Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

Depending on what kind of trees you use, the prims can add up fast.

How about one tree made up of 3750 prims?

Simply put this is what Linden Lab done:

1. Sold huge number of sims for "light use" 3750 prims knowing exactly what the 3750 prims will be used for.
2. They making impossible - with building competition sims and raising OS prices - to all those many sim owners to use them now the way they have used them.
3. They getting back all those abandoned sim servers for free so they can sell them again.

Now I call that a win-win method... for them. They own Second Life after all they can play God 24/7... and they actually do. They can do whatever they want.

I am perplexed as there may be people who agree with extortion. The charges made by owners of islands are nothing more than a service, not just sell the land and the third charge, we support an in Portuguese, something that Linden does. We have a web site www.allenbr.com with tutorials to use and communicated, we are available for owners 14 hours per day within Second Life and do not like to generalize things, service providers such as foxes, and what they do now with the people is nothing less and nothing more than extortion.

I know that if Jack Linden opted for the change he must have a good reason but we need help, do not throw money in the trash invest in something called Linden Lab that is a responsible company and I do not believe they will leave us in hand now that difficult moment, what we ask is:

1 -) conversion of the 4OPENSPACE TO 1 FULL ... FREE

2 -) With 3 Openspaces or less, return of investment or aid to buy a complete 4 for conversion.

3 -) choice of date of the new tier of the island that will be formed with more than 30 days after the creation of it.

My logic is simple (maybe too much) I call it the quarter rule.
1/4 prims
1/4 cpu-age
1/4 price

This logic makes perfect sense, we pay 1/4 for getting a quarter, if OSR was intended for empty spaces, they should be like 10% or 1%, 25% of a sim means we shall use 25%, that's what we paid for. (btw rural zones of sl are a cool idea).

Also, why not just tax abusers? Why punish all of us? This logic is not a good modeling of retributive justice. Simply tax the high script zones, and leave at that, maybe have a lag-o-meter to test it.

And whether LL intends this not to be a penalty it is in the words of Gandhi
"The attacked one does not care why you harmed him, nor the child care why you harmed his parent"

Jack,

I strongly believe Linden Lab should to better understand the needs of its users when it comes to OS.

For a lot of people that are into SL having a place to call 'home' is an important aspect of the overall experience SL has to offer.

Until the arrival of OS there were two choices for those people: (1) buying a piece of mainland or (2) buying a private island.

Issue with buying mainland is the lack of control of happens around your parcel. I owned a corner plot the size of more than 1/3 of a sims right next to a Linden protected ocean. I used this as a home and it was sheer heaven. Although a very expensive dream in terms of tier fees. A great place until someone else decided to build a monstrous building which was totally out of character for the surrounding area right onto the ocean plot next to me. This spoiled the whole place completely. There I was having spent a huge amount of money and paying a lot each month in tier fees with nothing to do but to wave good bye to my dream.

I did consider buying a private island before I went for the piece of mainland. I was intrigued by the fact there would be no neighbor and his thought of a dream to worry about. But decided I could not justify the monthly tier fee.

As you can imagine OS is the solution for me. The important benefits of a parcel with no worries of what is going to happen around it at a cost that is affordable to a private user.

The sim I created is mainly beach, hills and trees and I enjoy it every day I log in. And so do all my friends who visit the place.

Take the option of OS away from me (or raise the monthly cost by 66 % which is practically doing the same) and where do I go ?

Since I've started SL I've probably spent an average of 1,500 to 2,000 US $ per year on this experience all included. I like to think that this is an amount of money significant enough to be heard and listened to.

In my view the monthly tier fee of private island is too high for private usage and a mainland parcel doesn't offer an experience that satisfies a sophisticated private user demanding a place he or she can create according to their dreams.

The offer of OS filled this gap and this is one of the reasons they are so popular.

Feel free to visit my place and you will understand.


Kind regards and good luck with this. For the benefit of all of us and the future success of your company I hope you are making the choice that is right.


