And while my attention is on this - having read a bit further - DID Eggy et. al get paid for their build?
Yes.
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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08-28-2006 13:13
Yes. _____________________
~Jennyfur~
http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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08-28-2006 13:17
That, then, would explain their lack of heartbreak.
P.S. You know, there are people who would do that for free. Submit their own designs and all, and you could choose. _____________________
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
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08-28-2006 13:28
That, then, would explain their lack of heartbreak. P.S. You know, there are people who would do that for free. Submit their own designs and all, and you could choose. What would be really cool would be for it to be a replica of the real-life venue. Maybe not as visually impressive to some as the 'thing' (sorry I can't think of a better term for it) that was built for this year - but then again, if the problem of overcrowding sims is connected with the lag... why have a hugely complex build with animations and scripting all over it? Surely that only makes it worse? I was more than happy to have a relay station at my little theatre - and to get 7351 traffic out of it (pity we don't get paid but there you go) but I still feel that things like mine should be in addition to an in-world build, not a replacement. As Coco said, further fragmentation cannot be good. I'd love to be highly involved with 2007 ... but from 3,500 miles away it is kinda difficult. Lewis _____________________
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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08-28-2006 13:43
That, then, would explain their lack of heartbreak. P.S. You know, there are people who would do that for free. Submit their own designs and all, and you could choose. We had an open call for submissions for the in-world build and while quite a few people said they were interested we received a whole two serious submissions. Since, it was technically a contest of sorts we offered monetary compensation. I did the same thing for the Design Showcase only I offered convention passes to the winners. _____________________
~Jennyfur~
http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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08-28-2006 13:49
We had an open call for submissions for the in-world build and while quite a few people said they were interested we received a whole two serious submissions. Since, it was technically a contest of sorts we offered monetary compensation. I did the same thing for the Design Showcase only I offered convention passes to the winners. Well, I wasn't aware of the submissions for the in-world bid. But then, I've been out of pocket for various lengths of time during the past year. Offering a monetary prize for it seems good to me. Was Eggy's one of these submissions, or did you decide neither entry would work, and go on to contract from someone else? coco _____________________
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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08-28-2006 13:58
Well, I wasn't aware of the submissions for the in-world bid. But then, I've been out of pocket for various lengths of time during the past year. Offering a monetary prize for it seems good to me. Was Eggy's one of these submissions, or did you decide neither entry would work, and go on to contract from someone else? coco We posted to the forums and used word of mouth to get information out to various builders most of which ended up being too busy to submit stuff even though they had originally expressed interest. Edit: Also we didn't find out until after we announced which 4 sims we had which impacted our decisions and the ability to do anything else given the sim restrictions. _____________________
~Jennyfur~
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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08-28-2006 14:01
Yeah, it would help to know which 4 sims they were before even trying to build something for them.
coco _____________________
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
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08-28-2006 14:47
For the record, perhaps if someone of the people complaining the loudest here volunteer for the IN WORLD portion of organization (we had exactly zero people volunteer this year who were not attending the RL Convention, and had to wrangle friends to host who weren't attending to host), it would be easier to keep things running smoothly. I does boggle my mind that people seem to expect us to have been available 24/7 during the events, in-world, to keep it running smoothly while dealing with some huge bug issues. That's just completely unrealistic, given that we had to run the RL side.
