Why the "camping"?

ALSO (last post for awhile I swear )
There is the fact that SL is far more advanced in economics than any other online "game". That I know of anyway.
GuildWars for example is demanding that people selling items on Ebay for cash are to be removed from the listing.
A number of "not with it" games are out there still.
That, I hope, will be changing.

With SL? We have it all integrated right into the world. SLexchange for example.
And we can Ebay all we want too.

So the Sims online I would class as in the "not with it" group for sure.

There is much TSO stuff on Ebay, but EA regard basically turn a blind eye to it and don't enforce their own rules regarding the subject - which makes the whole ToS a complete mockery, after all why have rules if you don't enforce it.

TSO is not necessarily 'not with it' - it has suffered a lot from underdevelopment and lack of support from EA, sure.... but it certainly has, I would guess, an *active* player base on a par with SL.

The lack of 'real world integration' from TSO is, I believe a positive side - after all, many of us play games (which SL is) to escape the trappings of reality, yet are affected by it in game whether we want to or not. Such as Lindex... if I want to buy L$, depending on what 'exchange rate' there is at the moment will depend how much it costs me - and that makes life more complicated, and certainly does not enhance gameplay for me in the slightest.

Sure, some people make money - and in fact a living - from SL, but that's not the game I want to play.



What is there in SL - apart from camping chairs - that needs unattended macroing? I'm not aware of *anything* that could be constituted as 'grinding' in the form of levelling up in SL. Banning something entirely unnecessary in the first place shouldn't actually cause any issue.

Lewis

LOL Fair enough.

Actually I agree with you. But as far as I know LL is well aware of what people are doing with circumventing the time out. Lord knows enough people have described exactly how to do it and admitted they are doing it here in the forums. I have yet to see a definitive statement to this particular phenomenon from LL.

In the end this is not TSO. LL sets the rules and policies. Until such a time as LL starts acting against people that use these auto mouse click/mover programs there really is no crime being committed. You may not like it. I may not like it. Thats how it is.

Well I know of only one. It's a project someone I know is working on. And it is certainly not a common placed thing yet.
It is also part of "camping" but it makes it entirly different than what most are seeing campers as.

All it does is put people into part of the enviorment.
Such as background. One example I was shown is a bartender that a "camper" becomes while they are away.
I mean, the person is away from their computer, but the avi wears an item that makes it react certain animations and say things depending on what you do or ask the player. (really its the invisible box the avi is wearing)
But using someone's already made avi makes it look better.
It's an advanced alternative to the "paper cutouts" some have in their bars,clubs,stores, etc.

One new option I was just told about was the "manequin" camper.
I think this is awsome.
It is basically a display for store owners.
The "camper" gets a free pair of clothing to wear and stands on a pad that poses them in various ways over time.
Effectivly displaying the clothing. And getting payed for it.
And not for traffic.
It's for a more practical purpose. It's an actual employee.

That can be done by anyone with a camping script.

But the NPC option that is in the works is totally different. That will allow interaction with an AI program that exists outside of SL.
Basically the automated keys are needed to input the commands to the object the "camper" wears. And that animates the avi to react however it needs to.

Apparently LSL is not strong enough to make a good AI program I guess.
So it would be needed for such things if that ever takes off.

I hope camping becomes more practical thou.
I think it will.

You can dress my avi up in a tutu if you want to. To display it for sale.
So long as there is still the payment for the job.

I just like the idea of having avi's working while your away. I think it will make a good improvment on the world if people would just use it that way.

So destroying the camping abilitiy can destroy an entirly new aspect of SL that may or may not take off anyway.
I can't see how it wouldn't merge that way thou.
It's just the next step in using what is out there.

So far those NPC's interact just as well as other games with built in NPC's
Havok 2 might help with that thou so no outside program is needed. heh
Oh well

Also having the AI brains outside of SL cuts back on lag.
It would take a lot of scripts in that object to compare I would think.
Just for memory reasons if nothing else.

Might a simple TOS addition to combat the problem of camping chairs been a lot less complicated - and upsetting to a large portion of the community - than getting rid of DI?

Lewis

You can quite easily have an av pose on command using LSL, if they give permissions, so it would be useful for selling animations or posing in a specific outfit - actually a valuable service, particularly for animation sellers, where previews are tricky - but AFAIK there is no way for an object to change someone's outfit. They'd have to do that manually. You know, actually having to be there and drag a folder, scary.

I don't know, it's all very well sitting around and thinking of ways to make camping chairs a bit more entertaining for the rest of the world, but that implies that there's a use for them. I still don't like the idea of them at all.

