. See the things that others have created and be inspired to make your own!"

Originally, it benefited LL to have users creating good content, as it showed new residents what could be accomplished. Now that there is a plethora of content ingame, all of which can be a selling point, and with several people already making their livings inside SL, there is no reason to keep paying for more content than is needed to sell their product.

And note, when I say their product, I mean the program and world itself, not the things contained therein.

Physical content is my sort of shorthand for "making things that you sell." Which could include houses, scripts, animations, clothes - things that are "physical" in the sense that you keep them in inventory and use them.

Non-physical content is my shorthand for "providing entertainment or services." Such as clubs, games, game shows, plays, newbie places, land rentals and sales, museums, amusement parks, fashion shows, etc. - things that are more experiences or services than physical items that can be kept in inventory.

The psychology of each is different.

coco

those aren't things people want, they're things people need. If you didn't get hungry, would you pay 5 bucks for a hotdog? If you could put your car in your back pocket, would you pay for parking? If you didn't need to sleep or could slip into hyperspace for the night like your avatar, would you pay for a hotel room?

Your avatar has no needs, only wants.
Disneyland has that as well... it's called "souvenirs". You buy souvenirs at Disneyland because you're unlikely to go there more than once every year or so. You don't buy souvenirs at places you go every day, at least you don't do it every day... but you still eat.
You know, approximately zero percent of the places that I spend time (and dwell) at are clubs. If every club in SL turned into a shower of undifferentiated particles I wouldn't bat an eye. The places I'd miss if this makes them shut down or scale back are places that would be less valuable if they did the kinds of things that people are suggesting to replace dwell.

My original character never got reputation points from oral or any other kind of simulated sex, but made more from the rep bonus than from basic stipend... and this was after the rep bonus was nerfed, but I was competing with people who had thousands of rep points they'd earned at rep parties.
Please re-read my comment for content. I didn't say premium members would be paying to visit places. I said that a small percentage of the money a premium member was paying LL anyway (the monthly fee plus unused tier) go to the people who are the reason that member is paying that money because that's where they hang out.
Then pick different numbers. They're an example, the argument doesn't hinge on them being that value, or ten times that value, or one tenth that value. Pretend I wrote "X" and "Y" instead. Peg them to the Lindex, Anshe Chung's bank account, or what Phllip linden paid for breakfast. It doesn't matter.

You can even cap it, scale it, or apply a curve to it. The point is that premium members are paying LL money, and they're paying LL money because they find LL worth being in, and if the places they spend their time in are less expensive to operate... because dwell pays for part or all of their tier, you're more likely to have and keep places that attract paying members.
I don't particularly care for this option either, but it's something that would provide the same benefit as dwell without hurting the value of the Linden dollar. If you're absolutely set on not having those extra Lindens come from Linden Labs, there's only one place it can come from.
It would be an in-character mechanism for simulating the spending on needs (like food... say, snacks at a ball-game) that subsidises wants (like the ball game).
Um, no, it's almost exactly the opposite effect of camping chairs.
I've explained this one about 10 times today in this thread.

Err, you'll have to explain this in more detail, because I'm not following. There's no shortage of places to put places. There are no people who wanted to create something but couldn't because there wasn't any spot left to create it, so they had to wait.

Yes, it's true that some people will leave SL and new people will come in, but the comment I'm referring to was that somehow removing one kind of content would cause another kind to be created... and I don't see how that would follow.
Just because something's permanent doesn't mean it's unchanging, and in a world of change the lack of change becomes surprising, and thus interesting.

It's no sillier than the idea of Linden Labs leeching off the work of builders who attract the paying customers that pay their rent... and then charging them hundreds of dollars a year for the privilege of building their virtual world for them.

It doesn't matter whether it was their responsibility or not. the question is only does in-game content attract paying customers.

If the answer is "no", then they might as well shut down LindeX, eliminate the Linden Dollar, and go on a "I'm making cool stuff" economy. If the selling point is "look at what you can do" then there's no need for the Linden Economy at all.

If the answer is "yes", then it's in their interests to promote in-game content that attracts paying customers. If a mechanism they're using to do that isn't working as well as it should, then the intelligent thing for them to do is to to change it.

So it's not about their job or their responsibility, it's about whether they're being smart or stupid.
You spend all your time on your own land and never buy anything?
It's not. First, its *one* selling point, for *some* people. Second, it's "they have wonderful things in there". And the more wonderful things they have in there, the better a selling point that is. That's why they have a "rights system", to encourage people to create wonderful things. The problem is that there's other kinds of "wonderful things" that people create that Linden Labs actually penalizes you for creating.