So feel free to step up to the plate and volunteer for next year, if you're not planning to attend in person. There are a lot of meetings, and it's a big time commitment, so please, only do so if you're serious. If you're serious, we'll welcome you with open arms. Regards, -Flip _____________________
Peregrine Salon: www.PeregrineSalon.com - my consulting company
Second Blogger: www.SecondBlogger.com - free, fully integrated Second Life blogging for all avatars! |
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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08-28-2006 14:47
Yeah, it would help to know which 4 sims they were before even trying to build something for them. coco Yah it really does, we assumed we had 4 flat square sims and while the ones we had are beautiful they are not ideal for building space. I was a bit worried that we wouldn't have any room for sponsor builds. In the end I was thankful for getting 15-18 submissions for the design showcase because we barely had room for it as is. I don't know what we would have done if we got 100. Aye well. _____________________
~Jennyfur~
http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique |
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
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08-28-2006 14:58
So feel free to step up to the plate and volunteer for next year, if you're not planning to attend in person. There are a lot of meetings, and it's a big time commitment, so please, only do so if you're serious. If you're serious, we'll welcome you with open arms. Assuming that I'm not attending in person (which I won't know until you announce the location and date), Second Life is still in existance, and I'm still playing, then you can count me in for something if you want it. Lewis _____________________
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Of Oz
Registered User
Join date: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 15
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08-28-2006 15:20
For the record, perhaps if someone of the people complaining the loudest here volunteer for the IN WORLD portion of organization (we had exactly zero people volunteer this year who were not attending the RL Convention, and had to wrangle friends to host who weren't attending to host), it would be easier to keep things running smoothly. I does boggle my mind that people seem to expect us to have been available 24/7 during the events, in-world, to keep it running smoothly while dealing with some huge bug issues. That's just completely unrealistic, given that we had to run the RL side. So feel free to step up to the plate and volunteer for next year, if you're not planning to attend in person. There are a lot of meetings, and it's a big time commitment, so please, only do so if you're serious. If you're serious, we'll welcome you with open arms. Regards, -Flip Hi Flip, not quite the way I saw it. Remember, a partner and I offered a working cinema, and also offered a single huge remote controlled 100m videoscreen, and offered any help you needed on customising and setting up the build. I even set one up, spanning the two corner hills of the actual sims, and demonstrated it to you. We didn't have the skills for the whole build so only offered bits. You gave the project to Eggy, and passed our free-of-charge offer to him. He didn't need us or our screen. When I saw what he built I realised why. In concept and creativity I thought it superb, and way beyond anything we could have offered. I was shocked when it didn't work, and almost set up a huge screen then and there, except that it would seem like sour grapes, and anyway I had no power to set the media streams on the land and make it work. If Eggy had asked me to help set up his build and monitor its performance I would have happily contributed. I can't help wondering what he feels about the way his wonderful work was ditched. But please don't say no-one would help. At least one offerer simply wasn't used. To be clear, I didn't offer as a non-technical "host" (I wasn't asked) but on the technical side I would have done anything assigned to me. If my screen had been used it would have had rigorous testing in advance , and been monitored like a hawk. I would have done the same for Eggy if I had realised he couldn't do it. It isn't possible this whole responsibility was in fact allocated to Eggy, and it was in fact he who let you down, but you are too polite to say so ? He was paid, you said, when none of you were ? What were his responsibilities ? I never saw him there on Saturday morning - setting streams - checking- as I would have expected. Who there was his representative ? |
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
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08-28-2006 15:20
Assuming that I'm not attending in person (which I won't know until you announce the location and date), Second Life is still in existance, and I'm still playing, then you can count me in for something if you want it. Awesome, it sounds like you're more than qualified after your experience this year! Thanks for stepping up to the plate.  _____________________
Peregrine Salon: www.PeregrineSalon.com - my consulting company
Second Blogger: www.SecondBlogger.com - free, fully integrated Second Life blogging for all avatars! |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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08-28-2006 15:41
For the record, perhaps if someone of the people complaining the loudest here volunteer for the IN WORLD portion of organization (we had exactly zero people volunteer this year who were not attending the RL Convention, and had to wrangle friends to host who weren't attending to host), it would be easier to keep things running smoothly. I does boggle my mind that people seem to expect us to have been available 24/7 during the events, in-world, to keep it running smoothly while dealing with some huge bug issues. That's just completely unrealistic, given that we had to run the RL side. So feel free to step up to the plate and volunteer for next year, if you're not planning to attend in person. There are a lot of meetings, and it's a big time commitment, so please, only do so if you're serious. If you're serious, we'll welcome you with open arms. Regards, -Flip Just a small point. There is a difference between "complaining" and "criticizing." Critiques can include both things you would like to hear and things you would not like to hear. I myself have an inordinately thick skin due to the fact that my entire life has been spent on a job putting my heart out there on my sleeve, and inviting its evisceration. Now, one can only do that - repeatedly - when one believes that most of the critique gathered is going to be well-intended and possibly helpful. So, in case you were referring to me as "someone of the people complaining the loudest here," understand that I am not "complaining" at all. Another point to bear in mind is people can critique something, or offer suggestions to make it better, or even warn of things which will make it worse, even though they haven't lifted a finger in the effort. Their critique, in fact, IS lifting a finger. Again, it goes back to what I do for a living. There are people who are paid to do just that - critique my work. Consultants function along the same lines. If you try to tell them they just don't understand because they haven't done the work, then you are wasting your money on them. Your job - when you get ready to step up to the plate and organize volunteers next year - will be figuring out how to best do that. Again, irl, there are people whose jobs are ONLY just that - to organize volunteers. Rather than just tossing the whole thing aside, get people who want to make the real-world SLCC sims a happening thing. What I'm saying is I think you should raise the in-world aspect of it to more importance, not less; and get people who will be doing that and only that, not trying to tack it on top of all the real world work they're having to do at the real-world conference. Because as I see it (and keep saying) if SLCC isn't a happening thing for inside SL, it will gradually be a less happening thing outside of it. People do like to get involved, and I think you will be able to find enough people to handle an official in-world SLCC site next year. coco _____________________
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Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
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08-28-2006 15:47
What I'm saying is I think you should raise the in-world aspect of it to more importance, not less; and get people who will be doing that and only that, not trying to tack it on top of all the real world work they're having to do at the real-world conference. Because as I see it (and keep saying) if SLCC isn't a happening thing for inside SL, it will gradually be a less happening thing outside of it. People do like to get involved, and I think you will be able to find enough people to handle an official in-world SLCC site next year. coco Some things, Coco, we agree on. |
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
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08-28-2006 15:55
Coco: I'm all for accepting criticism, and many points made here have been constructive and are valid; however, there is a line when it becomes complaining, when there is no offer of solutions or support. Almost everyone in the thread has provided valuable insight.