I'm all for newbies without much money being able to do stuff to get them some. I think free account holders are hugely underrated, in that simply by being there, talking and doing stuff they add value and content to SL, even if they never build a single plywood cube and just wear freebies. They add social content and diversity. Well, some of them do. I can't stand all the halfwitted student capitalist shite that appears on the forums about how they shouldn't get stipends because they're not out there SELLING THINGS.

Honestly, though, the day when I give somebody money proportional to the length of time they sit there using up server resources and adding bog all is the day when I paint my bottom blue. I'd rather just give them the money straight out, frankly. (NB this is not an invitation for any newbies reading this, I don't have any money anyway.)

I like money trees incidentally, I think they're cute.

Feel free to campaign for such a change to the TOS. DI is doomed nothing we can say or do now is going to revive it. But if the concept of AFK campers (for whatever reason) is what is driving people nuts then by all means work on changing the TOS.

I for one have a hard time wrapping my brain around the concept of cheating in a world with no predefined goals and hence no "winner".

Were the people that made 3rd party objects and skins for offline Sims cheating since they used a program that did hack into the original Game? (Note I am not Talking about TSO but instead The Sims). Those same downloads kept that game popular for an obscene amount of time. In fact Maxis would list 3rd party content sites on their official Sims website and went so far as to build content creation into both Sims 2 and to a lesser extent TSO. Nonetheless, that whole phenomenon began with a hack/cheat.

Yeah the posing one anyone can do with a script.
But the AI program I'd like to see. Best I've seen is a pig.
AI is all about databasing.
LSL is certainly not made for that thou.
Yet. lol

Oh, sure, that's true - but, I'm speaking of people who are new and looking in from the outside. There are a number of folks I've spoken to who, if they see "no unattended macroing" in the TOS, will immediately assume that a game is a grinder without trying it.

Also, banning idling wouldn't solve the problem. Once a camper has been at a location for 5 minutes, the only reason to keep them there is to stop them going other places. It'd be possible to make a chair that let them sit for 5 minutes then told them to log off SL with the note that they'd only be paid if they remained offline for 24 hours. Same dwell, and same traffic assuming that it's computed the same way.

Indeed! good point there. Heh

Depends how I you want your AI to be. You can do very restricted tasks with some success.

I can imagine, for instance, an attachment which turns somebody into a shop zombie. They attach it and it uses a sensor to look for customers, moves the av around, plays different animations, asks questions and listens for simple answers.

e.g. Belinda Newbie puts on the zombie attachment. It changes its name to "Zombie Belinda Newbie" and starts a scan for customers. When it finds a new person, it starts a Zombie Walk animation and moves towards them. When it's near enough it starts talking...

And so on.

Thing is, there's nothing apart from looking better and using animations that a scripted av like that can do that an object can't.

Which is my point. It's just for looks in that case and adding to the enviorment.
Since some are yelling that campers are ugly.

The other options I've seen with it are backgrounds for a sim. Avi/cars that drive around a city. Business people walking to and from this or that place. Thats basic stuff LSL can handle.

Databased AI's would just give a lot more options and interactons.
It doesn't even have to be an avi really I wouldn't think. Just a computer could use a database that exists outside of LSL
Just for memory and lag reasons.

Thats the only other reason I can see keeping the automated key inputs (other than camping)
If they got rid of that ability in some way. Such as auto loging you if you don't reply to this or that. Then there goes the option of an external database too.

AI's for avi's is just one option.
Those computers in SL that use the LSL pretty well. Those are great.
But it can be better with a little outside help.

And ive been so naughty and put a money tree/ raffle ball and money ball in my gardens to attract traffic must look for some of these dam chairs b4 the price goes up to buy them as they are such a hot topic yet again

Not entirely, at least as far as I understand it.

In offline Sims 1 and Sims 2, custom content is a huge part of the game. You can download stuff, make your own themed stuff, and whatever you like. If you want to make something that you click on it and it gives you a million simoleans, it doesn't matter because it's just your game that you're affecting.

In Sims Online, because you are playing with and against other players, the whole matter of cheating is a big issue. There is no custom content ability built into TSO - although there are a few third party clothing patches and suchlike (despite them being specifically against in the ToS).

The simple difference is when it's just you playing, it doesn't matter what you do (any more than any other cheat in any other offline game) - but when you are playing against other players, then you are affecting other people with your actions.

On an unrelated note, if an online version of Sims 2 came out.... I think SL's days would be numbered.

Lewis

Do you mean by people you? just wondering as you seem to have such a bee in your bonnet about the chairs. Looking at ur recent posts, why such the downer on here? if you dont like it Change it but dont moan about it

Ive got a raffle ball, a money tree and a money ball in my gardens because they attract traffic and get me up the ratings and yes im going introduce camping chairs, but im gonna hide them away from the main garden.

The reason i use these methods is that i cant spend 000's a week on classified advertising for something that im doing for fun. Also these things came in handy for me in my early days to get much needed Linden and help and if as i do when i go camping you talk to people then it can be fun.