Herwig

I am one person who uses designated owner status and I am not apologizing for it. I clearly explain what that is. See any of my posts on SLX about it. Designated owner status (I might add explained to me by Jack Linden himself when I discussed VAT with him) is a viable way to allow trustworthy people to use their OS. The way it was used by me, allowing resale and transfer at any time, is owning in my opinion. How is it different than anyone "owning" their private estate full prim plot they could resell? Actually selling private estate land as many of you used to for insane amounts to recoup your purchase of sim (yes I know this really isn't possible anymore b/c of the OS product) is the same thing. It's not owning at all is it?


Designated ownership status is a useful thing. It allows people to upload and download their own terrain files. It allows them to add their friends as EM and take them off. And most of all it gives them conceirge rights. When I put sims on the grid for people and made them designated owner, I told them to use conceirge to discuss their performance issues with LL themselves. Many did. And I know for a fact many got support from LL via live chat as designated owners for use of their OS as homes. But we won't go into again the fact that LL knew full well what was going on.


Owning in SL is fallacy wherever you buy land. I for one am a land dealer that spends time explaining this before I take money from anyone. I know others don't. Again the viewer mod where people know where they are standing might help. But sadly I bet it won't for many. At some point people need to educate themselves before they hit the pay button. Taking designated ownership status away from us who use it effectively, honestly and productively is wrong.

My furry friends in SL were using OSRs to fund very nicely and beautifully made full sims, by renting out OSRs, now nobody will pay the new price, and their continent is ruined, so yes we are de facto being punished for what others did.

I was seriously considering buying a couple of openspaces this summer to add on to my sim. Sure glad I decided not to! Eliminating education discounts for Openspaces too? What's next? Will you reduce or eliminate education discounts on other property?

University budgets are tight in general and especially tight these days. It makes it hard to plan and support my SL research projects when Linden prices and policies can change so much and so fast without much notice.

Linden Lab - if you discourage faculty and students from experimenting with SL you are hurting some of your biggest advocates and we will look elsewhere!

Mostly for waterspace, though my neighbor and I who rent it also put up stuff fun for eveyrone to do. We both have houses in skyboxes, but big deal - 80 prims is 80 prims whether it's a bunch of trees or rectangles. We mod the waterways and the park when the halloween maze is down, keeping it ever new and interesting to visit. When the halloween maze is up, we simply need space for it to sit and a few hundred prims for walls. Again, big deal. Our payments give us large spaces to work in and pay for the group's fun as well as our own. Pay particular attention to that last line - my neighbor and I are paying good money to LL so other people can have a good time.

And I'll destroy it all, outright, before I give in to this Crack dealer level of behavior on the part of LL!

This is all not only disappointing, but frustratingly irritating as well. In SL I got a chance to have the island that I never could have in RL. But guess what? The landlord, scared about the new increases told me I have 3 days to pack it all in. RL tears nearly came to my eyes as this was my home away from it all. 50% of my island was water...the rest? trees, trees, trees.....I doubt that I am the only person in this boat and here are a couple of things that were on my mind:

1.. So now that you are realizing that your Open Spaces have what you perceive to be "more" value you want to charge more money for them...

2.. What logic are you using to explain why you are charging MORE money for the same decreased performance? Are you changing anything about the open spaces? Or will they remain the same? I wouldn't DARE do anything foolish like try to have a club or anything that would think about dragging the performance down as it is only 1/4 of the performance anyway.

3.. What about the loyal people? Broken trust is so hard to get back and I guarantee you that you may have forgotten, but SL would be nothing without the people.

4. I was saving up to buy an island of my own but you know what? I have come to the realization that I don't need it anyway. With the RL economy the way it is, I am more than happy to take my earned lindens and put it into the contests in my club so it goes straight to the people...

So, I have now decided that I will not put myself in the position to be thrown off land because I cannot afford an out of the blue price increase. Screw it....But I really hope LL does the right thing because this just isn't it.

ive been here now for a year,...great world lots to explore,,but i think,,thats going to be away , many light sims owners are not going to pay that,,ive got one too, for all residents,s o that they can explore my island, but its to much..for less, so,,,bye bye island and many many many more.....this is NOT a solution..

