Why the "camping"?

When camping chairs go away will the max number of people in SL at any given time drop off? I vote yes. We didn't start seeing these high numbers of concurrent users until camping chairs. When they are gone, well, we will just have to wait and see.

Sounds reasonable. As you say, though, we shall see.

This mornings update..... the same zombie I mentioned yesterday is still on the dance pad, current total 4088 minutes (just over 68 hours), and has collected the princely sum of collected L$1224 ($15).

I spoke withone of the owners of the club just over in the adjacent sim whose land borders mine (there were some lost objects on the land I alerted her to). She said it was very annoying after all the work they'd put in to reduce lag in the club, this place starts up down the road, fills it with camping chairs, and lags the whole sim into the ground.

I really can't honestly see how this is 'playing the game' in any form. Why did I bother spending all weekend installing a water feature in my property, shopping for plants and trying to make it look pretty, if all I really needed to do was buy some L$ and install some camping chairs?

Lewis

This forum post again? Oy
Let it die please

As long as there is some reason to bring people to any location. Camping will always be an option. It works.

The subject will die when camping chairs die.

Then it'll be replaced with people complaining about whatever replaces them that people use to cheat their way to artificially boosted popularity.

Lewis

Yeah. That will be when SL dies probably.
In any case. Camping is no different than a trade or purchase.
I'm giving them something they want. And I get something I want.
That is all it is.
People are all fussed over the way people do a trade. hmm Isn't that their own business?
If lag is seriously a problem then leaving might help.
There are plenty of others wanting to take your spot.
Lag is a problem everywhere really. I personally wouldn't put a vendor out where campers are sitting unless it was a simplified version with no scripts.

But I could also put a tp location there so when they get off their butts they have a place to go.
Or if its an alt account camping. They at least get a peak at the advertisment.

It does more that some might think. It's why we have billboards along the highways in real life. Etc

Before there were camping chairs, I remember the seductive draw of some money balls, like fireflies to lamps I saw them. Many quiet people around... but always a joy to start a conversation with anyone who'd speak up.

It won't be long until there's something new and remarks from new Resis are made in the SL Forums, and that's when someone hearty oldtimers (who are now in their first days of their Second Lives!) will chuckle and go, "Ahhh... but you weren't here for the camping chairs."

It's not that simple, and it's nothing like that whatsoever.

Whilst you might be 'providing a service' by sitting like a zombie for hours on end, it doesn't benefit the game overall.

I go to a store, buy something that I like, my friends drop by and ask me where I got it, I tell them, and the store gets more visitors - and custom - by providing a quality product. There is an encouragement to develop better products, and a good all round shopping experience is a reason I will return to somewhere.

What effort does it take to make a place popular by camping chairs? Absolutely nothing. I could spend $100 on Lindex, buy a handful of camping chairs, set them to pay at above the average rate, and I rocket up the popularity list. All I need to do is offer a plot of land, no walls, no decorating, no landscaping, nothing.... and that appears popular.

I have spent a LOT of time making my place look attractive to visitors... yet it's not considered 'any good' because of the low traffic. I do not and will not pay people to sit on my land like zombies just to look 'popular'.

The TSO equivalent - payouts - has basically ruined it for anyone who tries to succeed without buying visitors; and SL is already heading that same way.

I've not seen anyone, ever, justify camping chairs except "that they aren't against the rules, so tough". That is not justification; now I know nobody has to explain their gameplay style to me, however it would be interesting to hear why people insist on using them.

Lewis

I can give several reasons why they are used.
1.When I had them (I no longer do because of gaming of it and lag) it was in our games area at a low rate and as a ty to our players. A nice side benfit we found was our hosts did not have to beg for pot donations. People were more willing to give since we were also giving.
2. FOr the camping cjair/slot machine combo. THose casinos make big bucks off them. TO get any kind of a decent rate people put one heck of alot of money into a slot. Most do not sit in the chair long enough to recoup their expenditures. In this case its business. I also think this use will NOT go away when DI does.

In the long run its their Second lives. Not my business what they do with them unless they choose to do it on my land. I may not like camping and camping chairs, but I am not so egotistical as to think I have any right whatsoever to judge those that use them. Some people just like doing it.

So your just unhappy about the product they produce. Thats fine.
It's not all about traffic though. That is just one benifit.
The fact of puting an advertisment near a lot of people gains a better chance that, just maybe, someone might be interested in what they see.
Then of course there is the traffic. yes.
Casino games are the same. Just maybe, someone might play because its right in front of them.
And it just so happens they do play. Or click the ad. Etc

Telehubs used to be a popular place for it. Advertisments that is.

Sure we could pay to have it listed on some billboard. But then you got people complaining about those being an eyesore also.

At least the camping spreads the money around a bit. Instead of paying money for posting on a billboard and having just one tycoon hog the L$.

However, if the game is meant to time-out after 30 minutes of inactivity, and that is - by whatever means - being overridden, is that not a violation of the game rules, and cheating?

When it becomes cheating - as it so obviously is, such as my example above who has been idle for 3 days without a break - then what can we do about it? Because cheating is a problem, and there is no excuse. Burying your head in the sand and saying "its their choice" is not a solution.

