Introducing T Linden. What would you do to improve Premium subscriptions?

LL can't lose money through the Linden Exchange in any way. The exchange in place, as it is now, is a transfer system from resident to resident. If you read the wording on the site, when you "sell" your L$, the exchange service will transfer your L$ to someone paying the cash, and vice-versa when you buy. So, for Linden Lab, I don't think the Linden Dollar can be considered a true financial expense at all. It's purely a resident rescource of fictional trade value. This concept is supported in the TOS:::

..... Meaning. There will NEVER truly be a way to cash out of SL, because LL will NEVER foot the bill. Even now, that's the way it works. (^_^)

What will happen (doom's day scenario) is that all residents attempting to sell their L$ in order to cash out, will cause a dramatic shift in the value. Eventually to the point where it will virtually require an infinite amount of L$ to equal a U.S. Dollar. At that time, the policy will still stand that the Linden Dollar is simply a limited license and it would probably take some sort of court order to demand a refund or something of the like. (^_^)

In that matter... Premium member stipends are the only real "new" or "purchased" monies in the system and LL could be doling out all they want with little to no loss. In the end, the only reason to keep stipends above Lindex market value, is to keep the market value up where it's at and maintain the superficial benefit of being able to "buy" your L$ at a lower cost. Which.... Happens to accrue transfer fees, by the way. (^_^)y

Like it!



Ditto! Some od this might even feed back by making a premium more likely to buy in some of the themed builds.



Amen to that. Bay Citizens *want* an infohub, and some included the knowledge that "Hub Island" (now Hau Koda) was going up there in their purchase decisions.

Agree with everything except the regions with access only to premiums. That is just the kind of elitism we don't want in SL. It will just piss off the basic accounts (quite rightly) and IMO it will be a wasteland as most clubs and shops want to be where they can get maximum customer exposure.

1.A reasonable request will be a space for premium member to host their website. it don't need to be very large space, just 50MB.

2.more flexible tier(by every 512m).

3.option to own openspace without getting a sim.

The concept of increasing the ability to hold, each year, by 512 has a subtle and illuminating error. The capacity of a dollar's worth of hardware will double on a basis that is thought to be regular. I wouldn't guarantee that the acreage would reasonably double, each year, but having a simulator hosted for U$10/mo is in a predictable future.

I think the big problem, is that Island Holders can offer better customer support, at a lower price, than Linden Labs is ready to. Mentors generally provide good support, to Island Holders equally with us Basic Accounts.

I only asked the Documentation Team, that Basics be able to read the forums, rather than opening it to unidentified users, who haven't been an unusual amount of trouble anyways.

We keep seeing a desire for LLTeleportAgent(), but there seems to be a fear of Griefing. LLTeleportAgent should send the agent where the Parcel Owner desires, as long as the ToS are respected, and shouldn't ever be usable by us basics. Giving the Parcel Owner more authority, would probably bring a few back from the Islands.

SL is an environment adjustable by property holders, according to the IRC or MMORPG desired. To hold property should be generally desireable.

Arawn


That actually makes a bit of sense. It's a benefit, for membership while the system remains adventurous.
Do I understand that Sim Owners aren't allowed to increase in 512 increments? Each customer costs a single point of contact, and you want that ownership to increase at whatever increments float their boats.

Would love that myself, but I understand "some" of why we are not seeing it. Basically:

1. Network. They are using a DB that has scaling issues, or at least, isn't well adapted to scaling when used without "real" expertise, which means, basically, its hard to get it right. Not impossible, just a lot harder than ones designed to make scaling "easy".

2. Data transfer. This covers several things:

-- A. Object updates. Server side, and *as far as I know*, there is no "this is a static object" flag, which can be turned on/off by the server, to tell the client that it "needs" information on it. Why is that an issue? Well, imagine that all you are doing is walking through a city, with no animations, no animated textures, no sounds, and no editing, etc., with 50 static buildings. There is "no" reason why you need that data constantly updated **at all**, save than the way the system seems to work is like a web page load. The client says, "I am at X,Y,Z, facing Q.", and the server sends, "Here is all the stuff you need to know to show this:", followed by megs of object data, most of which it, presumably, already has, or should.

-- B. Texture updates. Same problem as A, since you are dealing with an attribute of the objects. Only, this is "worse". If an object isn't visible or "in range", the server either throws out the data, or "downgrades" to a simpler, less data intensive, copy (i.e., it down samples to a blurry version, which contains less data, so takes up less bandwidth). The moment you turn around again, it has to then "update" back to the one you had 30 seconds earlier, before you faced away from it in the first place.