And that's not smart.
So you also advocate that at some point they should eliminate the rights system and open the permissions on everything, once there's "enough" content? Or maybe they should charge per prim or texture for transferring content, so that people who make stuff you *sell* are on more of a level playing field with people who make stuff you *visit*...
Gotcha. The things contained therein don't matter, they can be ignored in any discussion of the economy. Got that.

I don't keep my house in my inventory, I keep it on my land! The copy in my inventory is just a backup.
Well, let's see. A place isn't a service, so it's entertainment. But how is a place I'm in any more "entertainment" than the clothes I wear. I mean, I don't *need* either of them, my avatar doesn't need a house or a shirt. I have both just for the style of it.
Indeed, but that doesn't mean the value of each is different, or that there should be a huge set of tools designed to make it easy to reward the creators of one kind, but the ones designed to make it easy to reward the creators of the other are "free money".

Original Hypothesis: Dwell/Traffic would reward those people who managed to create compelling (subjective) content for use and enjoyment on the grid.

Observed results: Dwell/traffic is gamed horribly; cynical attempts at grabbing mroe money/more profit / more traffic results in camping chairs, dance pads, tringo parlors, yard sales, and super hot sexy thong contests, copied endlessly with no creativity.

Solution: Remove the gamed system and watch capitalism take over. Natural selection's a bitch.

This isn't about LLab stepping on the people who make the stuff in-world. It's about them removing a system that's been horribly broken for at least a year now.

Those who want their clubs to continue will think of another way to keep them afloat, and keep their heads above the herd. Those who don't, perish.

Sorry, that's capitalism and a free market.

LF

Hahahahahah WHAT? 'Dwell exists in RL' I don't even know where to begin here. I leave for a few hours to go to work and apparently people start drinking oven cleaner because that's the only way I can explain 'Dwell exists in RL'.

I think I understand what you are trying to say, though, in that business like money. This is true! This is why movie theaters charge $5 for a soda that cost them a dime and $6 for a bucket of popcorn that cost them a quarter. This is also why LL is ceasing this particular instance of THROWING MONEY INTO THE TOILET. As I understand it, dwell was originally put into place to stimulate the economy at the same time that it stimulated creativity. Whether or not you think that it succeeded, the fact of the matter is that it has outlived its usefulness; and its continuation is presenting an economic problem for LL (my suspicion is that it wasn't a big deal until L$ <-> US$ exchanging became popular), so why not toss it? Only good things can come of it.



YOUR MONTHLY PAYMENT TO LL PAYS FOR THE ABILITY TO OWN LAND AND AN INCREASED STIPEND AND THAT IS ALL. FULL STOP. You are not entitled to anything from your tier payment that is at all being affected by this decision. Is your ability to own land being threatened by dwell going away? No. Is your $500 base stipend going away because of dwell going away? No. DWELL GOING AWAY HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM TO DO WITH ANYTHING YOUR TIER PAYMENT AFFECTS. I am sorry to shout but this has been explained like, what, three times in this thread already? and you're still not getting it.

Edit:



YES THANK YOU.

Linden leeching is a pretty unimpressive argument. If you don't want to pay your own way, then don't. The Lindens are providing you a service. If you're not comfortable paying for it under terms that don't include you being paid to pay them money, then don't participate.

I'm happy to see dwell go because I will dance a dance of joy when camping chairs DIE. For businesses, I don't see the issue. For people who host events, this sucks, but chargable events have long been looming on the horizon.

What concerns me is the fate of some specific, valuable assets in SL which are not businesses, are not hosting events, and (I assume but have no idea) probably quite dependent on dwell to help cover costs. Specifically, but just off the top of my head:

- Lost Gardens of Apollo (yes it has a shopping area and does weddings but I don't know how much that covers in relation to total overheads.)
- Ivory Tower of Primatives
- Shelter (which I know gets some corporate sponsorship but still)
- Teazers (although they seem hooked up with LL in some sort of deal so I'm prepared to be less concerned about that.)

These all need to not disappear off the face of SL. That's all I'm saying.

