Is this bad buisness ?

A friend of mine made a mistake and didn't pay attention to a simple rule and ended up buying some hair that she didn't like.
She IM'd the owner explained what she had done and simply asked for a different hair style.
Long story short owner refused to do anything for her at all and myelf being her friend had IM'd the owner.
My friend went on her way and decided if the owner wasn't going to help her she would go elsewhere with her buisness.
Me being of firey temper talked in depth to the owner.
Her responce was well how do i know she isn't jsut looking for a freebie.
i told her it was a simple mistake on my friends part.
owner also replied vigorously as to the type of people she has to deal with (her customers).
This whole thing set me off the wrong way that she would assume that everyone who IM'd her pertaining to her buisness was just trying to cheat her out of .. what ?
this is just an opinion but this has happened to me twice since I've been in SL and both times the owners of different shops took care of me. I guess they were suckers then ? ...... or wise buisness people who knew that there is a higher purpose to customer service ?
For me to assume everyone that Im's you about an item they just bought is trying to cheat you out of something is wrong.
second golden rule is take care of the customer and the customer will take care of you.
In closing just leave an opinion I'm sure the person I'm talking about will look and will not leave her shops name or admit to assuming that everyone she deals with is dishonest.
She knows I can prove her poor disposition so she cannot deny what I have said.

I dunno, business in SL is not like business in RL.

In RL, if you buy Widget X from me, and then decide you don't like Widget X, you can give it back to me and I will hand you back your money. The transaction is reversed and it's zero-sum for both parties involved. (Not always the case, in that if there's shipping involved and whatnot, but you get the idea.)

The same applies to SL, *IF* Widget X is set to transfer/nocopy.

If it isn't, then the customer can certainly demand a refund but he/she can't actually give the item back. So they basically get a refund and get to keep the item. There's no way the seller can know if the user deleted it in good faith. This puts a bit of an advantage to those wanting refunds.

Generally I've handled it in good faith, though it honestly depends on how the customer approachs me when they want a refund for copy/notrans items. I tend to work on an "all sales are FINAL" approach, but have made exceptions when someone really truly made a mistake (on either side).

This, to me, is a annoying oversight in the permission system that tends to be make most sellers gun shy of requests for refunds.

Only time will tell if it was a bad business decision on the part of the store owner not to give a refund, an angry customer like yourself can spread a lot of bad press. I really think however, that to expect the store owner to correct your mistakes at their own expense is really to expect far too much.

The store owner *might* be extra special nice and help you out, but you have absolutely no right to expect it as a customer. Additionaly, if you ask for a refund or a freebie and the owner says they "don't think so," to badger them about it for a long period of time and try to change their mind is pretty low class IMO. You should accept the store owners decision with grace and a bit of class.

It also seems to me from the post above that not only do you make a habit of this sort of thing, but here you are complaining in public the very first time you *don't* get your way. That's kind of juvenile and petty IMO. Maybe you should take responsibility for your own mistakes and not expect to be bailed out every time.

This is only my opinion of course, but you asked, ... so there it is.

I bet you take a lot of stuff back to the store in RL too.

If the item is both no copy/no transfer, then the customer could drop the item onto the seller's land, and the seller can delete it. I believe, in that situation, the item is not moved into a trash folder.

Edit: Oh yeah, duh... can't have both no copy and no transfer set.

That's not quite true. Many locations have laws that state a refund must be given for defective/etc products, but there's not really any particular rule that states they must give a refund simply because a person doesn't like the item.

It is usually a good thing towards customer satisfaction, but it's seldom a requirement. If they refuse a refund over a case of 'I didnt like it', then that's their choice...even if it does likely mean a lost future customer.


- Newfie

I don't think it's possible to make something no copy/no transfer. Every time I've unchecked the "Copy" box, the "Transfer" box not only checks itself, it grays out.

Without being there and seeing the chatlogs all I can say is, as a former business owner, that we valued our customers beyond all else. That is why we made all of our things copy/mod but no transfer. We also had a demo version of everything that we sold.

If a customer was not happy after a purchase we also offered free in-home alterations. To the best of my knowledge no one ever requested their money back. I mean how could they after trying out the product for free?

