Kill Stipends = Kill Second Life

I think stipends are a good thing.

As the economy grows and the number of poeple in SL grows, we need more lindens in circulation. If we didn't, we'd see the cost of lindens skyrocket and probably see a recession in SL. Stipends are a good way to introduce new money into the system in a way that keeps casual players happy, and more happy casual players who want to have fun is exactly what SL needs.

Brace I agree 100% with your blog post. Saving the "economy" is slowly killing the fun!

Why did they get rid of the ability to get a landmark from profiles??

I will be selling my land and downgrading to basic if they get rid of premium stipends.

I wish LL would poll ALL MEMBERS before making decisions that affect all members.

What this posts says

Killing stipends will cause a serious recession and the ones that want them cut will end up hurting there business anyways.

Just keep the per capita per player even and everything should be fine.

First of all, I have extensive experience in class action litigation and in this case, I have had a legal opinion expressed to me from my attorney (who incidentally is admitted in CA), based on the current TOS.

Linden Lab provides a "service" and under this policy, provides a stipend.



The last time I read the TOS, I am permitted to particpate in these forums, at my discretion. Your suggestion that my engaging in discussion within this forum as trolling, is little more than a personal attack, which I will remind you, is a violation of the TOS. I have had "grounds" explained to me, therefore your assertion is merely that, and not fact.



Direct me to "direct" quotes from LL staff, where they have indicated an intention to remove stipends from premium subscribers. Do not present "assumptions" based on other policies.

I do get a stipend and I don't owe 20 businesses, I'm a newbie who is still learning about SL. I accidentally gave away 80 bucks the other day when I rating somebody who was nice to me, I didn't realize you had to pay to rate somebody until after I did it. The stipend is a nice safety net for us beginners while we are adjusting to SL. Without the stipend I don't I would try as many things because I would be worried I may accidentally buy or give away part of my limited supply of funds.

Firstly Red, welcome to Second Life. The 75 bucks spent on ratings does seem like alot of money to a new resident alright. It's can also be said, that it's a small price to pay, if the person you rated did indeed, do you a good turn.

That said, I agree wholly with you, that your weekly stipend is important to you to function in a highly economically driven environment, particularily when you are new and have yet to develop a business model or have yet to find other revenue sources.

The directory service fee is $30L per week per parcel, so by virtue of each calendar week, I sink $600L or more than $2000 per month. To me, it's the cost of doing business, so I'm really not complaining, other than if the stipend was to be cut, would cost me more.

We don't need to take money away from those who need it most, we need more money sinks provided by those who can more afford it, including me. I would pay more for uploads, I would pay for P2P and I would pay to list events.

Stopping the newbie stipend was a Bad Thing, imho. Even some freebies are set at $1L. Newbies need a little shopping money, even if it's only a one time handout, or they will be confused and/or annoyed by the inabilty to buy absolutely anything at all. Or even upload a single thing. I understand LL stopping the $50 weekly for basic, but for someone just setting foot in SL, who doesn't have a clue (and I'm still a newbie myself), being penniless is going to make the sell of SL, which already has a very steep learning curve, a tough one. Most people are going to try before they buy, they aren't going to sign up for a premium account before they see SL, and to get into it you need a little money to help you get started. Buying something makes you want to buy some more...