I'm simply trying to explain how we came to the decision.Thanks to Cyn Linden, I got a copy of the email received last Wednesday or Thursday concerning estates; I hope this shows that yes, there was a bug on estates that led to the decision, and yes, I have been telling the truth! Hi there, As many concierge customers will already be aware, we currently have a particularly nasty bug that is affecting some islands/estates. This problem began after a recent update that included changes to the backend infrstructure One of our developers, Steve, comments.. "Regarding the current bug: So, let me start off by assuring you that your concerns are our top priority right now. Several recent changes that we had to make in order to grow and improve Second Life have contributed to reduced simulator performance in non-obvious ways, and we appreciate your patience while we work through these. -Steve" So what are the symptoms.. The symptoms vary but what we are most often seeing is that 'Time Dilation' will dip, sometimes sharply whilst at the same time 'Images Time' will spike, often very high indeed. Usually this will last a couple of seconds, and repeat itself at fairly regular intervals. It does not seem to be related to how busy a region is. During our Friday company meeting, this issue was highlighted as our top priority by Philip himself. Several developers are working on it as there are likely to be several aspects to the problem. We are hoping to have a fix, not in this coming update, but the update after that. We know this is frustrating, and want nothing more than to see it solved ourselves. One additional comment from Steve.. "Regarding scripts on a region: We do know that our scripting system is not currently capable of running > 6000 scripts and maintain good performance. This not a built in limitation, just an observed point at which performance typically degrades. It is not the only factor; there are many many more. It is merely the most significant factor. We are currently working on a tool to help you identify the scripts running on your sim. It is a very high priority task, but we also have a lot of other high priority items in the queue, so that feature will not make it out this release. I do however expect it to make it out in the following release. -Steve" If more news comes through, we will post it or email it once more. Thank you all for your continued patience. Concierge Team This bug creates a nasty byproduct during sim crashes, as I explained before. Connecting to a server - be it streaming, database, any kind of server - is the most computationally expensive part of sending and receiving data. For example, with MySQL, there are two ways to connect: normal and persistent. In a normal connection, any time a web page is loaded, a connection is made to the database, the data is transferred and then closed. This is the default mode of operation, and for smaller outfits, is just fine. For larger sites, you want to establish a persistent connection; what this does is leaves several connections open and passes data back and forth, without the expensive opening and closing each page load. It's a similar situation for starting a video stream, as a handshaking process occurs to figure out how much stream to buffer, what bitrate to stream at, and so forth. If more than a few people are trying to connect at the same time, the server literally stalls out. The SLCC sims were set to 100 avatar limits each (IIRC) - if the sim had crashed with 100 avatars in it, who relogged at once, and tried to restart the video stream? That would have crashed our server, no doubt, in a similar fashion to when SL was down for a few days because everyone was trying to log in at once (v1.7). I hope that explains it - I've tried to keep this as un-tech-geeky as possible so people can understand. Ellie, I hope this is good enough for ya. Regards, -Flip _____________________
Peregrine Salon: www.PeregrineSalon.com - my consulting company
Second Blogger: www.SecondBlogger.com - free, fully integrated Second Life blogging for all avatars! |
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Phoenix Psaltery
Ninja Wizard
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,599
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08-28-2006 16:16
If you do not like my opinions on the matter, then you are free to exercise your right to the /mute button. Then again, seems like after reading the last dozen points or so, it seems I'm not the only person making the statement. Please stick to the facts, not belittlements and dismissals, and you might actually get somewhere. You know, I generally stay out of shit like this that is between two other residents, but in this case I feel compelled to point out that you have been one of the biggest sources of negative thought in regards to SLCC 2006 ever since discussions first began. I've decided to take the advice you gave Flipper and use it myself. Welcome to my ignore list. P2 _____________________
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Ellie Edo
Registered User
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,425
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08-28-2006 16:24
