Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

I think its interesting how LL/Jack is dealing with the situation, when he post again "happy" for how much reply they had from us (like we were complimenting him and LL).
On the meeting in world with some users/owners, how he talked with them like they were all kids and you know... "continue keeping the conversation construtive"!!!
Why not, LL is doing things in such a construtive way why we have to complain? Just because they wait for sell thousands of OS and full their pocket to then they say they are just for trees and water. Sure guys... We all bought them to put trees and water!!! They give us links for us to check why they create the OS. Well, they didnt complain when they were selling them by thousands. But thats what a greddy person companie do.
They sell a product and they wait for the profite of the product, they even gave more prims to use on OS so they could sell them better. Then, they start to have some "technical" problems and insted of fixing the problem that is not just their problem but every OS owner problem, they want to eliminate the problem.
But, what about all the money that went to their pocket already with the OS?
They money they make every month should be more then enought to cover the expensives. We pay their bills, we pay your RL house jack, ur car, etc... What you want more from us? A pool? A maison? We work RL and we put our RL money on this worl WE created. Or were LL who created SL world? Well, not my hair, or my clothes, or build the building on my sim. Halloween decorations like i have on my full sim to the hollyday, or the scripts to animate the ghosts there and the dances i have on my chim to dance on the partys, etc... LL made that? Other ppl made them, invested their time and many of them have their stores on OS.
So... less begging to LL and more rights!

P.S.- And you can believe we have rights. Switch & Bait is a crime.

yep it is all an imagination so from now on i will just put a box and imagine it is a fancy couch or chair lol.
well I have full sim and 2 OS and was using one of them as a place to build (sand box) but oh well guess i will be back to the skybox to build after i dump the OS... i dont think paying the extra 50 and stay with the BS rules they want us to follow will make any sense.

Would 10 pages send as powerful a message as 200?

The number of posts reflects the number of people who are very concerned.
Like me, most people posting on this topic don't have over 150 posts....we don't normally post because we don't normally feel so strongly about something. But we do NOW. We have a need to have our say.

So keep them coming, even if you are expressing the same point over and over again.

And ....furthermore. When was it so important to LL to make sure people knew exactly what they were getting into? How long did it take for LL to act as escrow to prevent transfer of sims scams? When it finally became a liability, they didnt disallow transfer, they put a system in to protect us. Why not do that for designated owners? Would only take the addition of another ticket system. This can't be so hard to do as we see them crop up for things like conceirge parties and the like.



To me the way to fix this whole stinkin mess is to state plain and simple that OS sims really didn't turn out the way we thought.... meaning..the stress on the grid was more than you thought. Yes we all know you should have known it but let's move forward.


I saw a cut and paste of harmony linden saying Mos Ainsley was a full prim with only 3750 allowed. I will accept Harmony as an honest person...always has been good to me. So let's just accept that. So it's possible then. LL what cost would you have to charge to replace all OS that owners WANTED to be used in ways you see as abusive with one of these Mos Ainsley Hybrids? Obviously you'd need more servers. For argument let's say the monthly to make you some profit would be 125 usd. I think many would accept that. Maybe with a prim increase to say 5000. Keep designated ownership with a policy in place to offer some consumer protections such as a ticket system.


Then for those OS owners using them indeed as light use, keep the pricing in place and institute a avi and script limit or some other technical solution for such.

So you will have three sim products. Let's term one Full Prim, one Mos Hybrid and one Light Use.

We know people are craving more area to live on and are willing to pay for it. We know that there are also many communities that grudgingly converted full sims to os to keep afloat so the possibility of letting them move them back to where they were and continue with their communities is attractive.


Now who will not like this? Those that using the OS in ways that they feel is light use but LL sees as abusive. What will the affect of moving high use sims to the Hybrid type mean to the OS users who just live there with one or two avis on occassion. Probably will help em out. So perhaps with that we wouldnt even need to disallow that.