I have a basic account. I don't think I can quite be considered a newbie any longer, as I joined last October. I've been considering getting a premium account for purposes of owning land. One reason I've hesitated about doing so is that I don't have time to log in every day, so I'm not sure it would be worth it. I have plenty to do in RL, as I have a job which takes a good portion of my time and I'm a father of two young children who are quite active in sports. Therefore, I must spend more time as a chauffeur and earning a paycheck than I may spend playing a game, regardless of my desires. I've experimented with creating content and the 50L$ weekly basic stipend allows some amount of experimentation (albeit not too much), although I don't believe that I'm good enough yet to make it worth while getting a premium account. I also do not have enough disposible income in RL to spend it on a game until I can earn at least some portion of it back through my SL efforts. Once again, this requires having time that I can spend working within the game. While this might be fun, at this point in my experiences, it will not put food on the table. Therefore, if the stipends are eliminated (and reading this forum seems to to tell me that they have already stopped for new basic accounts), I may be forced to quit playing SL altogether. Part of the enjoyment for me of playing SL is the ability to create my own online content, and eliminating the stipends will seriously curtail that ability, if not eliminate it completely. I have played MUDs, MUSHes, and MOOs in the past, and being unable to create content often caused me to drop that particular game. Being forced to pay just to participate at all generally kept me from even trying the ones that did so. Thus, I am against eliminating stipends and, as you can see, this is a reasoned response and not just the knee-jerk reaction of a "child to the taking away of his candy". Yes, Linden Labs has the right to take away anything they like, and if there are few enough people like me, they may not suffer from doing so, but, if there are a number of people like me, it could have a large effect. Correct me if I'm wrong, but was there not a large surge in interest as well as new memberships, when LL started giving out the free basic accounts rather than requiring new members to pay from the beginning? In point of fact, I, myself, did not even consider joining until they did so. Consider, LL, that you may be cutting off your nose to spite your face by ending the stipends.

First we had the land barons. Then we had the content barons. Soon we'll have the money barons.

I still can't believe people are seriously posting on this thread considering the tone of the OP.

But... for the futility of actually chipping in to the constructive side of this thread, my 2 bits:

The majority of the SecondLife is funded by a minority of it's population. Less than 20% are premium accounts. Less than 30% appear to use the Lindex. How Linden Labs shares a slice of their pie with the content creators and service providers in SecondLife is largely up to them. (%'s are very approximate based on data released in the last 1-3 months)

I, personally, would prefer to see newbie stipends remain... but recognize that it costs LL time and money trying to police the creation of new accounts to discourage the dorks that abuse the system by farming alt accounts. I'd rather they use that time and money less on policing accounts and more on marketing SecondLife better.

There are too many factors and too many ways of interpreting them for any of us to prove much of anything. ANY one factor if sufficiently tweaked could cause long term damage to the popularity and health of SecondLife's population. Getting all worked up about any one of them is largely a waste of energy.

The only option LL has is to gradually change SecondLife bit by bit to see how things shake out. They will make mistakes... they will compensate for the mistakes... some people will leave in a huff (like the original poster for this thread)... and others will find SecondLife more appealing as a result and fill their vacant shoes.

Frankly, I think too much of the population is too obsessed with trying to break even by selling virtual tee-shirts or the equivalent.

If a whack at freebie money causes a drop in shopping and shakes out a few merchants, I'm not going to whine about it. If the L$ value strengthens and I can suddenly cover my tier fees with my meager in-world revenue, bueno! I'm fine either way.

In either case, I wouldn't mind seeing some balance restored between the rampant crass commercialism and the former more "creativity for it's own sake" world we had before.

It goes both ways, content creators have no more right to demand conditions that suit them than consumers have the right to log in, play and buy things for free.

If you're a content creator and think you can make money here good luck to you, but if you aren't, try changing your business model or just accept the way things are in this wholly owned and controlled world, rather than demanding changes as if it was essential for everyone elses existance here. It really isn't.

If you're here and playing for free whilst complaining about stipends then shell out the $10 already ! You're a grown adult for heavens sake, with a decent computer, internet connection and i bet, a pretty good standard of living. This is cheap entertainment at any cost. If you'll leave for the sake of a few cents free money every week then I have to doubt your commitment to SL.

I think Brace posted from an impression of the Land & Economy forum, but by her own admission she has been weaning herself out of SL, and I dont think has followed the 'debate' so closely - there are far fewer proponents (that I can see) of stipend cutting than she implies, and the 'debate' is far from one sided. Though it is certainly long winded.