Thanks to Cyn Linden, I got a copy of the email received last Wednesday or Thursday concerning estates; I hope this shows that yes, there was a bug on estates that led to the decision, and yes, I have been telling the truth! This bug creates a nasty byproduct during sim crashes, as I explained before. Connecting to a server - be it streaming, database, any kind of server - is the most computationally expensive part of sending and receiving data. For example, with MySQL, there are two ways to connect: normal and persistent. In a normal connection, any time a web page is loaded, a connection is made to the database, the data is transferred and then closed. This is the default mode of operation, and for smaller outfits, is just fine. For larger sites, you want to establish a persistent connection; what this does is leaves several connections open and passes data back and forth, without the expensive opening and closing each page load. It's a similar situation for starting a video stream, as a handshaking process occurs to figure out how much stream to buffer, what bitrate to stream at, and so forth. If more than a few people are trying to connect at the same time, the server literally stalls out. The SLCC sims were set to 100 avatar limits each (IIRC) - if the sim had crashed with 100 avatars in it, who relogged at once, and tried to restart the video stream? That would have crashed our server, no doubt, in a similar fashion to when SL was down for a few days because everyone was trying to log in at once (v1.7). I hope that explains it - I've tried to keep this as un-tech-geeky as possible so people can understand. Ellie, I hope this is good enough for ya. Regards, -Flip Well, thankee, Flip, now thats a much better attempt to explain. I have to say that the quoted email seems irrelevant, as it doesn't mention crashing, or videostreams, and describes exactly the same situation I have been monitoring on ordinary mainland sims for the past fortnight. But the rest of it is getting more technical, and is interesting though not yet entirely convincing. I shall run it past my web/database-developing son when he gets back from Paris on Wednesday. OK - say I buy it for now. Does this not mean the death of any attempt to stream video to decent-sized audiences ? How many people in a sim is safe before we risk crashing the stream ? If this is real it is a very serious threat which needs fully understanding so that we can successfully negotiate round it in future events. One wonders how other people cope. Anyone streaming video who suddenly gets a mention in the news, for instance, will get a sudden leap in connections. Are their servers all collapsing ? And what does "stall" mean? Are you saying the stream servers will crash, and need manual restart ? It seems hard to believe anyone would create and sell such a system or such a protocol. I shall research this and come back before I decide whether I have been unreasonable. Sorry. |
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Nethermind Bliss
Raving Xenophile
Join date: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 79
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08-28-2006 17:42
So far what I have concluded from these posts its not so much the big huge things as much as the little things that pissed people off. And honestly this is too much planning for just two (2) people to cordinate before and during the event. Maybe you guys should accept defeat on this subject and bow out now and start recuirting some help for next years event. Seems that their is people in world that is willing to help out with in world issues and Im sure there are some people willing to deal with the Real world issues. While it's true that Jenn and Flip did the lion's share of the work (more than most of us really know) for both conventions, it wasn't (and could never be) a two person operation. There were probably 12 key organizers involved trying to handle details better suited for 25, and several extra amazingly helpful volunteers, but yes, we needed more. If anyone has worked in a volunteer environment, you'll know that it's quite difficult to get a dedicated, long term commitment from that many people without having some problems (often no one's fault, miscommunication and unforeseen changes). So, we definitely need more people helping next year, people who aren't worried about egos or getting anything out of it but the joy of seeing a successful event take place. With all the talent in SL, I think it can happen. We had a lot of people who took the lead in world last year that were in San Francisco this year. An in world coordinator, someone dedicated to only those things that happen in SL for the weekend, is critical. Unfortunately, we didn't have that. We took it on as a group. I thought I could help share those duties with the other things I was doing, as did Nexeus and Jeska, as did Flip and Jenn, etc. etc. In a nutshell, I think that the lack of clear and constant communication with the awesome (understaffed) SL hosts for the weekend was probably my fault. For the most part, they were volunteers who answered a plea of mine to help with running events in SL. So, if there's blame, pass it to me. I dropped the ball. I won't accept a portion of that responsibility next year unless it's ALL I do. I truly apologize for any gap in keeping SL residents as connected (and feeling as essential as they are to this event) as they should have been. It certainly wasn't on purpose. ~Nether _____________________
 "It will not bother me in the hour of death that I have been 'had for a sucker' by any number of imposters; but it would be a torment to know that one had refused even one person in need." ~CS Lewis |
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Of Oz
Registered User
Join date: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 15
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08-28-2006 17:48
I just had a long talk with Eggy Lippman, who did the build, since I originally had some slight involvement. He gave me permission to report our conversation here.