I fully agree the many are paying the price for the few. Hate to break it to you LL but I would bet that there are quite a few loyal SL'ers that will leave. Not all of us can afford to fork out extra money....in case you missed the THOUSANDS of reports on the crash of the US stock market.

Congratulations. You have discovered the most efficient and fastest way of diminishing your customer base and the income from that base while keeping Second Life operating.

Initiating a policy of price increase for tiers during a global recession certainly does cause results. In a world where people are losing their jobs, income, and homes at rates not seen since the great depression is it really wise to accentuate how much of an unnecessary expense Second Life is? Do you really wish to create more economic hardship on your users whose income has decreased over the last 8 years?

Reading the justification of the raise in tiers on open sims brings forth the question of why a maximum of 3,750 prims was set if that limit was never intended to be reached. As posted in the blog, can you imagine an open sim with 3,750 trees? The complaint about the usage of the open sims beyond your expectations of a minimal waterway really is not logical. Given that if it isn't logical it probably isn't true, and therefore it would seem other more greed-based reasons are probable.

As I am sure you are aware, Second life is often an emulation of Real life. The real world economics carry directly into Second life. if you have been paying attention you have probably noticed many estate owners abandoning their regions and estates. In conversations with them I've noted their difficulties in keeping even economically during a time when land owners are abandoning their land, leaving the tier payments directly to the estate owners. The choice to increase tiers on the open sims was the proverbial straw to break the camel's back. Did you really want to choose this result?

You may view the tier increase as being justified and have your reasons. Did you think this choice to raise tier rates through to a positive win/win result? I invite you to consider how Lindens now shows to others by observing their reactions. Your choice shows to users as greedy, self-focused and inconsiderate, especially considering the economic crisis at hand. Is that perception really what you had in mind as your goal? Is the abandonment of investment in Second Life by users really what you intended?

Although it is too late for those who have already sold their lindens and pulled out of Second Life, a reversal of your choice to raise tiers may save you some income and could save a portion of a positive image for you.

I wish you the best of luck with your challenge.
Jeffe

Hi All, Please forgive this one cross-posting of mine! I didn't realize blog replies are limited to 150! I promise I won't cross post again, but I just feel compelled to get this one in-thread here! :} The following is verbatim of my post here - http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/10/29/update-regarding-the-openspaces-announcement/post , #133, with the addition of an intended reply (as well as the source of my discovery of the apparent 150 reply limit :/):

The following reads as a fact sheet but is simply a suggestion for consideration, as I am unfamiliar with the technical aspects off any such proposed implementations. In specifying the details, it's been my experience that it really isn't so much the prim and/or agent loads, but the scripting loads, that affects the regional performance the most - and I used the 22ms number from a previous conversation I had with a very knowledgeable person. I, on the other hand, am not informed but simply guessing! Obviously and of course, different people will have different experiences. I based the tiered setup fees (I agree, let's call it what it really is: since we don't "own" any tangible property, or indefinite use of services, by "purchasing" an island simulator, the cost of a region is in reality a setup fee.), as well as the tiered monthly maintenance fees, on the straightforward concept of quantity discounting. With the placement constraints I simply wanted to offer a justification for the value added oriented price margin steps, as well an example of possible market niche fulfillment strategies. Some technical considerations would be to automatically allow for load balancing on clustered servers? I know just barely enough about that to make that sound good, and yet be very dangerous unfortunately! :} So I don't know if that's a realistic/cost effective possibility while maintaining cpu segregation(? ^.o), nor how that would impinge upon Qie's suggestion of "hardwiring" estates (http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/10/29/update-regarding-the-openspaces-announcement/ post #2). Then again, maybe it's time to consider an alternative method anyway, since from what I've been reading that, technicalities aside, co-hosted regions are in fact affected by the overall server load even with simulator isolation. On the enforcement side of the equation, wouldn't it be possible to set soft and hard threshold flags? Cross the soft threshold and the region/estate owner gets notified, cross a hard threshold and the region gets rebooted? Over-threshold induced reboots can further trip flags to recommend regional assets/possible use-level upgrade (say one to three in a month?), a "take action" notice (say four to six reboots within a month?), and "regional shutdown until action taken" notices? With that, why involve staff in processing an up-/down-level use request? It may play a bit of havoc with revenue forecasting, but offering automated services would go a long ways towards off-seting that, I would (in the strictest sense I'm afraid) imagine. For instance, if I knew I wanted to host a three-day event, and am concerned about regional capacities, I'd be happy to pay for a weeks worth of up-level time, rather forego making such a payment and make do as best I could. I would think that restricting level changes to weekly segments, as well as possibly a yearly limit of no-cost changes, would help limit capricious use of such an ability. Offering an option to down-level my seem counter-productive, but if I was forced some reason to consider abandoning or selling out of a region, but instead had the option available to retain ownership at a reduced monthly fee - albeit, without a setup fee refund of any kind, I would be extremely grateful for such an option. And even though that would mean one less simulator in general circulation, it would make it much easier for me re-utilize the region to a fuller extent down the road. In the meantime Linden Lab would still has a revenue stream from a now under-utilized region - allowing for more overhead to maintain performance during load spikes, would need to provide an additional region to someone who would've bought mine in the current scenario and would have the distinct chance of regaining an up-level customer. All of which would help everyone's SL-experiences, and anyone involved in marketing understands the value of a positive word-of-mouth reputation!

