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Introducing T Linden. What would you do to improve Premium subscriptions?

elvis Woodget
Registered User
Join date: 2 Feb 2007
Posts: 5
11-24-2008 03:04
i think the first of all you have do is

ALLOW ONLY PREMIUM ACCOUNTS TO SET ANY CONTENT FOR SALE !

it will stop all the nice texture rippers and content stealers


more i think we do not need


Regards
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-24-2008 03:46
From: Hern Worsley
The set up process is in itself a barrier also to commit to pay for 1 year in advance is not for everyone if this is what you mean by annually?
As you say, there are so many ways that buying in to mainland requires a commitment.

You pay a substantial amount up front for the land, instead of letting your landlord take that risk ... and your landlord is paying in even bigger tier chunks than mainland owners.

And of course you have to pay tier or lose that money you paid up front. Just like your landlord does.

If you pay monthly, it costs you about 50c after stipend over tier.

If you pay in 3 month intervals, you save about 20c a month against tier.

So, worst case, you're paying an extra 50c for that first 512 square meters... which will cost you maybe $15-$20 in a decent location.

The setup process? Most of that is giving Linden Labs payment details they'll need anyway to bill you. Getting rid of premium wouldn't make that go away.
From: someone
Estate land under a good landowner is the simplest solution for whatever my needs may be and i have a lot more choice all highly appealing factors and little commitment required.
Indeed. And getting rid of premium wouldn't change that.
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

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Hern Worsley
Registered User
Join date: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 122
11-24-2008 03:53
From: Argent Stonecutter
As you say, there are so many ways that buying in to mainland requires a commitment.

You pay a substantial amount up front for the land, instead of letting your landlord take that risk ... and your landlord is paying in even bigger tier chunks than mainland owners.

And of course you have to pay tier or lose that money you paid up front. Just like your landlord does.

If you pay monthly, it costs you about 50c after stipend over tier.

If you pay in 3 month intervals, you save about 20c a month against tier.

So, worst case, you're paying an extra 50c for that first 512 square meters... which will cost you maybe $15-$20 in a decent location.

The setup process? Most of that is giving Linden Labs payment details they'll need anyway to bill you. Getting rid of premium wouldn't make that go away.
Indeed. And getting rid of premium wouldn't change that.


- any possible losses from your initial purchase price or + any profit admittedly..

Also getting rid of premium ofcourse wont change how estates are run but it will make a huge difference to the mainland market. I for one could at least consider getting a parcel on mainland which currently i dont even see as an option.
I go back to my original point premium is a barrier between estate and mainland it only makes economic sense to stick to one or the other.Either all your land is on estates or its all on mainland. Thats not to say many people may well have land on both SIM types but to do so its costing them more than it need be.
Xe Oh
Registered User
Join date: 31 May 2007
Posts: 2
11-24-2008 04:01
From: elvis Woodget
i think the first of all you have do is

ALLOW ONLY PREMIUM ACCOUNTS TO SET ANY CONTENT FOR SALE !

it will stop all the nice texture rippers and content stealers


more i think we do not need


Regards



This is a ridiculous comment! This assumes that all Non-Premium content makers are con-artists, which is far from the truth.

This post is equivalent to the recent comments made by the CEO's of Ford, GM and Chrysler before the American congress last week.

It is the equivalent of trying to hang on to the status quo, and not allow competition from small business.

I sure hope I don't see in SL what I have just witnessed in 1st Life.

Xe
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-24-2008 04:30
From: Hern Worsley
Also getting rid of premium ofcourse wont change how estates are run but it will make a huge difference to the mainland market. I for one could at least consider getting a parcel on mainland which currently i dont even see as an option.
Why not?

Let's say Linden Labs gets rid of premium, and allows you to just pony up your credit card and buy land. So instead of ponying up $10.00 for a month's premium plus between $15.00 and $20.00 for the land and getting $4.50 back in Linden dollars, you pony up $5.00 in tier and $15.00 to $20.00 for the first 512 square meters. You still have to provide your credit card info and do everything else required to become a premium, you just save 50c over the first month.

If you figure you're going to hold the land for more than a month, you pay in 3 month installments, and actually save money.