In most cases I give refunds. On some of my items I pay commisions to other people and can be losing 300-400 per refund because I'm not stingy enough to go to my partners and ask for money back. Many of my IMs like this just requires consumer education to make them happy with the product.

With that said, I have refused on more than 1 occasion simply because the buyer was rude, made false accusations, or something made me suspicious. That really is a rare occasion though.

If the hair was no transfer, then I don't blame the shop keeper at all for not giving her another item. I have bought the wrong hair, noticed it was no transfer and then bitched AT MYSELF while buying the hair I DID want.

Your friend should pay more attention to what she is buying. And if an item is set to no transfer, oh well. Why should the shop keeper trust someone to delete it after she hands out another hair style? I wouldn't do it either.

Oh, and it wasn't your transaction so you should have stayed out of it and not bitched at the person. You really had nothing to do with it.

I am not the store owner in question here, but I do sell hair. I do feel for the situation of the buyer but can also relate to the uncertainty of the seller in this case as to whether or not they are being scammed on . In my store I have a policy of no refunds on no- transfer items but I do deal with people on a case by case basis. How your friend/ you approached the person has more to do with it than you think. I would say when contacting the store owner be polite, remember that its not THEIR fault that you bought the wrong thing, dont treat them like it is. They want your business, they dont want you to be unhappy but they dont want to feel all used up either. Try to think of a solution like a replacement rather than a refund , etc.

Oh and above someone mentioned to have the person rez a copy and let the owner delete it . Great idea ,but if the item is ' no transfer' and is copiable , wont they still be able to have a copy of it in there inventory even after they rez it to be deleted?

To Dianna
So sorry sweety I rarely return items and I thought rude and obnotous of the store owner to have done what she did at 0 cost to her but a high cost to her buisness in the end and funny you have insite that is just uncanny anyhow rude is as rude does I just gave back what i was given

It's not 0 cost to her. Had she given a refund and your friend not deleted the hair, she would have effectively lost however much the hair was sold for, since your friend would have been getting free hair.

It's "Dianne," and your welcome.

Maybe I read a bit too much into your post, but you did say that you had returned several items before and you did say that you argued with the person a long time about it even though it wasn't even your purchase.

To me that's just rude.

Personally I generally would give the freebie to the customer, unless something told me that the person was just trying to get something for nothing. My point was that anyone with any class would not ask for a new different product in the first place, especially with things in SL being so cheap. I know I never would. I think you just have an overworked sense of entitlement.

Most people in the same situation would just whack themselves in the forehead for being so dumb and buy another one. Especially after having asked and being told they dont want to refund you.

The only times anything similar has ever happened to me is when someone has bought something of mine that doesn't work for some reason. In those cases I gave them a new, working copy of the item in question and some other item I make as a free bonus for their troubles. I don't ask for them to destroy the old item or give it back, so I can be easily "taken" by people like you for three products for the price of one, so you should look me up!

It all depends on the person's attitude and how they present themselves though. From my reading of your description of the events around your friends purchase and your purchase history, it sounds to me like you might be one of the first persons I *wouldn't* refund.

Well, while i can see both sides of the issue, it is in fact 0 cost to her as it is a copy already in her inventory that would otherwise just sit there. I do believe in being cautious and I wouldn't like the idea of thinking someone had just pulled one over on me, but at the same time I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt.

Recently I had someone ask me if I had a t-shirt version of something she'd bought from me in undershirt form. I told her no problem, I could locate the texture in my files somewhere (it was an old one) and make her one. But because I had some RL things happen and couldn't get it done for a few days I felt badly about so didn't bother to charge her for the extra item ... not even the upload fee it cost me. Then twice this month I've talked someone out of purchasing an expensive version of a service I sell and talked them into purchasing the cheaper version because I felt it served their needs better.

Hmm... come to think of it, maybe I'm just a lousy businesswoman lmao.

My point is when dealing with customer service, unless the person just clearly doesn't deserve it or is just horribly rude, I think we should be putting the service before the almighty L$.... after all, as I said in the beginning, in the end what does it really cost us?