1) "Full-use" region
Prims: 15000
Script loads: 22ms
Recommended agent limit: 100
Setup fee: $1000 US
Linden Lab's monthly maintenance fee: $295 US
Placement constraints: as existing for standard sims
Market niche: for those owners who intended to fully utilize sim capacities

2) "Heavy-use" region
Prims: 11250
Script loads: 16ms
Recommended agent limit: 75
Setup fee: $775 US
Linden Lab's monthly maintenance fee: $225 US
Placement constraints: as existing for standard sims
Market Niche: for those owners who wish to offer similar capacity densities as possible with a full sim, but wish to incorporate a modicum of "open space"
area(s) within the region.

3) "Moderate-use" region
Prims: 7500
Script loads: 12ms
Recommended agent limit: 40
Setup fee: $550 US
Linden Lab's monthly maintenance fee: $165 US
Placement constraints: as existing for standard sims, plus the same ownership of at least one "Full-use" or "Heavy-use" sim required
Market Niche: for those owners who wish to offer fairly equitable use of capacity and ambiance

4) "Light-use" region
Prims: 3750
Script loads: 8ms
Recommended agent limit: 20
Setup fee: $300 US
Linden Lab's monthly maintenance fee: $85 US
Placement constraints: as existing for standard sims, plus the ownership of at least one "Full-use" sim required
Market Niche: for those owners who are more concerned with the aesthetics of a region, rather than it's capacity

5) "Ambient-use" region
Prims: 1875
Script loads: 4ms
Recommended agent limit: 10
Linden Lab's monthly maintenance fee: $45 US
Setup fee: $175 US
Placement constraints: as existing for standard sims, plus must be placed next to any "up-level" region of the same ownership
Market Niche: strictly to enhance the ambiance of surrounding regions


Just some pixels to contemplate! ^.^



Intended replies:
@ Nagash Demina ( http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/10/29/update-regarding-the-openspaces-announcement/post #142):
As of January 1st, 2009, we will have tiered fee structure if the recently announced openspace fee increases are implemented, which is what we're focusing in on, rather than the here and now. :}