If a camper comes to my gadens and picks the tree or wins something in the ball then ive paid that person for their services as they have visited the garden and ive paid them for something i wanted them to do. I see it as a fair exchange for their time and also as the ratings go up the list so does the real visitors that come and spend so i think they are GREAT VALUE for money and long may the great camping god at LL keep them

So is a classified advert cheating because they have paid for the advert to raise their profile? just as i pay people from my tree or other delights?

Lighten up its a fun place and camping can be fun

But unless people speak out against things they don't like, there will never be change or improvement - and I feel that the removal of camping chairs would be an improvement.



But don't you see the problem here? It's a never ending downward sprial. It's not far off the point where to even be considered successful as far as the ratings goes you have to give out free money in some form or another. That makes it very hard for creative players like me to compete to get traffic. If you have a fantastic build that doesn't pay out, or a piece of flat land with camping chairs that pay you for sitting there zombie-like, which one attracts more traffic and looks more popular? The money.



But you will be spending that same amount of L$ in camping chairs and raffle balls? That makes no sense.



Not in the same way, no. Perhaps the only solution is to entirely do away with the traffic rating altogether, then there won't be anything to compete against, or cheat for, and you'll simply have to search for places through their name and description.



Sixteen years in the Scouts tells me that camping is fun - but sitting zombie-like on a chair for hours on end in a computer game is not camping

Lewis

There seem to be two issues here:

1 - People spending time in camping chairs, drawn by the attraction of free L$, which they would otherwise spend exploring other areas, thus biasing popularity.
2 - People spending time in camping chairs when they would otherwise not be logged into SL at all, thus creating "fake" dwell and popularity. If camping chairs were banned, this dwell/popularity potential would be lost entirely, but because it is focused on certain areas this might result in a re-ordering of the popularity charts.

I can see the complaint about (2) but not (1).

Actually as I understand it these days it is possible for people with the right skills and in the right houses to make special items. That was not always true.

Where we differ in opinion is I don't see it as playing AGAINST anyone (except perhaps myself). Didn't in TSO, don't now. I spend time in game to enjoy myself and be with family. If I make something someone wants along the way great, if not also great.

Its all in the perceptions of the individual of what SL is for and about.

I agree with you its great that we have the forums to vocalise in





Of course but that is what drives the game and people, but i see the campers as doing me a service as a business or whatever i pay them to come stay on my land to help raise my profile in the listings so i see them as my sales staff making sure i get higher in the list then hopefully people will see the listing and visit

If and when it changes then so shall i and everyone involved with me



Raffle Ball is purely prizes i am given to go in it. The camping chairs i can set limits etc as does the money ball and stay within a budget for the week. the money tree i am happy to put back what i was happy to use when i started and friends etc. donate to it to further help some noobs



I dont see anyone as cheating at getting traffic as thats the nature of the beast at present but if you have somewhere cool for people to visit and want to attract a few more people to it, then put in a money tree and help the noobs, get some traffic go up the list and the other visitors will come to see what you have but alas not over night. I vist and even camp overnight at places using a clicker & i dont get paid i find places i like then help them out maybe more campers should try that one night



I agree after many happy years as a lad in the scouts and living near Brownsea Island camping shud be fun and as any that have camped with me will attest we are not zombies, well, not much neway

Do a search for The Tree of Life in the FIND section and go visit there its an 8000 prim tree and needs everyones support go visit please.

I hadn't thought about 'crafting' in that way..... sure you can make certain items if you have gained certain skill combinations, and they are stamped with your name as the person who crafted it - but the item is the same regardless of who makes it - there's nothing 'custom' in any other way about it.



True.... and that's mostly where I am - I make it, it looks good, that's fine... if others enjoy it then that's a bonus; I know I am never going to be able to compete with the 'big players' (as long as I refuse to hand out free money and don't have any sex balls in my club) but it just grates me that people don't get to see my creations simply because they don't show up in any form of popularity - because they're all sitting in camping chairs and off doing something more interesting in real life.

Lewis

One thing I learned in my time in game. You build what you want because YOU enjoy it. Popularity can't be a part of it or it simply will not last. There will always be those that would rather spend their off time making easy money rather than being offline. There will also be those that enjoy exploring and finding cool new things to see and do.

Getting all ticked off because you choose not to play the rat race game and your build as a result isn't as popular as you wish is a waste of time. Better to enjoy what you have created and make your own audience.

I just find this interesting.
If camping is 'banned", either by crippling anti-loging or simply throwing people out of the game for doing it, then that bans the ability for people to give money for any reason.

Must it be "ok" with everyone before one person gives money to another?
If someone wants to give their money way. That is their choice. Not anyone elses.