Most hair designers take detailed pics of the hair AND put out demos so you can "try before you buy". It's not a shop owners responsibilty to replace an item that is no transfer simply because someone "doesn't like it", when they could of tried it before they bought it. As mentioned before, it would be at the shop owners loss, since they cannot receive the item back (and placing the item on the sim to delete doesn't work...cause it's copy...a copy remains in your inventory still). Also, the policy is usually placed in the store someplace...most shop owners try to make their policies as clear as possible so that there are no misunderstandings when it comes to returns and lack of (atleast that's what I have noticed both as a shopaholic and shop owner myself) and most hair shops state "NO TRANSFER - NO REFUNDS - NO EXCEPTIONS" and most of them put atleast 2 signs in their stores.

Second off - you didn't purchase the item, and as upset for your friend as you were, you had no right to go off on the owner. You didn't buy the item, it wasn't your business to do so. In my opinion the shop owner shouldn't even of "argued" with you for as long as she/he did. (and no, it wasn't me )

So in conclusion - just because you don't get your way...doesn't mean the store owner is wrong...when it's their policy no transfer = no refunds. Everyone chooses to handle their return policies differently, some are strict some may bend the rules here and there. But even so, If you walked into a real life store and didn't get your way, would you write a newspaper article and complain? I think not...or then again...maybe you would...

Also, after reading your profile...the "ask me for a notecard of the convo" part might be against SL TOS...you may wanna look into that...

By that logic, if my vendor scripts all throw a fit and start giving my products away for free to anyone who clicks on them, it hasn't cost me anything. No, the actual balance in my account wouldn't go down, but I would be losing money.

Personally, I'm inclined to give refunds -- I've even contacted people on my own and offered a refund when it looked like they'd made a mistake -- but it's not like they don't cost me anything.

No transfer = no refund.

Simple, clear, fair policy.



Saves everyone a lot of time and drama.

Can't see the item before purchase? Ask to see it.



It's one thing to be good to customers.

But it's quite another thing, if you are expected to do 2 for 1 sales on demand.

Well, I just want to put my two cents in....and I apologize for kind of not reading anyone's response but wanting to hurry up and making my point.

The situation to me is pretty simple. As yes I do understand the frustration a customer must feel when they've purchased the wrong item for whatever reason...color, fit, wrong style, whatever. I was a hair buyer long before I was a hair maker. But the fact is that the OP's friend said she didn't realize what the bottom of the style looked and she asked me if I could give her another style instead.

But my hair.. ALL of them..are copy/modify/and no transfer. So basically she was asking me for a free hairstyle....is how I perceived this. Anyway, so I told her that I apologize that she didn't realize what the style looked like, but that I do have FREE demos that people can try before buying. Which is...click the big poster and boom a DEMO....I also have signs posted all over my shop and on my picks about my policy on returns and refunds. And rather than saying okay and carrying on her way she tells her friend (the OP) and I'm harrassed.

Honestly, I'm sure I would kick myself too if I bought something "I will never wear" LOL actually I've done that many times...with things more pricey than my hair...like skin. But what can you do when you're a consumer and the merchant has clear policies. Except kick yourself and learn a lesson to either be more careful on what you right click, select buy, and enter in a price for or to click on the poster that says "click for DEMO" and try it on to see if it suits you.

And then to bash me saying my business practices were shady (in so many words) is down right false, when I've done nothing wrong but enforce my policies that I set for MY products. I never once said that I assume all my customers are dishonest, but rather how do I tell the difference between who is and who isn't.....that's why i have a policy. I don't know everyone in SL nor do they know me...so how is a merchant supposed to know when they are being taken advantage of or not. I would love to be the nice naiive avie I was when I first started...but I've already learned that lesson. So I made a policy. So I can't tell by an IM of who is honest or not...who is sincere or not...who will wear the hair or not....so whether they are or not, the policy is the same across the board.

So yes, I could have given her a free new hairstyle....but how is that fair to the other people who have requested the same thing of me and I told them what my policy was. I believe in consistency and fairness. For those who know me and have dealt with me before I'm sure they'll agree with me. All I do and want to do with my SL is make and release hair...as I'm sure you've seen in the classifieds...I love to create.