@ Felix Oxide (http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/10/29/update-regarding-the-openspaces-announcement/ post #144):
Like i said, different people will have different experiences! :} Good point Felix, unfortunately I don't deal with mainland sales at all, and since my offerings focus heavily on ambiance and a strictly enforced PG-oriented Covenant, I'm not sure that mainland parcels are my competition, in particular. Having said that, in order to offer up a fully integrating solution, I agree with you 100% <shrugs> I'm just not the right person to offer up a suggestion on that. As far as the agent/avatar limits are concerned, as with the scripting ms parameters suggested, my intention was simply to get the ball in play, not necessarily in the net. I've never seen more than eight (nine with myself) on one of my openspaces, and it was just fine, so I threw out the numbers proffered with a scale in mind from least to most. I certainly won't be upset to see those thresholds massaged from my suggestions! Now, with the "Heavy-use" region? I could certainly use that, and, unless I'm missing something, I don't really see where the pricing is inconsistent/more favorable towards such a product? Don't want to say too much without giving away the farm, as far as in the way I do business, but i will say that because I don't such a region I offer a 25% Object Bonus on my full sim(s), yet my tier is still competitively priced (on the higher end), to most other private island offerings. If there was such a product I could offer prim counts and tiers more in keeping with market mainstreams, while offering the product/services my clientele seems to seek.

PS: I saw a number of words that I left out on the original post that I didn't include here, but I do want to make one clarification; where I mention "...forecasting, but offering automated services would...," it should read something to the effect of "forecasting, but offering automated services - possibly via the Region/Estate utility, would..."

HMMMM... Interesting. Open Space Sims..3750 Prims allowed...65000 sq mtrs... purchase price set... tier set...no covenant...no restrictions...my own private estate!!!!!!

Thats what i purchased.. and now i am being told by Linden " oopse....SORRY... ummm
really dont want u to use any prims.. and we r going to increase the set tier."

Why give a set prim allottment if you didnt want us to use them... sounds like you need to HONOR current residents and Open Sim owners... and rethink your restrictions and prim allottment for future buyers.

SOO>>>>>>>> 3750 Prims, 65000 sq mtrs....... THAT IS WHAT WE BOUGHT
AND.. we r using the prims because you sold them to us .... a 50$ increase for tier
is not going to make uis stop using the prims.
This is like selling a Toyota... brand new.. then saying oopse we need you to pay 5000$ US
more or.. we r taking the engine... LOL

Seriously... it is your mistake if you THOUGHT we would all just NOT USE THE PRIMS.... and just sleep in a 1 PRIM Hut on 65000 sq meters , with 10 sq meters of land and all open water
GIMME A BREAK

Sorry but i cannot afford any increase , and it doesnt even make sense... and if you go this route you will be taking your own mistake and passing it on to peeps like us who have enjoyed the usage of our sims.. and have clearly been only using the prims U sold to us

BUT...earlier in this thread (pg 19)



Quoted for posterity.

The bottom line here, for me, is simply that a lot of people DID abuse OSs -- and not only because they built clubs and malls and screwed up performance for the 15 other sims sharing resources with them. They abused them by giving the impression to thousands of people that, in "owning" an OS, they could "have their own sim" on which there were no covenants or restrictions in use.


Sadly, and though it affects me badly, I am actually almost (not quite, but ALMOST) feeling GLAD that the Lindens are taking steps that will get rid of all of these abuses, by making tons of people dump "their" OS sims. I am just sorry to see so many people hurt by it.

I am just a simple little avi. I don't own land, I don't have businesses, I don't have an SL job. What I do have is a lovely rental on an island that is private and secluded because my landlord is respecting the rules and not overloading his sim. I never experience lag. I can just barely see my neighbors on either side because the houses are spaced so far apart. I am able to afford my beautiful beachfront cottage in part because of the current OpenSpace pricing policy.

If I read the message correctly, this is the exact reason why OpenSpace was created to begin with, i.e to provide privacy and spaciousness. Now, because some land owners have abused that policy, I may lose my home. How is that fair?

Why can't the abusers be addressed and assessed and the ones who are following the rules be left alone? It is obvious that LL can "see" who is abusing the policy. Why does everyone have to suffer because a few choose to put self interest above the interests of the SL community as a whole?

@Jack Linden applauding the response from Qie on the blog

With more than 3000 responses on the blog and in this forum it has become hard to see if things aren't already said. But I still want to tell you what bothers me about this whole matter and ask you some things.