Also consider allowing OS sims as they are used for light residential free to ownership by non estate owners. This would not be good for those who have sims like me but it's what the market seems craving for. And I don't think less of LL for providing a product they can provide themselves for their own profit. Just make a decision about what you want to be and do it. There will always be a rental market for communities on the private sims that are run well, beautiful and fairly priced. Perhaps working together Jack we can find a solution that not only suffices the need for LL to profit but also th need for many of us talented and successful at legitimate community building to thrive.


OK end ramble

My point is it would be more productive to agree and add new constructive comments. Bust as I said surely anyone feeling they need to comment should. I meant to anyway.

Again, accountability.

What's the incentive to have a premium account if the whole egg basket can be transferred over by the "middleman" full region owner?

Being a premium gives you the ability to own that land, and along with it the liability of recurring costs. Designated owners who can be billed completely undermines the different types of accounts, not to mention unnecessarily increasing the number of "moving parts" in the system.

It's the full region owner's burden to LL, not the renter.

or still reading all the replies?

This is really UNFAIR: I own an openspace SIM where I built a contemporary art gallery, I don't sell anything and the traffic is absolutely normal...why should I be penalized because some people misused their openspace SIMs? I only know FOR SURE that if the price I am paying now increases, I will leave the SIM.

I think you are agreeing with me? I was told that LL was billing designated owners and not only wouldn't i agree with that, I don't believe for a second it's happened.

The point about premium accounts however I dont understand. You don't have to be a premium account holder to be an estate owner. So if they did bill designated owners i suppose they wouldnt need to be either.

Now that's another suggestion however. Maybe make different account grades. If you have someone that wants an OS (after LL has clearly defined use levels), have an account level for them. Say X amount a month plus tier for the product they buy. Sell them to individuals.

My "Landlord" although really he is the estate owner - sent out a notecard to all his landowners explaining his reasons (I consider this a private communication and will therefore not publish it on a public forum) - apparently he has protested vigorously to the Lindens about the decision but has received no reply or offers of an alternative solution (surprise surprise) as a result he has decided to give up and seek alternative forms of "entertainment" (my quote not his)- which is of course what SL is all about - I understand his reasons fully - he has spent money and effort in building a community to be proud of and the Lindens have just cut it all off at the roots - their lack of communication has led him to this. It's a disappointment to me personally but I don't blame him in the slightest.

i am 2 year fan/resedent of second life, i have seen many changes, growth and pitfulls... and still i am here. i spend money here, i contribute creatively and mostly enjoy myself. BUT this is starting to get rediculas and i feel i must add my 2 cents worth. i pay enough to at least get that right.

I rent an open space sim for myself, i use it as a place to call home, and build. i dont have many prims or scripts allowances, and pay about what i would for the same amount of prims on other lands i have bought, but less "space". I thought i was getting a nice deal. but this would make it worthless to me. and i am NOT interested in paying more for less... i update regularly, be a good little user and now i crash more. building is getting to be impossible as i crash every few minutes when i try... so tell me what exactly am i paying so much for?? if this happens i will be giving up my land, and my premium account and just become a free user with a busting inventory of wasted hard earned money.

Discouraged user
kyra reiter

Wow.. Too bad you're getting burned by him walking away like that. Sorry.

I bought a openspace sim to live on, I have maybe 2 or 3 peopel on it at a time, mostly its just to hid away and relax when sl or rl get to be to much. I have a nice house on it with shoutcast and a dance floor that only I or 2 or3 of my closest rl / sl friends can use when we need to chill. I run my own shoutcast server and pay my tiers when due, I cant afford to own a full sim, I tried and buying them and the monthly teirs are outragegous, so i have this. If the price goes up then it will either mean not spending any lindens for inworld stuff or just leaving sl, Please dont chase your customer base away. I have been on sl for over 1 year and love it.. thank you

Keep current opensims at current prices and offer different bigger and lower prim sims onto the market.....give us choice and we will show you what we can afford...if your in profit enjoy and leave us alone....

If i buy a can of beans and the taste is wrong i dont expect to pay more to have the taste made better....nor do i expect to pay more for a sim because others are having issues....you did say anyone abusing the use of their sims wont receive help with any issues.....welll dont offer help continue selling watch us crash and lag.....
Just stop milking us/ this is for profits only.......if this is performance issues you work on it...you make a mint as it it

Oh and whats going to happen to us when 45000 prim sims appear and wipe the market?
that will be our next burden....lag....