IT IS a transaction. Camping makes money go from one account to another. Period.
And both people get what they want.

I see all this upset is about WHAT they are trading.

"Traffic" can take several forms. In SL there is a score for Traffic.
There is also the "mainstream traffic" that you can not destory without turning SL into crap.

It is the same "traffic" a company graphs out in real life. It WILL exist as long as we have the ability to BE anywhere.

And without that ability, there is no SL as it is now.
We could all stand still and not be able to go anywhere if thats what you want. That is the only way to destroy REAL traffic. WEEE fun!

So no matter if the damn traffic score goes down or not. There is still the fact that one person will want another person to see see something they made.
Pulling the market will always be a desire for people who sell anything. Or simply want to be seen.

Whether a score exists about it or not, Mainstream traffic, will always be in a setting where people SHOW anything.
And our right to pay anyone will always go hand in hand in that setting.
That is simply why advertisment exists.
People pay to put something in your face. HOW it gets in your face does not matter.
The most effective way will always be top choice.

I could care less if camping was destroyed but until then I'll go with what works. Plain and simple.

What I DO get irritated about is the concepts behind it being attacked.
If camping was destroyed then that is taking away at least two things that we have a right to do.
1: The ability to be at someones place for as long as we want to be. (as long as those two agree on it)
2: And the right to be payed for that reason, or payed for no reason to that matter.

To ban that is just like saying you can't be payed for a job.
What you have and how you deliver it is nobody elses business.
So long as those two people conducting that transaction know what it's about.
And they do. (Unlike a transaction between most freebie sellers and a newbie.)

Now I agree that there is a need for better circulation of funds in SL. Other than the "buy lindens with real cash" crap that some think is plain and simple.
Again, personally, I'd rather feed my cat than buy a stinking virtual item out of my own wallet. Not until we get some kind of personal backup option to save them to our own comptuer.
These items could be destroyed at any minute cause the power goes out at LL.
I don't buy a legal MP3 and have it stored on the SELLERS server do I? Do you? I don't, I download it after payment.
So why should I see it any different with virtual items?
Paying for a service to hold land is a different story because it is used for others to interact with. It is not entirly a personal item.
Same difference is between a webpage and an mp3 I listen to on my own computer.

Anyway,
since people got sticks up their butts about the "sitting on our ass" and "cheating for traffic" then maybe they should also be trying to make a system that works. And not try to destroy the setup that allows us to find better ways.

Putting some stupid ban on camping is also crippling your own ability to do what you want with your land.
Why is it so hard for people to see that?

Make an alternative that is more attractive than camping. Lots of people yelling about it but only a few seem to even be trying.

Also I would like someone to explain how camping is any different than putting an advertisment up. Something different than this:
Both camping and advertisments draw people to something.
Both need payments.
Difference: Money goes to the general public instead of some middle man or third party for advertisment fees.

The problem is not so much that camping is a popular activity. Well, ok, that is a problem in a sense, but it's something that needs to be solved by looking at the SL society and working out why that kind of thing is popular rather than simply banning it. Banning it will just mean that the #2 thing becomes the new most popular thing.

The big problem though, is "dead traffic". Dead traffic is the traffic/dwell created by players who are not active at their PCs. Although the nature of the dwell system tends to minimise dead traffic, there is still a fair amount out there - staying longer in a camping spot increases the percentage of the session you've been there, and if someone camps for an entire day that's an entire point of dead traffic.

The difficulty is that potential dead traffic always exceeds potential live traffic - because most people don't spend the majority of their RL time active in SL. Thus persuading them to spend that idle time connected to SL in a particular place, is actually more valuable than persuading them to spend their active SL time in a particular place. And yet focusing builds around dead traffic produces.. well, the ugly messes that have chairs, as you've described.

So here's an proposal. Instead of banning camping chairs, put an "assign dead traffic" button on the user interface. When you're on a parcel you really like, you can pull up your menu, hit "assign dead traffic", and then all the time when you're not logged in, all the traffic you would be otherwise generating goes onto the parcel you assigned it to. The assignment only lasts for 1 week, so you can't just leave it like this forever at no hassle. The landowner can see who's assigned dead traffic to their parcel and when they first did it, and so can scripts owned by the landowner and running on the parcel.

The argument here is that people are going to find some way to "camp" no matter what SL does, so by doing this we enable everyone to get a piece of the camping pie. You can build your theme build and then ask everyone who likes it to "assign dead traffic" onto it. Or because of the script visibility, you could code all your vendors to give a 5% discount to everyone who assigns dead traffic to your store for a couple of days. At least that means that the active people who are finding things they like will not be outvoted by the campers everytime because the campers spend more time. Likewise, this will enable people who do want to camp, to do so without taking up server resources or AV slots on sims.