So why is having to be a premium a barrier?
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Christos Atlantis
Registered User
Join date: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 20
Mr T
11-24-2008 04:48
Again welcome to the crazy SL T, thanks for reading most of our post, but as you can see this forum is getting out of hand, maybe its time to close it before the flaming starts fires :)
Felix Oxide
Registered User
Join date: 6 Oct 2006
Posts: 655
11-24-2008 04:49
I would love more group slots like everyone else, but i'm afraid the stability of SL would become further degraded if those were increased. With 25 groups i am lucky if I can even initiate a group chat or stay in one half the time.

Someone earlier suggested some sort of social networking "popularity contest" sort of addition for premiums. That would not be much of an incentive for me either. I think premium accounts have outlived their usefulness the same as lifetime basic accounts did.
Emerson Sweetwater
Creative Explorer
Join date: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 12
Double-Primmed Land
11-24-2008 04:59
From: June Trefoil
If Mainland 'ownership' will still be tied having a Premium account, then aspects of Mainland do need to be improved. The ability to get a small lot with no tier was a big incentive for me to upgrade to Premium.


Mainland as it is now would be hardly worth upgrading to premium to buy. But with the insecurity of private estates (let's face it, LL will around to the end of SL), I can understand why some people (myself included) would buy mainland plots.

The point of opening the whole mainland to all accounts is to increase responsible land ownership. This is because some PIOF would still be required and adfarming is beginning to face policing. If anyone could own main land it would mean more income for LL.

Some people upgraded to premium just buy mainland. Not all of these would necessarily stay premium once mainland ownership was opened to all. What may cause them to stay Premium is the ability to buy mainland with 'something extra'.

From: June Trefoil
If not buying up land, then maybe LL could rework some lots before putting them up for auction. I've seen whole or very large parts of regions or irregularly shaped lots up for auction. Would it work better to modify some of these lots into 1024's with some surrounding protection and auction them individually? I'd guess that if more of this type of Mainland was offered, then the model is no longer new, and possibly the auction prices wouldn't be so high.


I take it that you were refering to my point about the double-primmed Nauitlus Estate. Yes the auction price for these was high. I strongly suspect it was due to the double-primming of these lots and not necesarily the surrounding infrastructure. You are most right in saying however that the price of these auctions may fall if more of this type of land was available.

The common garden variety mainland we have now is more of a 'freeform' type of space. Anything can be done with it. Creating 'doubled-primmed' land requires sacrificing some server resources usually through infrastructure and protected spaces in the sim. Both types can exist simultaneously in any sim with the right construction.

LL has flooded the mainland with 'freeform' land, but no one currently really wants it. To gradually recycle it in proprotion to the number of premium land holders interested in it would eventually increase 'double-primmed' land with out losing its sale value.

If everyone could own 'freeform' mainland, the market price for normal 'freeform' land would stay stable with the basic accounts soaking some of it up. Provided that no new 'freeform' mainland is made available premium accounts could then begin to sell their 'freeform' land and replace it with 'double-primmed' land.

Eventually the result would be a better mainland and more revenue for LL. Everyone wins.
Raul Crimson
Surprised resident
Join date: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 3
Premium accounts
11-24-2008 05:10
I totally support the ideas Vint Falken published in her blogpost: http://www.vintfalken.com/second-life-they-come-go/