Although I agree with you that Qie's response is a constructive one and has some good points, I partially agree with the temporary partial grandfathering that Qie proposes. Partially because I still think that 125USD p/month is way too much for a lot of talented people that found their way to open space sims, but have to leave because it becomes too expensive. Did you take time to look around in some open space regions lately? You would have been surprised by what some people are capable of to make out of a complete region. And some of them are owned by people doing it as a hobby, not a business with large financial resources.

Grandfathered monthly fee is nothing new to you Jack. It's been there for the estate owners that have been in SL from the beginning. One of them made it's first million USD in SL even. I am not really sure Jack, are those estate owners still paying grandfathered monthly fees? Will they continue to do so?

A quote from you Jack:

"By and large we have worked hard to keep prices static for long periods, and when we have had cause to increase prices in the past, we allowed grandfathered monthly fees to continue because we value the time and energy those people had put in. Nearly 18 months on and that grandfathered pricing is still in place for many island owners."
(http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/09/details-on-the-q2-2008-island-price-change/ )

So the residents that came after 2006 didn't put time and value in their (open space) regions and thus in SL I wonder? They are not entitled to grandfathered monthly fee now, as LL did before?

I have read some interesting things about what Zee Linden and you said about grandfathered monthly fees in the past.

http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/02/02/changes-to-the-class-3-upgrade-offer/

http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/11/14/private-island-pricing-committments/

http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/10/09/putting-an-end-to-pricing-rumors/

http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/09/details-on-the-q2-2008-island-price-change/

I agree with Qie that prices fluctuate in time and LL has to adapt changes to survive. If the new pricing will be effective for open space regions bought after today, I understand and adapt. What I don't understand is why some people in SL seem to be treated different than others. If there is a good reason for that, than please enlighten me on that Jack.

My suggestion is that the newcomers (2006+) get the same right on grandfathered monthly fee as others had before when major price changes became effective.

Reconsider grandfathering the monthly fees for everybody that owns open space regions in this matter Jack, maybe LL will win some trust back again.

http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1776 has a vote rate of 2 votes per minute.

I have no problems with LL enforcing appropriate use of openspace sims. This is a completely valid issue. However if this is REALLY the issue, then enforcement is the solution. But to claim that it is necessary to drastically increase charges to all to handle abuses from a few is such an inappropriate reaction that it is both indefensible and unbelievable. I know its been said before, but to offer a great deal to bring in thousands of customers and then changing the terms after everyone is entrenched appears to be nothing but a cheap bait-and-switch scam.
If LL's strategy in this is to increase income, LL could face quite a surprise: Clients will abandon massively their OS, will leave SL at all or just buy a smaller parcel on a full-prim sim. But of course: Next is an increase on all others sims, and even mainland.

LL is acting like bad politicians: A few residents abuse the 'light-use' terms and the whole group should suffer.

I suggest we all look at what competition has to offer: Next year Nurien will start offering 3D SL-like products in the USA. LL: You're not alone anymore; competition is around the corner and they will strike hard!

I suggest you (LL) review your policies!

To me it was good to see the Lindens at the meeting however why in the heck has not anything been resolved? & why was there not a blog entry about the meeting?????

Jack,

You keep saying that you're listening and that various constructive ideas are under consideration.

When do you expect to post some real answers?

Firelight

Yes, I too am concerned about the slashing of the educational discount as Kyle mentions. Taking into consideration how our budgets have been hit in our real life institutions /libraries and now our virtual spaces...
For many organisations, the plans to purchase educational/not-for-profit islands and open space combinations have already been submitted for their new budget year beginning in May, June or July 2009.
And on another note, what about the 'public good' and virtual world accessibility of the underserved members of our real world communities who had found such joy in the development of open space sims and the support of virtual communities surpassing services available to them in RL.
I see the educational/not-for-profit community as a true promotional/orientation force that has taken on the task of recruiting institutions from around the world as we trek to conferences and speaking engagements.
I do hope you will reconsider,
HVX Silverstar / Bernadette Daly Swanson
UC Davis

Also in the meeting you were saying some people were getting refunds why don't you have something official so that we can see and read this and then we know more of our options there is still nothing official up of our options.