Ive popped up a poll to help gauge opinions: for, against and fed-up with the 'debate'
here: 112726

Get a broader sense of general opinion seems to be Brace's goal, so I hope she wont mind me posting the link here...

cheers

I am a basic account, and always have been, although I am definitely not a newbie. Yes, it was easier for me to start out with SL, however that had much more to do with having people in the game I already knew helping me out and being able to meet a lot of new friends, than me getting a stippend. To date I have yet to own land. To me the "fun" of SL was never really about having money or being able to buy lots of clothing and accesories. The fun was in learning how to build, how to make things interract with the world (script), exploring my creative side, and at the same time hanging out with the huge amount of friends I have on here. All of that costs $0l. Yes, I'm just one guy, it's my own opinion on things, and I'm no doubt different from anyone else, but that doesn't mean that other people, who come here without a stippend or money, can't have fun either. And despite being a basic with a $50l a week stippend I have made a lot of $L in this game. Enough so that I burn my $50l every week. If newbies want to know how to make money, look for people who look like they have it. Not the help staff standing around the welcome area but the shop owners. Learn how to use the find feature, find out who owns shops and businesses, and talk to people. Learn about businesses, find out how money works, and practice social skills that will no doubt help you in yor first life, too. And if that's too much work, you can always either just buy extra cash on Lindex, or enjoy life without money. It can be done.
In the years I've been here I pretty much heard the same things as the quote above over and over. First we had prim barons, and content barons, and money barons. Then prim taxes were cut and over-all sim prim limits removed, so we had money barons, content barons, and land barons. Now we STILL have land barons, content barons, and money barons. Just because you people JUST noticed them doesn't mean that they haven't existed since before SL came out of beta. Some people put a lot of work into this game, and as a result ended up getting a lot of $L in return. That's just the way things work. No one just "gave" then the $1000's of $L they have (unless they bought them off Lindex with their inheritance money). They worked for it for a very long time. Sometimes spending a lot of their own $US to earn it, too. And SL isn't a pyramid scheme. Just because you JUST got here, doesn't mean that you can't get to the top. Back when I started, we had a fairly large stippend for basic accounts. We, however, didn't have the economy or the opportunities that you people have now. Now the newbies are coming in without stippends, but they are coming into an economy that's still booming, with a lot of opportunities to make lots of $L if they just look for it. In many ways, the new people coming to SL are much better off than the people who came in two yeas, or even a year ago, are.

Um, not really.

Someone who wants to create stuff and get it noticed on SL is either going to a) lose money by definition paying their tier, or b) go into business.

If they go into business then likely they will not be breaking even for a while because of high competition.

There's nothing wrong wath that, but to take your rule above literally, anyone in either of those positions has "screwed up priorities".

If everyone in SL was breaking even, LL wouldn't be getting any money at all.

HELLO EVERYBODY I WOULD LIKE EVERYTHING TO BE FREE AND NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR ANYTHING

what?!

what do you mean I can't have my cake and eat it too?!

I just don't want to have to pay for anything, ever. Why is that so much to ask?


Second Life isn't going to be fun anymore if I can't have the entire experience for free.

ya'all realize once LL starts putting out software that other people can run, the L$ will either have to be Federally regulated, or will go away, right?

It really rather baffles me to see so much hand wringing over what amounts to 70 cents USD. When people complain about not receiving 250L$ per week what I hear is "if you don't keep giving me 70 cents USD every week I won't play your damn game!" and to which my level of empathy amounts to "bye. Don't let the door hit you." Buy some damn L$ on the LindeX. Most people here probably wouldn't think twice about throwing 70 cents in the street (or spending that much on a candybar) so I simply can't comprehend why people go apoplectic at the thought of spending that much for something they entertain themselves with for several hours (if not dozens) every week. Welcome to the entitlement generation. Yet, somehow here in upside down backward land, a lot of you will probably think I'm the selfish one. *laughs*

You're right. Let's not let reason get in the way again.

The backhanded snub of help staff really isn't kind, Rasah. Just because people work to help out others doesn't mean they don't make money in SL. I know that Simone Stern helps new folks a lot. Can you think of any business advisor who'd say "Don't bother going to business school, those people don't know anything about business else they'd be running them instead of being teachers, instead contact your future competitors and ask them how to get started?"