This is why everything stays grey so long some times. Think about it. An entire "region" in a game like EQ2 or WoW takes, on my system, probably 3 minutes to download when doing a patch, and its got "less" geometry in it than some SL sims. But, once its "on" your local machine, it stays there. With SL, the client gets a list of stuff it "needs", then starts requesting the data for those things, only it **never finishes** getting all 3 minutes worth of data before the new update takes place, and it has to throw out any "incomplete" data, update any textures you are not looking directly at, or moved closer to, etc., *before* if can go back of re-downloading the more distant stuff, which it was still in the middle of doing when the update hit. In an empty sim, with no lag on the systems, no script, medium prim use, and no physics, or other things to lag the server end, this happens fast enough you don't notice the problem. Add in anything that makes the server itself work harder, requires more updates to multiple AVs, or otherwise strains the systems, and you get not only the "update" delays, you start getting "delivery" delays along with it.


-- C. Physics, scripts, animated textures, AVs, etc. All these cause added resource use, and delays in "delivery" of the needed data, because the data isn't "static" in any real sense, even when it should be. You are only being "updated" with what is "visible" to you, so, the server has to figure out, for you, and every one else, how much you can "see", and thus what data needs to get to you. Much of that data is transitory, and it only gets worse when you can see adjacent sims, since now you are not just trying to get data from where "you" are, but transferring all that data between the sim you are looking into, and the sim you are in, before it gets sent on to you. In other words, now "your" sim isn't just having to send its updates to you, someone else's sim is sending updates to your sim, and that is being shuffled into the data stream as well. Anything that moves, changes, flashes, blinks, particle effects, changes transparency or texture, or just occludes an AV for a moment, causes more data to get dumped into this.

Now, much of this is likely to, one hopes, get better once their inter-sim communications are faster, just as it will tend to improve everything else that goes pear shape under high use right now. I have been told by some people that they are working on some way to do "some" of the calculation of what "should be" visible client side too, probably by marking anything not being edited, physical, or otherwise likely to change (i.e., the static buildings in my example above) as actually static, and thus making it possible for the client to display them without being "updated" on them all the time, unless that state changes. They would be also, imho, better off "keeping" textures longer and having the client not even ask for them, if it a) has them already, b) has the best quality one for the object in question, and c) its still "in range" of your AV, regardless of whether its in front of you, or behind you. Imho, updating to a "downgraded" version, just because you moved a bit away, or turned around for a few moments, ***adds*** more data overhead than just not asking for the texture at all, if its not one that is going to change. Oh, and it also seriously messes up some scultped prims, when they "need" the higher res texture to "look right", an example being some sculpted gears you can get, which actually turn from 8 tooth versions to 5, just because the "smaller" texture used for "distant" viewing doesn't have enough "data" to shape them correctly.

Mind, I could be wrong about how some of this stuff works. But.. Ironically, some of the "few" sort of protections that keep people from easily, for example, copybotting every object in an entire sim by just setting their draw distance to the maximum, **actually** cause most of the problems with ruthed AVs, greyed buildings, physics lag, etc. They are trying to feed the entire sim to use like a web page, and an entire sim can contain, as I said, enough data that it takes "my" 3m/s connection 3-4 minutes to download when "patching" one region in a game that "doesn't" attempt to update this stuff in real time. A lot of improvement is going to have to come from figuring out how to keep more stuff on our machines, risking the easier copying that cause, but, reducing the mass of data that has to be shoved at us every 30-40 seconds to make it work.

So, yeah. Would love stability. But, even if they could manage to get the clients in better shape, and get the network working more stable, it won't fix the lag issues, because those are cause by "neither" the client, nor the network, nor, unless they plan to run every sim as a multi-core application at some point, instead of one individual cores, something that can be easily corrected on the servers. Its just too much data, going too many places, too often. And, fixing it is going to require either a rethink of "how" that data gets from point A to point B, compromises "some" people are not going to like at all, and/or a jump in processor power "on both the client and server end", which half the people that use SL won't pay for now, never mind when something good enough finally becomes available.

But, this is just my understanding of the situation, from things I have heard described about the system, and what that leads me to suspect is causing some of the hiccups we get. I think there where some design decisions from the start that where.. not so good, and some of the problem is simply that its damn hard, at this point, to "fix" those things, without making the old clients *completely* incompatible with new updates. Not like.. You can still use 1.19, but some new stuff doesn't work, but like.. if you don't have 1.3, you can't even log in. It might come to that at some point, just because some things may not be "fixable" without actually making problems temporarily worse, while in transition. Like.. Making the servers lag even more, by sending the "old" way to old clients, while trying to "streamline" to new ones. Sometimes the trade off between "fix it" and "make it better", is to just never really fix something, since the risk of angering people that don't know why it stopped working, and don't care, is too high.

moving further with my idea about the history for transactions

how about an option to have them auto emailed, daily, weekly, or monthly (for premium members)

ooo! I maybe get a chance to be a landbaron for about a whole $1 when than happens =p =)

Is true what you saying. We havent got to the landlord/tenant stage yet tho I dont think. We still in the monarch/vassal stage. LL absolute ruler at the moment and can do whatever they like.