From: someone
1 Visitor Statistics (Part 1) For every piece of land I own, I want to see visitor statistics. How many avatar visits/day, how many are unique, how long do they stay, which objects did they interact with on my land, how many purchases did they make, … . Let’s call it google analytics for SL.
2 Object Statistics (Part 2) I want to be able to tag ‘tracking code’ to an object. Let’s say 30 month/premium user. I get a lovely web overview of how many different avatars own the object, how many are rezzed inworld, on how many different sims, and how many copies in total are out there.
3 IM’s don’t get capped. Also, get me a web interface on secondlife.com where I can log into, see an overview of the IM’s I have not responded to yet, and can reply to them. (Reply email to IM delivered to mailbox to often fails.)
4 Access to ‘import and export tools’ from different 3D software tools officially supported & maintained by Linden Lab. These things end up in a seperate ‘builders’ inventory.
5 The guarantee that on Virtual Death / Suicide I am allowed to donate my complete inventory - be it no-trans items or not -
to another avatar.
Without that avatar having to pay succession rights, duh! ;)
6 Account Babysitters I want to be able to allow at least 1, preferably 2 or 3 other people to log into my account, if I for any RL reason can not. They can access my inventory & make L$ payments, but can not convert my L$ to real money, nor can they add to my L$ balance with RL Balance. How would this work? I would allow them access to my account from Web Interface, putting their avatar names in as ‘babysitters’. This allows them to login using their Avatar Name + Password, after which they can choose to go into ‘babysit mode’ and use my avatar. Using ‘corporate avatars’ shared amongst a few co-workers would not be violating ToS anymore. That and somebody I trust could watch over my account & necessary payments if I ever decide to go sailing for two months.
7 More than 25 Groups! I think we mentioned this already ‘nough times?
8 Communications in (one off) my country’s official language(s) You charge us our local tax, I would assume important communications like tier raises, downtime warnings, … are brought to me in a language I flawlessly understand.
9 Automated Sales Data Access API hooks + key to automatically process sales data, and use it for whatever we see fit.
10 A Vote! For important issues - eg. openspaces - it can not be a bad thing to actually consult your ‘residents’. Polls can contain simple yes/no answers, or a bit more options. Supplied on the login screen when a premium resident logs in. Every premium account has one vote, and LL promises to actually take into account the results of those ‘referendums’.
Emerson Sweetwater
Creative Explorer
Join date: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 12
On the subject of stipends and tier...
11-24-2008 05:28
First and foremost: Upgrade the free tier to 1024m. 1024m is only US$8 under the current tier structure. That is less than the premium account costs (US$9.99). Any unused tier as a percentage of US$8 can be converted to L$ and reimbursed as stipend.

My suggestions for features of the premium account:

1)Convert any unused tier at any level back to L$ as a stipend. This can be done on a weekly basis to take advantage of the exchange rates.

2)Allow for premium accounts to have tier in 1024m increments right up to a full sim.

3)Bring back the idea of first land, but make it non-transfer (only can be abandoned and recycled for new premium account holders). For laughs, make it double-primmed too!

4)Develop some double-primmed plots that can only be owned by premium account holders.

To encourage land use in general and the upgrading of accounts, basic accounts would only be able to own land under the current mainland tier structure with none of the unused tier reimbursed as stipend.
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-24-2008 05:33
Emerson, and others... Linden Labs isn't going to give you something of value for nothing.

Let's say you had a choice between keeping your grandfathered premium account at whatever stipend it has, or getting one with no stipend but twice the bonus tier. Which way would you go?
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
11-24-2008 05:35
From: Emerson Sweetwater
LL has flooded the mainland with 'freeform' land, but no one currently really wants it. To gradually recycle it in proprotion to the number of premium land holders interested in it would eventually increase 'double-primmed' land with out losing its sale value.

If everyone could own 'freeform' mainland, the market price for normal 'freeform' land would stay stable with the basic accounts soaking some of it up. Provided that no new 'freeform' mainland is made available premium accounts could then begin to sell their 'freeform' land and replace it with 'double-primmed' land.

Eventually the result would be a better mainland and more revenue for LL. Everyone wins.
I'm all in favor of anything that improves the Mainland. And having additional zoned and/or double-primmed land in the available mix should help. And it may be fine to open up Mainland ownership to non-Premium members ("may be" because I'm not sure how much account "stickiness" is due to Premium subscriptions, so it could hurt LL in ways I don't know about).

But if the suggestion is to make the "special" (double-primmed, etc) Mainland be available only to Premiums, and the "freeform" variety available to all... I think that's probably wrong. In sims with cooperating landowners, the flexibility of freeform land beats double-primmed stuff hands-down--except for the tier costs.

And that brings me to something I just have to wonder: How long will LL continue to subsidize Bay City and Nautilus City and future double-primmed landowners on the backs of the rest of the Mainland? That is: how long before tier corresponds to prims available, not parcel size?

Buyers of this "super-premium" Mainland paid dearly for that tier savings per-prim, but consider how Nautilus City would look on a balance sheet: there's 30 sims-worth of server capacity humming away, supported by 4 sims worth of tier plus the risk-free cost of money for the total auction proceeds. At current interest rates, that cashflow compared to standard Mainland goes negative in a matter of months. It's a massive ongoing margin-loser for LL--and regular Mainland tier and Estate fees make up the difference.

