Either Philip's account got hacked - or dwell is gone.

Hallelujah. Praise the Lord.

Let me repeat my interest in sponsoring worthy events. Maybe now that it's sink or swim, the entertainment industry will get off its lazy ass and actually ask me for some coin.

Unfortunately I must preface this by saying it is only my opinion and other than a degree in International Business and a couple of Economics classes, I am *not* an expert on this...

But if folks were relying on the traffic bonuses to keep their sims going, then something is seriously wrong. My partner and I run almost an entire sim on our own sales of products that we make. Yes we have store rentals, but that is to give customers variety and a reason to come to our place to shop. We also have apartments and condos as well as a lounge (no, not a club we don't do contests or events) and community gardens.

We run our sim for a few reasons, the main one being that we enjoy it. Remember that concept? Running a store, mall, club, whatever, because it is fun? We have 5 members in our group that own the land collectively and we each receive less than 20L per day in traffic bonuses. If I read correctly, we multiply that by the 5 members and get 100L total paid out per day, which is 75% of what we would get if it were a single person owning the land. (someone correct me if i'm wrong in this?) So say, 130L per day if it was one avatar running the show times 360days (rounded) per year...thats 46800L per year for just under a full sim parcel.

Now...I don't know about you guys, but I make that much in sales in about 2 weeks (give or take, I do have bad days). To me, the traffic incentive is pocket change that negates an upload charge or two. Overall it is not going to make or break me. Even considering that some places (the really big ones) have about 10x the traffic we do, it still doesn't cover the operating costs. Trust me, I know what it takes to run a club

On the flip side, multiply that by how many sims there are on the grid (couldn't begin to venture a guess on taht number without looking it up) and you have a tidy little sum, as Philip has stated. This is money created and thrown into the system, where the money sinks just aren't compensating well enough, as is reflected in the exchange rate.

What this will truly mean is that those residents (raises hand) that offer an entertaining sim and overall SL experience are going to get the traffic and rise to the top of the pop charts, as it were. Live music was only the beginning of the quality offerings that we've seen lately and it will continue to grow along with things like resident-created movies, plays, etc. Of course, there will always be the landowner who thinks that camping chairs and dance pads will pay off in the end. Those folks won't go away, ever.

So take your pick: no more pocket change for the landowners who don't really need it to begin with....or a rising exchange rate. I may be wrong, but most of the people who are complaining about this latest change are the same ones that are complaining about the market stats.

Or maybe i'm wrong and the LindeX will crash and we'll all be "standing in bread lines", looking for Linden handouts, begging with our scripted tip jars and heading over There...(sarcasm)

But then again, its just my opinion

And Enabran... This is the first i've heard this offer. I'd love to discuss that with you, if you'd contact me in world. Or i'll IM you We'll do lunch! Have your people call my people.

Lets stop thinking about content for a moment, and consider social gathering places. Lets take Luskwood as an example. Many people gather socially on the main platform. Yes, I know that Luskwood has many other sources of income than dwell, mainly the sales of in-house designed avatars.

But this is a hypothetical "what if" kind of thing. Imagine of for whatever reason, Luskwood avatar sales drop off suddenly. But despite this, the place remains a popular social venue. Well, with dwell gone, that secondary source of income on which to fall back on is no longer there.

You talk about a L$2 cover charge. Okay, that's not too much. But if one set that on the land, it's highly probable that penny pinchers, and those that just happpen to not have that 2$ would go elsewhere, likely to a Linden-run location, such as Cordova or Gougen, to socialize.

Before you tear this apart, I know it's improbable. I know that people could easily borrow 2$. But it's a hypothetical what-if, and is plausable.

Honestly I think $50 a month is pretty steep unless you're really apt to go on shopping sprees.

But then, I've been here three years and spent very little real money -- though when I do see something I like (clothing, etc) I certainly do spend for it.

I think a lot of people don't understand the value of a place that doesn't have levels/points/goals, though. But I'm coming from mucks and IRC where a hangout place *really is OK*, and being able to create your own stuff is enough.

For people who demand that their computer entertains them, (closer to TV than anything else, I think) rather than becoming part of the process, I can see why SL wouldn't be a value.

You'd think I didn't get dwell payments... I do. I'm going to be losing L$; Luskwood isn't exactly an 'unpopular' area - we're going to be losing those traffic payments. It's actually going to hurt a little.

But I don't really care. I think that SL has to be driven by its own merits instead of loopholes that allow for payouts and cashouts. For all of the people who are kicking and screaming that their do-nothing clubs are going to go under, there will be people ready and willing to develop *REAL* "new and compelling" locations on the grid to take their place.

Who knows. SL may actually become a place that you DO think is worth paying for.

