Stagecoach Island defects to ActiveWorlds
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
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01-09-2006 17:43
From: Eggy Lippmann You know, I would kinda like to see that mythical contract myself  I'm not a lawyer, but Foxy claims she signed something that somehow gave them the rights. But how can she possibly grant someone rights on content that she didn't make? Bedazzle is not a legally registered entity, and neither me, Jimmy, or the vendors ever signed anything saying they granted Foxy any rights that she could give away. Where I'm getting at is, do groups have any legal meaning outside SL? Does the fact that you join a group or marginally collaborate with a group instantly grant the founder legal rights over our content? If so, where does it end? Cubey's skydiving, for instance, is only related to Stagecoach Island very tangentially. I can accept the fact that Jimmy probably sent them a copy of his textures and said they were ok to use... but why did they go around taking snapshots of stuff? To me, it seems like someone copied Cubey's stuff without permission, but as I said I'm not a lawyer. Ancient chinese curse said, may you live in interesting times Sorry to read this Eggy, Hugz. Mar |
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Beryl Greenacre
Big Scaredy-Baby
Join date: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,312
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01-09-2006 17:45
Wow, how nice to hear from Reuben on this matter about a month and a half after the fact, and via a general forum thread. Though I was tapped to sell content on Stagecoach Island, perhaps I just don't run in the right in-world circles to have heard through the grapevine what the final outcome was (i.e. the move to Activeworlds). I guess I can assume my original agreement is null and void and no payment for content provided will be forthcoming. I am usually something of a Linden apologist, but if this is the standard way they intend to conduct business with independent content-creation contractors... I don't think I'm interested.   (And yes, though Bedazzled originally contacted me, it was Reuben who sent notice of the actual contract for full usage of and payment for content provided. And any money made from sales on Stagecoach Island was incredibly negligible since I set my items to sell for L$2 or L$3 apiece, per the suggested selling price, and there were relatively few sales made.)
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Moonshine Herbst
none
Join date: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 483
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01-09-2006 17:53
From: Enabran Templar Oh, I dunno. Our dear Cocoanut made such a dramatic show when this was announced, you'll forgive my cynicism re: her wild overestimations. You can't have more fun than the fun you make of others, eh? What a loser you are. |
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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01-09-2006 17:53
From: Satchmo Prototype If the contract was with Foxy, and she gave them the rights, it was her responsibility to let all subcontractors know their work would become the property of Wells Fargo. I'm speculating a bit on the arrangement of course.
Signing the rights over is not an unreasonable request or business move. People want to own what they pay for. Not letting subcontractors know about the arrangement is a mistake. The thing is, the people who were invited to sell stuff in the island were never really hired or told anything about the project. They gained nothing from it and devoted a significant amount of their time to our project. If SL is ever going to hit the mainstream content production/comsumption market, these issues need to be made more clear. Joining Bedazzle is not the same as being hired by someone, and heck, they didnt even join Bedazzle, they joined a separate group called "Elite". |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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01-09-2006 17:55
From: Beryl Greenacre Wow, how nice to hear from Reuben on this matter about a month and a half after the fact, and via a general forum thread. Not shocking. It's hardly something for which you'd want to issue a press release. In any case, communication isn't really Linden Lab's strong suit these days. That's growth for you.
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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01-09-2006 17:55
From: Martin Magpie Sorry to read this Eggy, Hugz.
Mar No need to be sorry. I loved working on this project, even though the pay was absolute crap. I am still a close friend of Foxy and would love to work with them in the future. |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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01-09-2006 17:55
From: Moonshine Herbst You can't have more fun than the fun you make of others, eh? What a loser you are. o rly! edit: oh, and calling someone out on their bs isn't mockery. You'll know my mockery when you see it.
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.
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Satchmo Prototype
eSheep
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,323
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01-09-2006 17:59
From: Eggy Lippmann The thing is, the people who were invited to sell stuff in the island were never really hired or told anything about the project. They gained nothing from it and devoted a significant amount of their time to our project.