Dwell was and is an incentive to have property it was somwthing even as little help it gave was something for traffic.
I for one have a club abd didn't depend on dwell totally.
But on the same note why take something away from me to help increase the overall cost of something I don't want and or will ever use?
Secondlife will outprice itself overall with actions such as this.
No way around the love of money is the root of all evil.
I don't want to get rich ingame never was my goal never will be and moves like this are just a slap in the face telling me what really matters to LL and what doesn't matter to them.
I for one don't want a handout but if I have something I sure don't like it when its taken away.
Other posts there were people suggesting to charge for events.
Why keep taking when it can be freely given?
And yes this will not stop me from going about buisness as usual,It just pains me to lose for not a damn thing that'll ever be of use to me.
Creating competition is a good thing let the L$'s ocmpete with what folks want to buy and sell them for.

You know, I believe I am agreeing with you, and have been agreeing with you.

But you're confusing me now.

The house and whether you put it on your land or keep it in your inventory is completely beside my point. You do have it in your inventory at one point, and you can use it and continue to use it, and see it, and maybe even put it in a garage sale, because IT IS A THING. Physical content.

The other kinds of content I'm talking about - which I listed many examples of earlier - are NOT THINGS. You cannot put them in your inventory and go home and take them out and use them and see them and show them to others and keep them or maybe put them in a garage sale. Non-physical content.

The psychology of the purchaser toward each is different.

My view:

Changes shouldn't always favor those who make THING-TYPE CONTENT, as opposed to those who make the NON THING-TYPE CONTENT (i.e., the entertainment, place, or service you cannot purchase and put in your inventory and take home).

Because without the NON THING-TYPE CONTENT, we would be all dressed up with no where to go.

To paraphrase your words:

The value of each is NOT different and there should NOT be a huge set of tools designed to make it easy to reward the makers of physical, i.e., THING-TYPE CONTENT, while the ones designed to make it easier to reward the creators of the other, NON THING-LIKE CONTENT are somehow considered free money.

That is what you have been saying as well, I believe.

coco

No, this is his point. The reason why the movie theatre can charge $5 for a soda that cost a dime, and $6 for the popcorn that cost them a quarter, is because people are visiting the movie theatre and they like visiting it. In other words, selling those goods at a high profit gives them a financial reward for having built the movie theatre.

But in SL, because nobody eats or drinks, you can't sell soda and popcorn. Thus, the movie theatre builders couldn't use that method to get a financial reward.

Argent's claim has always been that dwell is intended to rectify this - to provide the financial reward that would otherwise be gotten by this type of sale.



There is a difference between what you are "entitled" to, and "what you pay for". "What you pay for" is the things that, if taken away, would cause you to stop paying. That's your choice, not LL's.

Original Hypothesis: Dwell/Traffic would reward those people who managed to create compelling (subjective) content for use and enjoyment on the grid.

Observed results: Camping chairs, dance pads, tringo parlors, yard sales, and super hot sexy thong contests, copied endlessly with no creativity - in other words, what the players want and enjoy!

("But but but - these aren't the things we wanted them to want!"

Solution: Remove this open system and watch the Lindens take over. LL will find another way to reward only that content they happen to approve of, without accidentally rewarding Tringo or super hot sexy thong contests.

(Private companys can do that, ya know.)

coco

If "the people" want and enjoy something it's reason enough to get rid of it.

hahahaha

coco

The difference is that I can go to the movies without getting a soda or any popcorn.

Sure, but you can sell tee shirts or objects or any of the 47 other things that people sell. If people are having a good time listening to the DJ or whatever, they'll be more willing to pay a little extra for a whatever, just like at the movies. Dwell gives the provider that bonus whether or not the visitor feels that the provider deserves it, and therein lies the problem. When everyone gets dwell bonuses just for having something interesting enough to bother to show up to (or, more often, being bribed to do so with either money chairs or 'contests'), there's less incentive to really go nuts making the event or whatever awesome.

Edit:


If I could change any one thing about SL for my own utterly selfish purposes, it would be making planning, advertising, supporting, providing a venue for, hosting, attending, competing in, or having anything whatsoever to do with a 'super hot sexy thong contest' punishable by being shot in the street and the offender's surviving family billed for the bullet.

Fine. New hypothesis: People really like these events.

So much so, in fact, that they're willing to pay a piddly amount ($L10) to enter and enjoy these events.

Seriously, is USD $.03 too much to ask for an hour's worth of entertainment?

Expected results: Truly liked clubs will flourish. Competition will force clubs to differentiate and improve their product. Consumers win due tot he increased variety in the world.

What's the problem again?

That, I can go along with. It will be interesting to see if it turns out that way.

coco

haha - well, they're not my thing, either. But I don't have to go to them, and they are things that plenty of my customers enjoy.

I really don't want my customers to go away. I want them to enjoy themselves in SL, in whatever (legal) ways they want to.

coco