And this is different from RL how? Most clubs/amusement parks/anywhere with new and compelling content in RL charges a cover charge. I'd like to see someone go over to DisneyWorld and say, "Ummmm, listen I came here to be entertained, but I've got a fixed income and can't really afford to spend money here but can you let me in anyway?"

The real problem is that this feature has never been used in SL before, at least not to a big extent. SL is very much transitioning from the world of hippy love to the world that very similarly resembles our own. Now, I don't expect sandboxes will start charging dwell. LL has always provided those free and I expect them to continue to do so. I also expect there to be clubs that will not charge a pass to enter as well, much like your locale bars don't charge you to enter. I do however, expect larger clubs, places with lots of non-casino games, and other places that offer strictly entertainment to begin charging for their time and effort, and it's about time they did.



Both of these will still be around. People once said when you could finally exchange $L for $US, you'd see the death of free content, that no one would ever be able to own land, and that basic accounts wouldn't be able to afford anything. I'm quite happy to say that none of these things happened then, and I doubt they will happen now.

Brilliant, brilliant post. Couldn't have said it better.

Remember, though, that you're refuting the ravings of people who know as much about business as the Trojan army knew about advanced aerodynamic theory. It's a lost cause -- there will be screechings and ramblings for months. But life will continue as normal and hopefully improve significantly as 9% of the currency pool is shaved off while camping chairs no longer blight the grid.

They're pissed because their cheese has been moved, and that's fine. Just enjoy the good news. Congrats on your solid business, btw!

hehe no offence taken, Michi... This is, and becoming even moreso a senstive topic - I should have realized that. My little song was a feeble attempt at interjecting humor, not so much a statement

My own feelings are mixed. Just like the transition off big stipends, or event support, or developer incentives, folks will adjust, but it'll be painful in the short term. There will be unfortunate casualties, just like before.

I'm confident that places that provide the community a unique or compelling experience will survive (because there's a demand for it) - and those that are cookie-cutter will have the deck stacked against them.

On the other hand, much like in real life, incentives can help those new to the landscape get established. This may create an environment that is extremely difficult to break into unless one has a fresh new idea. Then again, that may not be a bad thing

If money were the only possible way to contribute to sl, then you'd have a point. I stated nothing beyond resentment, but you seem to like reading more than what was stated. Also, you can't really say it shouldn't be a problem paying monthly fees because its just a /little/ extra cash. Where does one draw the line?
Ever consider that some people may have enough trouble squeezing in enough cash to afford broadband to begin with? Something for nothing certainly isn't profitable for LL, but they might as well start manditory monthly charges, hm? Its the massive amount of 'basic cheap leeches' that keep alot of people in business on sl. They don't have alot of money, and yes, most of what they have is from ll, but the sheer quantity of basic members is probably a large chunk of income for stores and the like.

It is entirley possible to manage a basic account system that doesn't kill sl's economy. I think the current choice is absoltey the wrong way to remedy the problem tho. I completley understand your reasoning, because hell, I've managed to accumulate over 10k linden from hell knows where with little more than just paying the $10 upfront. I don't sell stuff, nor do I camp for money either, so I'm scared to think of how much a 24/7 multi-alt chaircamper can reap.

Basic accounts are needed, and incentives for keeping sl interesting are needed imo. However, the payout for these incentives must be recoverable. You demanding everyone pay in is just the type of resentment I was talking about.

Editedit. Perhaps they need to rethink their private sim scheme? Perhaps LL should handle sims that intend to be profitable, and sims that intend to be recreational in different ways? If the economy really worked, then LL should be making enough to atleast warrant a little leeway in regard to recreational/no-profit sims?
Seems like an alternative to the sim owner needing a working business before even thinking about about making a 'public space' area or the like... I guess waiting it out and seeing if LL can manage to actually make a little extra money, and thus could be open to such an option with their financial leeway, might work.. but who knows. They might keel over and die too. ;p

So, this means all those tiny "Group Dividend" payments will go away? Doesn't matter much to me any more, but I know several Players for whom that and their stipend is just about their only source of Lindens.

The argument "You pay how much for Broadband per month, but you can't afford another $10 USD per month for Lindens?" assumes that the cost of your broadband conection is discretionary - merely an entertainment expense. That the only reason you have a fancy computer and a fast net connection is to play games on it. Maybe that is true for a lot of people here. But not for all of us. My broadband connection exists because I telecommute full time, and also use it to run several RL businesses from my home. It's my 'office rent', in RL, and not at all a 'discretionary payment'. I pay for broadband, or I don't have a job. But I don't have to pay to play here. That I can also use my fast net connection and my marginally-adequate-for-SL computer to play in SL is a bonus.