(Hmmm. A lot of folks commented that the OpenSpace price hike came suspiciously close to the Nautilus City opening, suggesting that it was all a scheme to pull folks back to the Mainland. But now that I think about it, perhaps it was really Zee waking up to the financial quagmire of Nautilus City.)
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-24-2008 05:38
From: Qie Niangao
Buyers of this "super-premium" Mainland paid dearly for that tier savings per-prim, but consider how Nautilus City would look on a balance sheet: there's 30 sims-worth of server capacity humming away,
Not that many, most of the unrented sims are openspaces.
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Siann Beck
Beauty & Braiiiiinsss!
Join date: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 140
11-24-2008 05:38
A number of people have mentioned the ability to create mega- and micro-prims, and I think that would be great. One of the major barriers to wide-scale implementation of mega-prims is their potential for griefing. I know there has been considerable discussion of how to mitigate this, and perhaps wide-scale implementation will happen some day, but in the interim, making it a 1-year premium perq (i.e., it doesn't kick in until the first anniversary) would greatly reduce if not eliminate the griefing potential, while allowing loyal Residents considerably greater creative freedom.
_____________________
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Emerson Sweetwater
Creative Explorer
Join date: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 12
11-24-2008 05:46
From: Qie Niangao
But if the suggestion is to make the "special" (double-primmed, etc) Mainland be available only to Premiums, and the "freeform" variety available to all... I think that's probably wrong. In sims with cooperating landowners, the flexibility of freeform land beats double-primmed stuff hands-down--except for the tier costs.

And that brings me to something I just have to wonder: How long will LL continue to subsidize Bay City and Nautilus City and future double-primmed landowners on the backs of the rest of the Mainland? That is: how long before tier corresponds to prims available, not parcel size?


I agree with your points made here. I am hoping that SL will move away from being rendered from the ground up and move onto being rendered from the Avatar's perspective. If that happens, then less hardware will be required for 'sims' since sims would only be terrain oriented databases; the hardware savings being balanced out with computations of what is relative to the AV. Then prim limits wouldn't really count...
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-24-2008 05:55
From: Emerson Sweetwater
I agree with your points made here. I am hoping that SL will move away from being rendered from the ground up and move onto being rendered from the Avatar's perspective.
Sims *are* only rendered from the avatar's perspective.
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
11-24-2008 06:02
From: Argent Stonecutter
Not that many, most of the unrented sims are openspaces.
:D Uh huh. And many with far too many prims to fit in a new OpenSpace. Maybe that's why they're so intent on force-fitting Homesteads four to a server. ;)
Emerson Sweetwater
Creative Explorer
Join date: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 12
11-24-2008 06:05
From: Argent Stonecutter
Emerson, and others... Linden Labs isn't going to give you something of value for nothing.

Let's say you had a choice between keeping your grandfathered premium account at whatever stipend it has, or getting one with no stipend but twice the bonus tier. Which way would you go?


This post is about improving premium subscriptions. Currently the best grandfathered account there is only gives 500L and 512m of free tier. After that you are stuck the current mainland tier structure with massive steps. If you dont use it, you lose half of what you are paying for.

My suggestions for improvement include increments of 1024m per level of tier. Added to that, any unused tier would be refunded weekly as stipend. This way someone can select their tier level and at worst, end up with a pocket full of Linden if they dont use it. Does your grandfathered account give you that option?

I know for sure which way I would rather go.
Felix Oxide
Registered User
Join date: 6 Oct 2006
Posts: 655
11-24-2008 06:09
From: Emerson Sweetwater
This post is about improving premium subscriptions. Currently the best grandfathered account there is only gives 500L and 512m of free tier. After that you are stuck the current mainland tier structure with massive steps. If you dont use it, you lose half of what you are paying for.

My suggestions for improvement include increments of 1024m per level of tier. Added to that, any unused tier would be refunded weekly as stipend. This way someone can select their tier level and at worst, end up with a pocket full of Linden if they dont use it. Does your grandfathered account give you that option?

I know for sure which way I would rather go.
You can rent out your extra tier or rent extra tier to soften the impact of tiering up.
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
11-24-2008 06:12
From: elvis Woodget
i think the first of all you have do is

ALLOW ONLY PREMIUM ACCOUNTS TO SET ANY CONTENT FOR SALE !

it will stop all the nice texture rippers and content stealers
A very poorly thought out and ineffective action.

The biggest thing this will stop is that it will stop the majority of potential new content creators from ever bothering to try to create content in SL in the first place. The vast majority of new content creators use their initial sales to defray their expenses in SL, before they are willing to commit to paying for a membership. Would YOU pay $72 USD up front for the ability to maybe earn 50 cents per item that you might sell? A noob would have to sell a lot of T-shirts and dresses to make up for that initial investment of their actual in-hand cash.