Ah thus my faulty speculation. I thought content creators would have been subcontracted. Very tricky issue indeed, and I feel really bad for anyone who was biten by this. I agree, the arrangment should have been more clear. It would be intersting to see what the original contract said, as Wells Fargo probably really believed they owned the rights to everything on the island. |
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Margaret Mfume
I.C.
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 2,492
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01-09-2006 18:00
From: Enabran Templar o rly! I wouldn't say loser, but you really do come off as having it in for Coco. Sorry, Enabran, it's the truth.
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
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01-09-2006 18:01
From: Eggy Lippmann No need to be sorry. I loved working on this project, even though the pay was absolute crap. I am still a close friend of Foxy and would love to work with them in the future. Good I'm glad it all worked out for you, |
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Magnum Serpentine
Registered User
Join date: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,811
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01-09-2006 18:04
From: Cubey Terra Here are some images from both versions of Stagecoach Island. I tried to match the angle. I believe, CUbey, the DMCA comes into play if you choose to pursue it |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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01-09-2006 18:07
From: Margaret Mfume I wouldn't say loser, but you really do come off as having it in for Coco. Sorry, Enabran, it's the truth. Don't apologize, Margaret, it's not some painful remark. Cocoanut's shrill tone certainly bothers me a whole lot more than other Chicken Little posters, I think that's hardly a secret.
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.
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Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
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01-09-2006 18:19
From: Reuben Linden
That said -- despite the dissappointment of seeing this project move to ActiveWorlds, it was a very powerful learning experience for us at LL. We are moving towards having a much better idea of what works and what does not in this type of project and also towards understanding how to handle such projects better in the future.
r
Reuben has a good point. Not every SL/RL business relationship is going to work out, just like not every business/client relationship works out. There's no perfect fit for every scenario, and the best you can do is to try and learn from the situations that didn't work out. Given that we're still practically at the starting gate, I wouldn't worry too much. It seems like a bad omen, but what LL is going to learn from this is going to be invaluable to gaining and retaining other RL businesses in SL.
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Torrid Midnight
Work in progress
Join date: 13 May 2003
Posts: 814
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01-09-2006 18:23
Those of us who were asked to sell our products were offered a small amount of US$ in exchange for the lindens taking control of the items. We were told that we'd also receive any L$ from sales during the beta period after it was over. I had no clue that the beta had even ended or any information at all til I saw this thread. I'm guessing we're either not getting the $L from the sales or there were no sales to get $L from. It doesn't surprise me that most of us weren't informed about this project. I love LL and all but this was all handled poorly from the beginning.
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Magnum Serpentine
Registered User
Join date: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 1,811
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01-09-2006 18:32
From: Cristiano Midnight DDO=Dungeons and Dragons Online - it is a new MMORPG coming out next much that is based on the actual D&D pen and paper game series. You are correct, it is Active Worlds that was bumping people for even saying Second Life. At a minimun cost of 50 bucks, I think it will be a very good long while before I go in there. (Althought I might had already Pre-Ordered it a while back in that case I will be there opening day) |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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01-09-2006 18:51
From: Torrid Midnight Those of us who were asked to sell our products were offered a small amount of US$ in exchange for the lindens taking control of the items. We were told that we'd also receive any L$ from sales during the beta period after it was over. I had no clue that the beta had even ended or any information at all til I saw this thread. I'm guessing we're either not getting the $L from the sales or there were no sales to get $L from. It doesn't surprise me that most of us weren't informed about this project. I love LL and all but this was all handled poorly from the beginning. Hey Torrid, looking at your forum icon, these aren't your corsets/bustiers are they? : 
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. 
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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01-09-2006 18:53
From: Magnum Serpentine At a minimun cost of 50 bucks, I think it will be a very good long while before I go in there. (Althought I might had already Pre-Ordered it a while back in that case I will be there opening day) The same thing happened to me with the Matrix Online. I preordered it to get into the beta, and then the beta just totally sucked. I forgot all about it, and then when the game came out, it showed up on my doorstep. I installed it hoping the release was perhaps somehow better, but it wasn't - it was somehow worse than the beta, which is an amazing feat. Thankfully none of that is true with DDO - the beta has been extremely impressive and I can't wait to get the final release.