I am helping to build several new sims right now. I have several friends who are bulding new sims. None of them are counting on dwell or DI to make ends meet. They are residential sims, or mixed residential and commercial properties. They are designed to pay off the sim in one to two years, assuming a certain percentage of land can be leased out, and that other properties bring in so much per month in rent (mall space, apartments, etc.), or generate income in other ways. With a good business plan, it can certainly be done. And you know what? They can still be beautiful places, well worth visiting.

I do think that the days of a full sim that is nothing but a beautiful garden are going the way of the Dodo bird. At least, where such sims are the only types that a given individual owns. Certainly there can still be large events. But they will need to have an admissions price. Certainly there can be large areas dedicated to 'play', but they have to be offset by income generating properties elsewhere, that cover the 'fun' area's expenses.

No RL land owner would tie up all their properties in privately owned public parks and playgrounds. They need a mix of commercial properties that generate income. If they do well with most of their properties, they can give back to the community by offering some of their land for free public use. But it gets paid for by their other holdings.

I am starting to earn a decent income in SL, working my tail off as a Builder and texture artist. I took the time to learn skills that are valued here, and I'm getting paid well to use them. I don't need to spend RL money buying Lindens. I don't need to pay for a Premium account, either. Not when I can lease land in private sims for less per month than Premium membership and land tier would cost me.

I am a 'basic member'. Maybe LL doesn't get direct cash from me, but I pay plenty into the SL Economy. I pay for mall space in 5 sims. I lease land in a private sim. I make lots of purchases form other merchants in SL. I work, I pay rent, I buy and sell merchandise. Basic members can be contributing members of the economy. The money I earn in SL feeds back to the owners of many other sims and malls and SL Merchants.

Last I checked, the program wasn't called "Real Life", it was called "Second Life." If I wanted an exact simulation of real life, I'd *GASP!* GO OUTSIDE!

There was a post somewhere back towards the first of this thread that talked about corporate sponsorship. Maybe it's time some of SL's wealthy czars decided to open venture capital firms...

Dunno the details, but I would be surprised if a resident or two didn't turn this into a business opportunity.

Travis, heh. I think SL is badly in need of fresh new ideas. There have been many nights where I just want to go 'out' in to SL, but ... everything's the same. There are few options that aren't "SEXY AVVIE CONTEST" or "DANCE AND GET $2 AN HOUR" ...

Since the Elbow Room closed down -- (and I do check the Shelter, Travis) - it's tough to just go find a place to hang out with people. I mean, the WA used to be that. but now it certainly isn't.

But look at bars in RL that have 'regulars'. You go to your place, a friendly place to be that doesnt neccessarily have to be 'compelling and new'. That may even be enough for this model. I know that some of the few friendly places I've gone to semi regularly in the past, I'd have NO PROBLEM paying a cover charge to support and be part of that kind of environment.

On a night looking for something to do, the prospect of going out and making L$100 at boring, trite, no-personality places is quite outshined by the possibility of spending L$100 and finding some real engagement and places that survive on their merit not on how much they dole out.

Its not necessarily about the "wealthy czars", but rather about those that see opportunity in finally having quality pay off. And as for the business opportunity...it's been happening for some time, but now is our chance to shine There are many sims that have been built or are *being* built as we type, that are purely for the entertainment, beauty, historical value, fun, interest, hobby, etc. Watch for them now.

Can do! It definitely sounds like you and your group have your stuff together and that's always the sort of folks I like to work with.

With more detail, for those who are interested:

On a weekly basis, I'm able to furnish copies of my ass-kicking, HUD-driven product ($899 value) as prizes for events and contests. Additionally, I'm able to furnish a prize budget of a few thousand L$ for contests of exceptional quality. In exchange I ask for display of some signage during the event, a shout-out or two from the host, that kind of thing.

Of course weekly sponsorships are limited and only quality event hosts need apply. Don't be shy, people. Make me an offer! I've been willing to work on these terms for almost a year and only Margaret Mfume has ever taken me up on the offer, for her Katrina Benefit efforts. You line up me and four other people like me willing to trade some exposure for L$2k a week and that's L$10k of totally free money that brings the community closer together as residents learn about new businesses and products. L$10k fills a lot of Tringo Pots, Money Balls, Donkey Scrotums and whatever else it is you crazy cats use in your clubs. What're you waiting for?

This argument -again-. I don't know how many times I've heard it.

That's great, Vector. but you can't "virtualize" the fact that SL costs RL money to run and maintain, and RL money for residents to develop.

I'd like to see Philip explain to the power company that the 80kwh/mo that it takes to run the grid shouldn't be charged for because it's "virtual" and "not real life".

You're thinking half a step in, and ignoring the realities that SL does indeed exist in RL. Linden Lab is not a fantasyland, and the whole enterprise - from lindens to residents - takes real tangible cash to keep going.