I realize many of you contributing to this forum do not appreciate the impact that discontinuing the educational discount will have on SL. Not only will this not be good for me, for my students or for LL, it will not be good for anyone. I have brought in quite a number of new residents, quite a few who stay to purchase your goods, live on your lands, and enjoy SL. On the other hand, educational funding is continuously cut. I am required to beg in a sense for money. I managed to get funded for one year at a time for a full sim (Biome) and an OS sim (Biome II). I am very upset that LL is looking at discontinuing the educational discount. I don't understand the reasoning behind this. It only brings in customers and gives a high level of credibility to SL and to LL.

Education has not been addressed much in the forum or the comments in the blog. This is a very big issue that seems to be put on the back burner. This will likely bring about more negative publicity for LL and SL in general than any other issue this has caused. Many, many of the media articles about SL have been directly connected to education in SL. If these publications decide to print this, administrators (who actually read this stuff I learned when they started sending me links) will be skeptical about supporting a company with such arbitrary decisions.

A 67% increase in any product I'm paying for would upset me. Purchasing a product at a time that the company selling has doubts about the viability of it upsets me.

I pay VAT on both the purchase price and the tier, go do the sums and work out how financially rewarding that's likely to be for me.

Your only interest is mainland, I have interests in estate, mainland and my own customers.

The problem with prim limits on OS is it has to still be reasonable for the original intended use. With Havok 4, the amount of linked prims in physical objects doubled. What that means is your movable vehicles/boats/whatever can now have double the amount of prims in the object than the Havok 1 engine allowed.

Limiting the prim count on an OS to 500 as previously suggested is beyond unreasonable for the purposes of supporting both land cosmetics & physical objects, unless of course it's open water.

One glove doesn't fit all.

The old prim allowance was good enough for the traditional Linden trees, plants & other foliage. With the increased creativity just within the last year alone, we now have decorative landscaping options from various merchants available that make using the Linden library tacky to say the least.

With the overwhelming increase of alternative landscaping object usage comes a higher overall prim usage, so it makes sense for LL to increase the prim allowance on OS to follow suit with the capabilities that other areas of the grid enjoy.

I see no conspiracy theory in that.

Now it's explained that the servers currently can't support the load being put on them, this as stated before, is the result of the lack of QA. Obviously there needs to be some fat trimmed off somewhere, or adjustments needed in the data centers where it may not be as profitable, but would serve the community's best interest in regards to performance.

Either way, suggesting an increase of prims on OS regions is some sort of scandal is far fetched to say the least. Sure LL has faulted, but this is plain nonsense.

Breeze Herrey Says:
October 30th, 2008 at 6:19 AM

Wish they would’ve made this decisions way before they sold 1000s of Open Spaces. Wonder if they plan to reimburse the monies for setups fees.


this is an outrage, they charged their tenants the set up fee, now they plane to boot the tenant dump the sim and reclaim the set up fee, these are the barons that started it and now they aim to cash in on it to

Missing Jack did make a single comment on the blog YAY! Making a sum total of 2 comments over 3-4 days now. It was simply a handjob though

"2 Jack Linden Says:

October 30th, 2008 at 6:18 AM
@Qie: Amidst many excellent responses we’ve had, yours might be the most constructive I’ve seen yet! As I think I have alluded to in the post, we do recognise that there are at least two clear usage models at play here, and I agree that we need to look at how we recognise that in whatever we do. We’re discussing that along with other feedback at the moment. Good post, good ideas."

He is backpedalling still, at least he didnt use the term "abuse" in this post. Some slight progress for customers and now he is using the term "alluded". Trying to show Lindens are listening, not answering but simply trying to cover their ass.

The best idea would have been pick out the serious questions that occuured and actually start giving some answers.

ie Can people who bought in last 30 days get a refund? thats a simple yes/no
Has the Concierge Desk been giving customers information different to what Missing Jack says. (Thats the serious one, contributors here have been saying that)

Lots of straight forward questions that Lindens are deliberately avoiding answering.