As a tenant, then the landlord does have to at least meet their obligations in the tenancy agreement or the tenant can withhold or apply part or all of their rent money to remedy a problem that the landlord fails to fix or address. And the landlord cant kick the tenant out for doing this.

Unlike a king who can raise your fealty/tier as it suits him, confiscate your land, exile (timeban) you and/or chop your head off by cancelling your account whenever one of the kings minions declares you have broken the kings law. And you have no right of appeal, unless you personally know a higher-ranking minion who can bring influence and pressure to bear and overturn the decision of the lesser minion. Thats how monarchies work and thats how SL works now I think.

Youre right that landlord/tenant isnt the best, but I think king/peasant is a whole lot worse.

Some thoughts on first land:

I was lucky enough to get some. It was the only reason why I went premium. A basic space to call my own. I made some great friends because of it - great neighbors that are fantastic residents that contribute to society (Hi Buck & Wendy ). The problem was that it was grossly abused, resulting only in gross profits for certain high profile land barons.

Maybe what LL could do is have a few First Land sims, and prohibit the joining, division and the resale of these parcels. Anyone that finds that they cannot live within the 117 prim limit is free to buy more land, and they can abandon the first land. This land would be unzoned. The land could then be resold by LL to another new premium resident. Or, LL could just limit the amount of the resale price as has been suggested elsewhere, but 512L isn't a big loss if you're bothering to move up to other land anyway.

Even though land is not as prohibitively high as it was 2 years ago, the concept of First Land is still a strong incentive to ownership, and a modified program on a non-resale Linden Estate may give enough guarantees against abuse and still provide what people need.

The point I was making with all that, and I really wasn't trying to be a shit about it, was that tons of people would love to have and pay for those abilities on a smaller scale within THEIR budget. Land ownership is land ownership, and IMO there's really no good reason why those functions can't be made available to premiums AND island owners in a budget small island package that's not a full 65536m of grid space. The way it is now for premium account holders, there's absolutely zero product offerings that bridge the huge gap between buying on the mainland (and what you get/don't get with that), and buying a full prim island.

We can have both and more than both. At least 3 kinds I think maybe even more. I start a new thread soon on this because I think is a lot of merit in this idea.





I have a guard that sends advbots back to whereever they came from so its a start I suppose. They cant read those advbots. Unlike people who can and do appreciate why this is necessary sometimes. Tffcbots, well they dont come over my place so I dont have any reason to kill them. The poor wee things jammed into those little boxes like that. There should be a law against it. Avatar abuse or something. Maybe the avatar of whoever locked them in should get stuck in there with them. I bet they wouldnt like it anymore than the avas they have imprisoned

If they drop the stipened I would drop my preium. I dont need "precived" value.

Good idea. I like it. Is brill. Best idea so far =)

And maybe LL can just give it to you to use for the length of your initial sign-up. So if u sign-up for 3 months to start then thats how long you get it for. 12months use if sign up for 12months.

You dont get a tier bonus in this period because you get land instead. You can abandon it before your times up if you want and then start getting the tier bonus straight away. And if you do buy land other place for a small shop or something, during this period you can still have use of your First Land until your sign-up period ends.

I think lots of people will use their first land learning how to make stuff in their own little 512m sandbox without getting some of the hassles they get in public sandboxes. So maybe thats what LL called it. Sandbox Land for New Members.

Youd need a group of experienced people to monitor the sims closely. Because your going to get alot of spinning, particlely stuff and encroachment as people experiment. Its not the experimenting that would be a problem, its the logging off for two weeks and leaving fullbright spinning particle screamers behind. So the monitors should be able to return that kind of stuff.

Banlines would probably have to be disallowed as the redtape will kill you if every parcel around you restricted access. Or even better it gives LL an imperative to look at the whole redtape thing.

The monitors could be residents, Sandbox Mentors, a tight group of experienced creator/builder people, who also help the new members to learn how to build. Sandbox Mentor would not be something that you can apply to be. You get invited by LL like they do with the roadmoles.

Is a few more issues like this around how to manage it, but I think this idea is marvellous and I hope LL introduce it soon as.

Wow, this is a massive thread and I don't know if you guys will actually get to reading it but may I suggest maybe including some kind of out of world profile or card or something?

I don't know how many of you guys are into Zune's but their Social project is working out great. I have some little card thingy that updates every 30min, shows my latest music plays and albums and it's very interactive. Clicking it takes you to my profile page for zune, it's really nifty and fun to have.