I just don't know what you expect people do to. Provide a "second life" with no strings attached, I suppose. Again I ask, who do you want to take the hit? Who do you want to be making the payments? Because SOMEONE has to. Someone has to make REAL LIFE payments for SECOND LIFE to exist.

Why is this so hard to understand? Who do you want to subsidize this thing?

And it's not an exact simulation of RL. I don't see as many furries, vampires, robots, escorts, creatures of all kinds wandering around playing bingo/shooting each other/changing hair styles AT a club/changing clothes in a club/swearing and blowing up bombs in RL as I do in SL.

Expecting SL to be completely removed from the principles that govern RL is a bit rediculous, IMO. The point is, if you want to be entertained, you should expect to pay for it, in whatever currency is accepted by that organization. No different from paying for any MMO you play, paying for any movie you rent or go see, paying for any CD you want.

If the content's not worth it, then don't give them your money, but it's time for people to stop expecting that SL is there to entertain them. SL is here for you to live another life. What that entails is up to you, and if you want to be entertained here from now on, more than likely, you're gonna have to pay.

This argument -again-. I don't know how many times I've heard it.

That's great, Vector. but you can't "virtualize" the fact that SL costs RL money to run and maintain, and RL money for residents to develop.

I'd like to see Philip explain to the power company that the 80kwh/mo that it takes to run the grid shouldn't be charged for because it's "virtual" and "not real life".

You're thinking half a step in, and ignoring the realities that SL does indeed exist in RL. Linden Lab is not a fantasyland, and the whole enterprise - from lindens to residents - takes real tangible cash to keep going.

I just don't know what you expect people do to. Provide a "second life" with no strings attached, I suppose. Again I ask, who do you want to take the hit? Who do you want to be making the payments? Because SOMEONE has to. Someone has to make REAL LIFE payments for SECOND LIFE to exist.

Why is this so hard to understand? Who do you want to subsidize this thing?

Ding, Dong, the Dwell is dead !

The Elbow Room shut down?!?

Well this ain't your average MMORPG.

Marlin Engineering is already doing this (although at a smaller scale) for one weekly event, and I'm open to sponsoring another as well.

- Jon

I believe they already have, with the Foundation for Rich Content, which provides funds to all kinds of events.

coco

See, you make this assumption that we're doing it for bottom line. If LCC avs dropped off, the chance of us charging a cover charge is pretty damn slim. We started Luskwood before we had avatars, before there were dwell payments, and before you could cash out L$.

I don't see why this would change if we stopped having an income. You talk about land owners squeezing every bit of profitability out of every square meter of land. We could have done that a LONG time ago if that was our priority. It isn't.

We're trying to provide a place for people to hang out, and be, because we want that. People are not paid to hang out on the Luskwood platform. They don't do it for incentive. And we dont do anything to try to get them there. We've never had an incentive besides being a friendly place where people simply want to be.

We didn't start the avatar business as a money maker. Ask around -- Arito bet us L$1000 that if we "sold over 100" he would "eat a plywood prim in RL". That's no myth. People wanted our custom avatars, and we made the vended avatars in order to handle the load -- so we could give people what they wanted without us being slammed by the demand. There weren't any dollar signs in our eyes. When we started there were maybe twenty furries, 30 at a stretch, on the entire grid. We didn't think it'd be any sort of lucrative business.

Someday maybe we'll have to pay a lot to LL to keep Luskwood going. But some things are more important than taking home a profit, and as silly as you may think it is we're doing something we believe in, and enjoy -- even if it is tough as nails sometimes to keep running.

I don't think anyone realizes that. We ran Luskwood LONG before there was any money to be made in SL. The only way we'd pack it up and go home is if we absolutely could not afford it anymore. There are a few rare and unlikely scenarios in which that could happen, but dwell payouts going away is not one of them.

If this lack of 'incentive' breeds more people who create areas because they're passionate about them --- and yes that CAN include making a profit --- (the two are not mutually exclusive; if you've heard "do what you love and the money will follow"...) then the grid will benefit all around for it.

We don't need loopholes. There are plenty of good and creative people to go around who CAN AND WILL STEP UP TO PROVIDE WHAT PEOPLE WANT. And they will be compensated for their efforts in kind by those who want and respect what they produce.

If the folks who can't figure that out and are running scared because areas are going to have to exist on pure naked merit, decide to take their $0 and go elsewhere with it, then I say bring on the replacements who give a damn.

Our give a damn is not directly proportional to our bottom line. But because we give a damn, our bottom line aint that bad. Imagine that equation. It may work for you, too.

That's what I hear... I don't -believe- that I heard it on April 1, either. :\