He didn't know the screens in his build never worked, and was a bit taken aback to learn of it. No-one ever contacted him, told about the decision to kill them, or asked his help or advice. The screens he erected were what he calls "placeholders" and he understood active screens would to be put behind them, so that the video was framed in the transparent portion, maintaining the style of the build. I myself saw this was never done Originally he had understood he would be given estate management powers, so that he could modify the land settings, but this appeared to be withdrawn, so he never got them. He does not know which people had these powers, but he didn't, and so it was quite impossible for him to set up the screens and test them, either on the day or in advance. He naturally knows nothing of any technical stream problems, but is clear that he never got his screens to actually show any test video, and never could have. It wasn't his responsibility, and he didn't have the power. There is clearly nothing more he could have done. The rest is history. |
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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08-28-2006 17:58
Umm, why do I have to find out through a third party that people are making a drama thread with my name all over it?
Why can't you people simply ask me directly whatever you want to know? Yes I got paid "real" money, $400, that I split 50-50 with moon. Is this such a big deal to you CoKo?  As for the screens not working, don't blame me. I didn't have permissions over the land, neither was I given a stream URL or requested in any way to make the screens "work". I provided FlipperFur with a build for SLCC, and placeholder screens where... whoever had permissions / was supposed to take care of the screens could do it. When I saw Flipper posting the QT url to the forums I assumed everything had been taken care of. Nobody who was there IMed me (or moon) about the screens or complained about it when I visited the SLCC build. I myself keep audio and video disabled for bandwidth concerns, so I couldn't know whether or not they worked. _____________________
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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08-28-2006 18:01
Is there some reason you are defensive about it, Eggyolk?
coco _____________________
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Sera Cela
A little bit of crazy
Join date: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 197
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08-28-2006 18:07
email received last Wednesday or Thursday concerning estates; I hope this shows that yes, there was a bug on estates that led to the decision, and yes, I have been telling the truth! This bug creates a nasty byproduct during sim crashes, as I explained before. Connecting to a server - be it streaming, database, any kind of server - is the most computationally expensive part of sending and receiving data. For example, with MySQL, there are two ways to connect: normal and ... Nothing in the e-mail that was sent to estate holders says anything about media settings. Infact it says nothing about how to prevent the issue at all. The real issue here is that if multiple people try to slam a webstream at the same time it will get hit hard. That's the real issue. The problem that I have, is that this problem is not prevented by having people open the stream outside of SL. People still connect. Infact if you have alot of people spread out, and watching the stream from elsewhere by giving out the url you can have much more then 120 people watching the stream. And there is no way that having 40 people connect all at once (a sim crash, if everyone logs back on immediatly and all hits play immediatly which is the worst case senario) is going to hurt the server more then having say 200 people watching at the same time. It's a simple pipeline issue. Thanks for quoting that e-mail though, now we know that not setting the streams had nothing to do with an inworld estate bug. |
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Clubside Granville
Registered Bonehead
Join date: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 478
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08-28-2006 18:14
Yes I got paid "real" money, $400, that I split 50-50 with moon. Is this such a big deal to you CoKo? As an SLCC sponsor I hope that was L$400, so it's a big deal to me. As the only sponsor who didn't seem to get invited into the land group for the in-world space sponsors were allotted, I understood and shrugged off my inability to provide a decent presence for my projects. There was a lot going on and I doubt FlipperPA and Jennyfur were getting enough support. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to provide feedback on the SLCC, and if that build price is accurate, I'm glad I waited. _____________________
Second Life Home Page Forums - slhomepage.com
Second Life Handbook - slhandbook.com Second Life Mainland - slmainland.com |
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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08-28-2006 18:19
Is there some reason you are defensive about it, Eggyolk? coco I didn't think my reaction was especially "defensive" or in any way inappropriate if you consider that I just found out that people are talking trash behind my back _____________________
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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08-28-2006 18:21
As an SLCC sponsor I hope that was L$400, so it's a big deal to me. If you know people who will work non-stop for weeks in exchange for L$400, tell them I want to hire them full-time! _____________________
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