These kind of small interactable things are very good ways to get people's attention and having soemthing like this for paying customers would definately be something interesting to have.

Here's my myspace if you guys want to see how cool and nifty it is.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=32208387

Short answer: Not much!

One of the most important features in almost anything is consistency and predictability. SL is overwhelming enough as it is, and in my opinion focus should be on improving these, usability and stability. This would not only continue to benefit premium users, but new residents as well:

- Consistency: Constant changes in the user experience, especially in traditional web services related to SL offered by Linden Labs.
- Predictability: Land use/cost (openspace/voids as of lately).
- Usability: Information about SL is very spread and hard to find.
- Stability: Continuous downtime and stability issues - rather than turning SL into buggy bloatware, focus should be on keeping things simple.

But, to to get more to the point:
One thing that could be a good incentive to premium subscribers however, could be to allow for more direct involvement in big issues: For example by using a polling system that not only serve merely as a feedback formula, but where the result would have a direct impact on how things actually turn out. Much like voting in a democracy. Second Life is after all "A 3-D virtual world, created, owned and run by it's Residents".

Best regards
Max

Oh, and PS: Yes I do remember Extreme3D, being a regular user up until 2002

I don't understand this. Do you mean you would get this land but you have to pay US$5/month for the tier on it?

I have a premium account, and I do intend to keep it ... that is unless LL can convince me otherwise.

Currently I see no benefit from having it.

Don't need the 300 L's , they are nice but not required.

Don't need the emails or webpages talked about by others.

I have a dinky 512 mainland parcel , give me a free 1024 and allow me to buy another each year if desired , NO TIER silliness.

Give me more than the skimpy 25 group limit.

Give me a 100 or greater IM cap.

Allow me to save a copy of my inventory to MY hard disk in any manner you consider secure and under your control , I hate loosing purchased items.

Yah. If you want to encourage people to go premium and buy mainland, do it with benefits outside the grid itself. Inside the grid, just keep improving the servers and clients... for everyone.

I mean I'd like more free land or lindens as much as anyone, but it ain't likely to happen... premium is already a pretty sweet deal. If you want to sweeten the pot, see my first message on this thread, on the first page.

While the current tier structure is pretty messed up, you can work around this with a premium alt to pay the tier on the land, using group land ownership.
Premium membership costs less than the first 512 square meters of tier.

Ah, OK, I get what you're saying. You're talking about M's comments, not about alternate structuring of accounts that eliminated premiums.

I was thinking that the alternative to "premium accounts" isn't "don't collect tier", it's "collect tier from non-premium accounts".

When you buy L$ on LindeX and those L$ happen to come from Supply Linden, you just paid Linden Labs directly for those Lindens. There's no difference between buying those L$ from Supply Linden and "buying" them as a stipend. Now YOU don't care if those L$ came from another resident or Supply Linden, but to Linden Labs that income is no different from premium accounts.

The relative advantage to premium accounts to Linden Labs is that they are a steadier source of income than Supply Linden, particularly when people renew annually... because they're prepaying for those Lindens they will receive over the year.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. If a basic account has the right to deed objects to a group they would equally well be able to use llTeleportAgent() as it's proposed. If a mainland property owner wants to allow a non-premium group member to do that, why shouldn't they?

The set up process is in itself a barrier also to commit to pay for 1 year in advance is not for everyone if this is what you mean by annually?

LL should make it as easy as possible for users of SL to pay into thier main income source and there should be as little as possible steps to being able to do so this is basic business ... as few steps as possible between you and your customers wallet.

The only reason to pay premium is to have land on the mainland this is a greater commitment than it need be imo. First of all you have to buy the parcel then you have to pay tier which is basically rent to LL because they will take your land off you if you fail to pay tier. If you want to leave you then have to sell it possibly at a loss.
Also the hard limits on tier levels / sqm is a barrier if i want to own a parcel just within the lower end of a tier level why would i choose mainland when i can have exactly the size i need and pay exactly for what im getting and if i want to move on i do so easily to the next level or size of land i wish.

Estate land under a good landowner is the simplest solution for whatever my needs may be and i have a lot more choice all highly appealing factors and little commitment required.

The server does no such thing.

All the server does is tell the client "these objects exist". It does this whether the objects are in view or not, and in an effectively random order (it seems to be based on the server's internal object ID, which is approximately the order the prims were actually rezzed, except when they re-use IDs from deleted prims, so over time it will tend to become more or less random).

The client then requests additional data from objects in view. Textures are downloaded by the client on the client's request. The textures are in a "progressive" format, so they can be shown in a blurry form before the entire texture is downloaded. The sim doesn't know nor care what the texture is, it's just a file to the sim.

Texture issues are mostly due to the fact that the client-side texture cache is very complex and not very efficient.