Lewis

I've always seen it as a grey area.
Sure they can kick us out of the game for being on too long.
But watch how popular SL is after that.

And then there is the fact that telling us we can't have a "certain program", which is perfectly legal to have, on our computer is edging close to violeting our rights and freedom in real life.

LL may own this game, and they can set any rules they want so we get banned, but seeing that SL is a source of income for some people then that can get tricky.
A person may see a reason to fight legally to defend their income.

Such as, for one thing, it is our right to have any other program going on our comptuer. It's just a side effect that SL doesn't log off.
What if there was a real reason to have the mouse move around the computer that just happened to have SL on it also. That may be stupid I know. I can't think of any good reason. But that still makes the point. (except an automated NPC project someone I know is doing)

Fact is nobody else can tell us what to do with our own computer. As long as it is legal in real life for some reason or another.

There is also photoshop. That is an "outside program" used for SL.
And Poser, etc.
Should those be a violation also? Is that a typical thing people like?
Or is that "cheating" cause some of use know how to use it.
They allow us to upload images just like we are allowed to input key commands and use the mouse.
HOW or WHY we use the mouse, or photoshop, is up to us.

When I first joined SL, I didn't know anyone and had no idea of what all there was to do let alone how to do anything, so I did a lot of camping. But thru camping I made some friends and eventually ventured out more to where, now, I am always finding new things to do and learn and don't camp at all anymore. I think camping is a good stepping stone into SL if you are unsure of what all there is to do. This is my first venture into a virtual world, thus, I was pretty clueless when I joined. A noob of newbs you might say. With that said, I don't think camping does any harm to anyone, in fact, it even helped me a little. So, basically, if you don't like camping, don't do it. Simple enough.

If all a player does is log in on a free account, sit in a camping chair for days on end, then cash out the money through Lindex, I don't see their loss as being a problem, to be quite honest with you.



Their game, their rules. Don't like it, don't play. Quite simple. No real-world rights exist in any form online unless the game owners choose to allow us them.



If the rules are against them, then I don't see anyone has any rights to argue the point. I'm not sure whether that kind of action is laughable or pathetic.



I don't see it as that. In TSO, things labelled as an "unfair advantage" - such as automation programs - are prohibited. Having - or lacking - Photoshop skills is not an unfair advantage. It also doesn't affect the way that the game is run, or enhance/prevent certain built in functions.



Completely - as long as the rules allow us.

It would be interesting to hear an official word on whether circumventing the timeout is considered a violation or not - and if it is, perhaps some of us should go round AR'ing some of these obvious 'long term' campers. I have no qualms whatsoever about doing that if it's not a complete waste of my time, and something will happen to them if they are considered to be cheating.

Lewis

Yeah someone new just asked me today where to get money at. He wants to buy the USS Rubicon. It's a high prim avi based ship. It's pretty cool. For $899
Something he can't see getting in a long time.
Unless he camped while he was at work or sleeping for a few days with a single account.
I gave him a few of my ships to hold him until then.
A few may not be as good in the extrea feature department with scripting, but they at least have their own look that sells so far.

Most of the freebies he noticed were pretty much boring to him. When I first came into SL it was the same for me Free = boring. The Fun value of things goes out the door when something becomes free for some reason.
But that's kind of a good thing I think.
Keeps the value up for those who actually sell their own designs.

Even if a freebie is a good freebie. It's still just that one object. A design can get old and eventually gets the "Everyone has it" feeling.
So people buy things that may not even be as good. But at least it looks different.

It seems to me you might want to take a closer read of the Terms of Service (which, by the way, is a legally enforcable contract), Sean...

Mind you, it would be amusing in an ironic way if SL wound up shut down due to legal costs bankrupting LL, should someone decide to take it to court and stick with the suit no matter what.

Where?
And at most, they can delete your account.
Yeah I don't think they knew camping would come about when whichever section of the TOS was written.
But I dunno.
Maybe it's wrong to have my mouse move around on it's own.
Wait, isn't that what happens when we play the game to?
The mouse is part of windows.
Maybe Bill gates should get in on the subject heh

I'll bet whichever section it is, its talking about third party software to interact with the SL client.
This software people are using to move a mouse or press Enter over and over has nothing to do with the SL client. It only targets the mouse, or keyboard, which is Windows as the target. Or whichever OS someone uses.

So yeah, if Bill Gates has a problem with it. Fine.

Otherwise, If I had a program that changed the client software and directly cut out the timer. That would be against ToS for sure.
But I don't
I don't know how else to explain that.

LL can put in a program to detect that if they have a problem with it. Then there is the randomized chat typing to overide any detectors that look for repeated keys.

They could just take out the chat ability. Wouldn't that be fun

I agree And how do we know for sure that when they are moving the mouse around that they're just in awe of all the beautiful slot machines surrounding them. Who can tell and how would you prove it.

Just step away from the box....

I've heard the same sort of language from people trying and justify the use of third party cheats in TSO.

"It's not a third party program, I bought it, therefore it's mine".

"They can't tell, so it doesn't matter."