And many of the top name content creators out there are still Basic, and always have been, because they don't choose to live on the Mainland.

Your proposal will eliminate a majority of the new talent from ever bothering to create in SL, as well as forcing a lot of major content creators to either upgrade or abandon SL.

We have seen time and time again that if a thief thinks he can make lots of money by ripping people off, he won't hesitate to create loads of Premium Accounts with false ID, use them as needed, and then discard them like a used "Saturday Night Special" after the gun has been used to commit a murder. That is what killed the First Land program.

Texture rippers don't need to sell anything to cause harm, or to profit from their theft. as long as they can pass the stolen goods on to one of their other alts. You won't slow them down at all.
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Emerson Sweetwater
Creative Explorer
Join date: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 12
11-24-2008 06:25
From: Argent Stonecutter
Sims *are* only rendered from the avatar's perspective.

Only the client renders from the avatar's persective, not the sim. The sim is rendered from the ground up for AVs within that sim. Everything in that sim relys on that server to calculate the movements of the AVs and how they interact with objects. That is why there is a prim limit for each sim.

Rendering from the AV's perpective on the server's side would be carrying out the client's current job on a host server (independant of any sim) with the host server only recieving a streamlined amount of information from independant environmental and object databases. The end calculations would rendered by the host server and viewed by the client. This would create seamless 'sim-crossings' and virtually unlimited prims for any parcel of land.

Currently this would be too laggy to do with current internet speeds and would require some serious reworking of the entire SL grid. Not that the grid needs needs some serious reworking...
Emerson Sweetwater
Creative Explorer
Join date: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 12
11-24-2008 06:28
From: Felix Oxide
You can rent out your extra tier or rent extra tier to soften the impact of tiering up.


This is like renting your extra tier without the work. That sounds like nice a perk of premium membership...
Brett Finsbury
Registered User
Join date: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 20
11-24-2008 06:47
11-21-2008, 08:03 PM #49
Franz MacMoragh
Registered User


Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6 Ok I arent a premium account holder and this is why...

As a UK citizen it is vitrually impossible to do without leading to extornitate costs, I'd have VAT to pay, foriegn exchange costs etc etc.

While I know LL can do little about the VAT problem with out taking over the EU they could allow me to pay in my local currency, after all you do have an office in Brighton and staff, so set a UK price for a premium account and I will sign up, simple.

When Linden labs moved their billing dept to the UK, they created a mess for American accounts.
Ever so often because the billing comes from the UK, my bank locks down my account because Second life is flagged as an offshore gaming site and i have to call the fraud dept. to unlock my account. Annoying and embaressing when you discover that is has happened "Again" when you are paying for a purchase at a RL store. Because the billing is coming from another country, even though it is American owned, I get a international transaction fee. The more times that i pay for lindens, tier or a premium account I get that fee. All of my accounts are premium and paying for their spot on the grid. so all these fee's each month add up like a VAT.
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-24-2008 07:13
From: Emerson Sweetwater
This post is about improving premium subscriptions. Currently the best grandfathered account there is only gives 500L and 512m of free tier. After that you are stuck the current mainland tier structure with massive steps. If you dont use it, you lose half of what you are paying for.
Indeed. Reducing the Giant Leaps in tier would be a big improvement, and doing something about that would be a big improvement to premium accounts. I wasn't talking about that, though, I was talking specifically about your suggestion of doubling the free tier and having them pay you for unused tier. That is the *only* thing I'm referring to here.

What I'm trying to get at, though, is that when they talk about improvements, they're not necessarily talking about *free* improvements. And improvements that potentially cost money (and free tier and refunds for tier in Lindens would cost money) are less likely to be free.

What if the options were... setting aside the *other* improvements... something like:

*1* Grandfather your existing account.
*2* Pay $14.95 a month for an account just like the one you have now, but with 1024 square meters of premium bonus.
*3* Pay $9.95 a month, with 1024 square meters of premium bonus but no stipend.

Would you really pick #2 or #3?
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-24-2008 07:14
From: Emerson Sweetwater
Only the client renders from the avatar's persective, not the sim. The sim is rendered from the ground up for AVs within that sim.
The sim itself doesn't render anything at all.
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
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