(And by the way, I once did that with a particular project and the response I got was "I'll help you if you like, but I own most of the market so don't bother"



And some people put a lot of this work into this game and as a result ended up getting nothing in return.



I don't agree that this is true, but rather than getting into that debate, I'll simply point out that a capitalism can't work if everyone succeeds. And since most people define success in SL as "being able to do all you want without paying US$", that means that only the people who "fail" - or "don't want to work" - will be the people paying US$ in. Unfortunately those are the people supporting the economy and LL, and so it will be appeal to them that counts in the long run.

Because:

For general social/chat users:
a) text-based talkers are free;
b) if you don't have nice clothes, etc for your AV, all SL's extra graphics do is show up how crappy you look.
Some people might be happy to pay their way out, some won't.

For "power climber" users:
a) most of the "powerful" positions in SL, even ones that only have IC power in role-plays, depend on earning money (or having the skills that earn you money too);
b) therefore if such a user can't earn their own money there is no point in SL to them.

For "game player" users:
a) most games in SL are pay per play, most games elsewhere aren't;
b) most games in SL aren't as good as dedicated versions of the same games.

Where is the casual market?

I'm sorry this world is just an amusing distraction for me. I do enjoy it but it seems amateurish and not that good compared to WoW which I do pay for. I spend the stipend I get on tipping people or buying stuff so it goes straight back into the economy, but if I had to start pumping money in, I won't let the door hit me on the way out!

Do you enjoy being gloomy or is it just a habit? What compels you to get out of bed anymore?

Now, will this be before or after attachment culling is made reverse by the supreme court?

Business school teachers are used to be (or still are) business advisors, accountants, managers, etc. People who have had experience running businesses. You are right. I don't know how many in help staff have experiences with running business in SL. Although there are no doubt a few people who have made plenty of $L who are in the help areas to help out new people, and possibly to even share the wealth, I expect thare aren't too many of those though.




Guilty. Some people do it for fun or to just help out friends. Some people also don't need or want $L to be able to enjoy this game, either. Those who did want $L and failed, well, i's a learning experience I guess. Try harder?




Apart from my opinion that I think "most people define success in SL as" being able to do what they want in order to enjoy the game, whether that is having a lot of $L to buy whatever they want, or making a lot of friends, or providing some service that makes them well known, or inventing some new design/sconstruction/script, I agree?

Enabran, I'm not trying to be gloomy. There is a big difference between saying to yourself "I can succeed if I try hard enough", and on the other hand saying "Anyone can succeed if they try hard enough so if they don't succeed, it's their fault". Being motivated and trying your best are great things for an individual to do but they aren't a good basis for a society-wide policy.

In a capitalism it might be true that everyone has a chance to succeed but it is also true that if everyone actually does then the system breaks down - after all, if we want clean streets and empty dustbins, someone has to clean and empty them, and that person probably won't feel very successful. It's the same in SL - if people want to pay their tier with their in-world earnings and make a profit, then that US$ has to come in from somewhere. It may indeed be true that everyone has a chance to earn enough money within SL to achieve what they want but if everyone actually did, the LindeX would fall through the floor and the economy collapse because nobody would be buying L$.

Burger flippers are mocked a lot in RL but if it was not for them, Ray Croc would have to serve everyone their burger individually and that would make it hard for him to have many branches or for many people to eat the food they want to. So he knows they have to be paid, and the government has to make sure that they are.

In SL, the service we need is for people to buy L$ for US$, obviously "paying" them for that with money would be self-defeating, so instead we have to make sure they recieve adequate value and that's going to be tough. Because then you have to compete in the RL entertainment market to offer fun for those US$ and that's tricky when for US$20 they can get L$6600, which will still run out eventually, or Half-Life Episode 1 - and every mod created by that game's user community without paying any more. Now yes, of course, some people (like me) wouldn't buy that because they wouldn't enjoy Half-Life but you get the point - there might be some other game around that they would enjoy. Too many of SL's unique features are set up so that, if you can use them well, you can make money. That sounds like a good thing but it means that the people paying the money will be those who aren't getting anything from SL's unique features and thus will have the lowest level of attachment to the platform.