I am sure all the competing Virtual Worlds out there will be closely following this drama and will use it as a case study of what not to do. As missing Jack is flipping burgers , least he will know his work here will serve as a warning model for others. Communicate and treat your customers with respect.

He has made two posts in total, saying absolutely nothing. He has made the classic business 101 mistake of issuing an initial edict (all tough) and has no where to move to without losing face for both himself and the company. He has failed to post or advise the forum of discussions he held with concerned members inworld or that he posted a new blog. How are we all valuable when he deiberately withholds information and refuses to answer questions? To diffuse the situation, he is doing everything completely wrong.

To finish, Qie's post was excellent and intelligent but so have been 100's in the forum over the past few days. Missing jack needs everyone to "look forward now" and "move on to work together", hence his commet. The very last thing he wants is to explain how such a decison was reached in the first place and all the skeletons emerging in the Linden's household. To stress again, if Linden staff have been giving conflicting information that could cause financial loss to customers, then TOS or no TOS they are in a very vunerable situation. Hence the handjobs, flattering everyone.

That happened for a little while in beta, but I don't think it was carried through to the main grid.

The only mainland I own is the free 512. Ask Chris. He has done his homework.

First of all, I want to say I am not a rich person and like most others here I have used what little discretionary income I have to pay for land because I believe in the concept behind Second Life and needed to have the land to help promote that in my industry. But because I do not run a business in Second Life, trying to save what I can on tier is important so that I can continue my efforts.

I have had a regular sim for about a year and just recently purchased an OS sim because I had other land spread out all over the mainland and realized I could consolidate it all and locate it next to my private sim, plus this move saved me considerable money on tier. Now, with this increase, my savings on tier is gone and now the land investment is gone because all I can do at this point is abandon the OS - no one will pay for it with this increase.

I chose an OS sim because the purpose for which I use this land is lower prim and has very few visitors. I knew I would not exceed the prim limit and agree with everyone else that I was led to believe that was the only restriction. I just checked and right now my OS sim has about 900+ prims, and I would be surprised if it got more than 1 or two visitors a day if even that. So according to the original explanation by LL, those of us like myself who have not overloaded the open sims are going to be penalized for those who did. I could have understood a price increase due to a general need to increase prices, even though I would not have been happy about it, but not an overall increase due to the failure for people to properly use their open sims.

I guess I cannot understand why LL didn't consider doing what so many other providers of online services do: sell a package with specific limits on storage and then charge an incremental increase for any usage over those limits. Internet radio broadcasting services and web host provides have this type of payment plan. They don't tell you that you are bad for going over your limit - they know people will - so they just have an increasing scale of fees established to handle any usage over the limit of the package. Not sure why this couldn't be done here. Particularly since it seems to be a well established and accepted practice on the Internet. There has to be some way to measure over use - whether it is prims or as in internet radio, "listener" hours.

As for me, I am concerned like all the others that I will have to abandon my OS, lose my purchase price, and further consolidate everything on my regular sim when I had hoped to slowly continue to develop the builds and community associated with my sim.

I am aresident on an on 1/4 open space sim and adhere to my prim limit whit never more than one visitor. Why is this a cause for a 66% price increase?

Please explain.

Per month i pay L$ 120,000. Tier for one full sim and one open space.
Just for hobby and make friends happy to enjoy the sims for their pleasure, without making profit.
I will not accept an increase of $ 50 per month for extra profit of the Lindens without an added up value for me ( all of us) as their customer(s).

If plans come true: I'll leave SL in total and never come back. Also i will recommend my friends to do the same.

Thank you Lindens for trustment in you and my losses of investments in SL.

Do the Lindens know what such an increase means in this economical increasing bad times all over the world at the moment ???? I don't think so !!!

I wish them good luck with doing this kind of bad business.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, logins have been disabled due to, as LL states, a higher than usual load. Could it be that the heavy abuse we've (as has been claimed) been involved in finally has caught up with us?