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
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Burke Prefect
Cafe Owner, Superhero
Join date: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 2,785
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01-09-2006 19:07
From: Cristiano Midnight The same thing happened to me with the Matrix Online. I preordered it to get into the beta, and then the beta just totally sucked. I forgot all about it, and then when the game came out, it showed up on my doorstep. I installed it hoping the release was perhaps somehow better, but it wasn't - it was somehow worse than the beta, which is an amazing feat. Thankfully none of that is true with DDO - the beta has been extremely impressive and I can't wait to get the final release. I did that two, but with Earth & Beyond. Oh.... that's part of why I'm loathe to invest in another treadmill MMORPG. When you DIE REPEATEDLY because the server sucks ass, and it costs you points.... Although, if I had the installer still, I'd like to rip all that ambient music.... |
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
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01-09-2006 19:16
A large step backwards on the road to the Metaverse. That is the opinion I form after reading each and every post in this thread.
I am disapointed in the process that lead to this thread. There is more to be told. So I will sit on my hands for now.
Mar
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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01-09-2006 19:21
From: Martin Magpie A large step backwards on the road to the Metaverse. That is the opinion I form after reading each and every post in this thread.
I am disapointed in the process that lead to this thread. There is more to be told. So I will sit on my hands for now.
Mar I think of it more as a learning process. Yeah, it sucks that this project went elsewhere, and that SL is a victim of its own cutting edge complexity and technical missteps. If any good can come out of it, it will be hopefully be efforts to make SL easier to use and more adaptable to different machine capabilities. That is supposedly some of the promise of the new graphics engine - to be scalable on different hardware. It's not going to solve the user experience though. I think some forthcoming changes, including HTML and some other things, will continue to help make SL more compelling. Not every business opportunity is going to work out, but I do hope some change and growth can come from this experience.
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
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Lianne Marten
Cheese Baron
Join date: 6 May 2004
Posts: 2,192
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01-09-2006 19:22
To lighten the mood a little... I just thought i'd mention that I am currently updating DDO, and it is on file #96 of 1,070,634,770.
Might take a few minutes ^_^
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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01-09-2006 19:27
From: Lianne Marten To lighten the mood a little... I just thought i'd mention that I am currently updating DDO, and it is on file #96 of 1,070,634,770.
Might take a few minutes ^_^ LOL that happened to me after I downloaded it - after about file 5,000 or something it suddenly speeds up really fast and the next thing you know, you are in.
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
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Damanios Thetan
looking in
Join date: 6 Mar 2004
Posts: 992
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01-09-2006 19:34
Watch out... DDO (just like WoW) will use regional servers. So don't go preorder either a US or euro copy before you've decided with whom (or in what timezone) you'd like to play the game. Server switching is NOT possible... DDO forum linkI know, I know.. off topic. |
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
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01-09-2006 19:45
Well one of the things about a contract is that it is always good to consult with a lawyer before entering inot one, to be sure details like rights are taken care of. Its pretty standard practice to put a worker for hire clause in any contract where by the actual artist agrees that any work is property of the corporation (animation studios are a perfect example). Thus anyone who contributed the to the group, if the group was a worker for hire, likely is bound by those provisions, although tis hard to say without seeing the actual terms of the contract.
Well fargos points about cost and system requirements are well taken. Although really this is the kind of stuff that users would like to know about. We all have an interest in this topic, because we are all potentially service providers to corporate clients.
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Lebeda 208,209
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Cubey Terra
Aircraft Builder
Join date: 6 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,725
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01-09-2006 20:17
From: Jake Reitveld Well one of the things about a contract is that it is always good to consult with a lawyer before entering inot one, to be sure details like rights are taken care of. Its pretty standard practice to put a worker for hire clause in any contract where by the actual artist agrees that any work is property of the corporation (animation studios are a perfect example). Thus anyone who contributed the to the group, if the group was a worker for hire, likely is bound by those provisions, although tis hard to say without seeing the actual terms of the contract. Thanks for the dose of BS legalese, Jake. What contract are you talking about? Oh yes, that's right... you're just making it up to make yourself sound important. You have no idea what you're talking about. There was no contract.
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