"It only does what I'd do if I was at the computer, so it's nothing wrong."

"I can do what I like on my own computer."

and the best of all...

"It doesn't affect anyone else, so what's the problem?"

As LL have the right to modify the terms of service at any time without notice, it wouldn't be difficult to write in something that prevents exactly the sort of cheating that supports extended camping. The only people who would have any real reason to complain would be those who are cheating in the first place - and I honestly wouldn't miss them.

I don't want to play a game where most of the people I come across are lifeless zombies being paid to sit or dance whilst they rack up cash.

Lewis

QUite easy. In TSO, it's a 15 minute inactivity timer.

If someone reports you for 'unattended macroing', and a customer service rep contacts you, your game will freeze until the CSR releases you. If you do not respond to them within that 15 minutes, your game should log out automatically through inactivity (the one function that still works) - if you don't, then that is proof that you are, somehow, overriding the timeout function; and you may get a warning, suspension or ban.

It wouldn't be too hard for LL to implement something similar, and of course anything that reduces people cheating benefits every legitimate player.

Lewis

True,
They can rewrite it as they wish to.
The question is what is practical here.

I dont know about the Sims game much but I know the sims can attempt to send people packing if they suspect someone is using such a program.
It is their service they provide after all.
Thats no different than the "No shirt, no service" signs you might see at stores.

The only point im saying is that they can only deny service at most if someone is using those programs.
Just like I could go play in another online economy world instead if I so wish.

Honestly I would like the camping to dissapear and be replaced by something that works for everyone. But that is what makes SL fun. Who knows what will happen.

I doubt a company wants to get rid of their income just because a few don't like the world.
I don't like the fact we can't do a lot of things in the game because of stuff that exists that others do. Like I'm not a fan of the slave idea. They don't stop me from doing anything but I dont like seeing it. I just don't understand it. And that is my problem. Not SL's and not theirs.
But I don't think SL will be shutting down those guys either.

:Addition:
Anyway the timer thing in TSO. What is legitimate in SL anyway?
You can keep items in the world as long as you wish.
Why should an avi be different?

Here is an idea. Make a 2k prim avi. Just saw one guy selling a suit with something near that many.
Then complain that it is rezed in the world all the time.

That thing will lag the sim more than any avi who stays online.
The only problem you see is sitting an avi as if it's a real person sitting doing nothing.
Avi's are numbers just like objects in the world.
Thats it.
It has no "Life"
heh

I understand what you are saying and agree that cheating shouldn't be allowed and yes it would benefit all by being able to monitor and ban cheaters. I, myself don't camp anymore, so I'm always broke lol, until I learn my poser prog that is...which may be awhile. But still I think the only person directly being hurt is the person having to pay the camper and if he wants to pay a zombie to sit there and take his $L, that should be his right. If he feels that he is being scammed, get rid of the chairs. Personally I don't look for the most popular places for things to do, I look for places that have something I am interested in, whether they are busy or not isn't an issue with me. So, I think we agree to disagree. Camping doesn't affect me but I can see how it may have an effect on you. I think they may have a benefit for some and not for others so where do we draw the line?

Just to add to the subject of camping. But taking it in another direction.

At one time I was going to make a non-physical ship that held a good number of people doing various animated tasks. They appeared to actually be pressing buttons on the ship for example. Not that it matters.
Anyway, that ship I was going to be given out as a mobile camping platform.

It works somewhat like this:

If someone wanted traffic, an order gets placed for some set amount of traffic or time.
The ship owner, "captain", whatever you want to call it, will then fly the ship to the spot and dock until the traffic is at least as high as the amount ordered.

With all crew members still seated, and the ship being non-phsical, it allows the ship to move a lot of people wherever the pilot wants to bringing them.
Those people, or crew members, don't have to be there of course. To them its no different than any other campout or dance pad.
The only time they might get ejected is if there were no orders for camp time. So they get sent home. Their "work shift" is done as it were.
And of course they could all see the order list in the ship if they wanted to know how long they had until their work is done. (exculding SL down time of course)

Also there is the fact that the ship could be automated to move off and on the property every 5 minutes. By moving back on again for 5 minutes it might help to raise traffic even more as triggers of people coming and going are made. If that is even how it works anymore. (I never bothered to read up really.)
But it had that option with a customized timer and so forth.

Anyway,
I'm not going to released it.
Someone else can make one if they want.

I don't want to be thrown in a burning pit by anti-camper groups.

I was thinking it would help with lag as far as client side goes. The campers would be out of sight floating in a ship above the property.
I dunno.

Of course there could be advertisments on the monitors within the ship for those wanting it to be seen by campers when they log in or off eventually.

But "AutoMouseClicker" searched via Google is a Freeware program

I really hope SL doesn't have to institute a TOS ban on unattended macroing! Such a thing is a fairly significant red light for some people, since 99% of the games that have them are "grinding" games.

As has been pointed out before, there will always be some "most popular" activity on SL that people will lose out if they don't provide. If it wasn't camping chairs folks would complain that no-one was visiting their carefully designed builds because they were too busy with the guy across the sim who just rezzed a bunch of stretched box prim seats and a Tringo board.