Sorry for my long windedness but I took this very personnaly because I was attacked by the OP and she even put in her picks that people shouldn't shop at my store (which is her perrogative) and that if they want details to IM her for the notecard of the conversation. LOL sooo, I dunno...too much drama for this mama.

They've already made it clear they will take their business else where and I can respect that. I even recommended a couple of places...so, why bring it to the forums? To get a rise out of me maybe? Mission accomplished.



And to respond to that....lol I can't help but leave my shop's name becuase it's my name with "designs" at the end. Elika Tiramisu Designs! I take pride in my work and I love making SL avies pretty (or try to). Whether this hurts my business or not....I'm still going to create....because I love to do it. But thanks for trying to discourage me LOL I'm a single mom...if I can tackle that I can tackle anything

Oh well yes absolutely. In that case you are out potential earnings and yea that would very annoying. Your family won't starve and you won't have to spend money making new inventory but yes you'd be effectively losing what you WOULD have made. I'm not going to argue against that lol.. I can imagine how irritating it would be.

What i'm talking about is just one copy of something that didnt cost you anything to make. There are the initial uploads and stuff from the first copy but after that its really just piled up inventory and POTENTIAL profit. But from reading what you just said about refunds, it sounds like you dont worry too much about the occasional free thing given either. Better a happy customer who may come back for more than a miserable one who will tell all his friends to shop elsewhere.

I didn't notice the OP had done that.... thats a bit extreme. I may be in the habit of being the naive avie and maybe i'll change as i do more business, maybe i won't. Your policy upset them and that happens. I can understand your side and theirs. But nooo to the OP, if someone purposely rips you off and steals from you, well then i can see badmouthing their business. But in this situation it was simply a policy disagreement and while you have the right to disagree and wish it were different and even tell your friends to be aware of the policy.... giving out copies of a private conversation is just a bit much. Just my little opinion.

Wow, this thread has caused an uproar on the Couture Isle sim. Oh ya my first time posting. Hi everyone

Lemme just say that I'm hella new to this game, but I 100% support Elika, not only does she have some of the best hair in SL but she's very helpful to newbies. I guess she recently started a "Newbie Line" which is $L50 for 5 hairs!! How great is that?! And very nice hair too, not crappy rejects but really nice! For us poor folks

So when word got around that someone bashed Elika I had to step in and say something. Elika's customer service is great! I was minding my business shopping at her store one day and she just randomly passed out gift cards to everyone on the sim. EVERYONE! I guess she does that a lot.

Personally I dunno if I would be as mad as you are on behalf of your friend's dumb mistake. I've been to Elika's shop and the first day even as a new person I could READ. The poster says CLICK FOR DEMO. Why didn't she do that? Maybe didn't feel like it? Is that Elika's fault? The demo is free if you didn't know.

She also has a lot of signs saying no refunds, it also dispenses a notecard with detailed info about her policy.

I think HeavyMetal is just PO'd that you didn't get your way or are jealous at Elika's success.

Elika if you read this don't worry, I will always be a life long customer because of your generosity and GREAT HAIR!

Don't get me wrong I give refunds, if people buy duplicates on accident. I also refund or exchange hair for noobletts sometimes, but simply because a person "didn't realize what the bottom of the hair style looked like" I'd probably do it if I didn't have free demos of all my hairstyles. But I simply told her where I stood and that in turn I guess equals to bad business practices.



Aww thanks Maliyah. Much appreciated.

No, an angry customer can spread bad press about "a hair store" on the forums. Is it Lashed? ETD? Panache? One of the hundreds of others? Who knows!

HUGSSSSS Elika You have always conducted business fairly IMO and even helped me a many times when I'm standing there in a Duh trance looking at all the wonderful "hairs" you have LOL. Girl dont let them get you down you were absolutely within your right (policy clearly posted) and have no regrets.. maybe she didnt want to spend the 1L for the DEMO... but hopefully learned it is well worth the investment. Love your Hair.. Love your Customer Service!!