Feedback on the Mainland

It sounded from the text of the blog post that the zoning was goin to be applied to *NEW* LL land areas only.. i.e. a new block of sims may be created and 'zoned' to have no advertising...

I highly doubt anyone's existing land would be affected by this at all unless say, somehow 100% of the people who were within a sim could petition LL to change the zoning for that sim, and even that would probably be too much of a pain for LL to want to manage... much less if even one resident did not want it..

Jack,

This sounds like the right way to go. Also, thanks for utilizing the Forums to gain broader feedback.

I have a few questions.

1. How will this impact existing mainland? I have a commercial plot in Bay City that is loomed over my a bunch of mainland megaprims that I can't do anything about. Of course, Bay City is covenant-less. Will this change? Will I actually get a view there again? I also have a sizable residence in Islandia off the Sansaran mainland, in a home that has been there since around when the sim was initially sold. Will this be impacted? How will the concept of zoning and covenants affect existing mainland?

2. I've loved the idea of an LDPW, and have liked much of the works I've seen from them. Bay City was beautiful, and much of route 1 and 2 (the mole mart was the only build I wasn't too sure about) and the Island is great. Will the LDPW be maintaining legacy builds as well? Will the fix things like the Luna trolley, the Oak Grove saloon, or even the long-missing moth lamps in the Moth sims of Heterocera? (aside: does anyone even know what I'm referring to? ). Will they fix the already borked maze in Bay City - Imaginario, or ever make the playground in same actually work? Is the LDPWs goals focused on *new* content, or do they do any work on existing materials? If not the LDPW... then who? I am personally fond of the mainland's history, and wish to see some of these legacy Linden-sponsored builds maintained.

3. Can you give some additional insight about future continents? Will we see more "themed lands" a'la the Snow Sims or Mahulu, or will we see this handled in some other way?

4. Will land sales remain as is, with en masse auctions of full regions, leaving resellers to do the dividing -- or is Bay City the new model?

5. Any timetable on the expansion of Bay City to the west, or the formation of Hub Island to the north of Bay City - Docklands?

6. As well as Hub Island and the unfinished hub above west of Squall, are additional new infohubs or welcome areas in the works?

I'm a mainland fan. I want to see it succeed too, Jack. I definitely wish ya'll the best of this course!

Mari
(Who also wonders if there will be an expansion of mole staff, too)

I wish this announcement had come a year ago, along with related mainland quality-of-life measures such as minimum contiguous parcel ownership, ability of parcel owners to automatically eject encroaching prims, ability of parcel owners to enforce (i.e. prevent disabling of) camera constraints, etc.

Mainland blight is surely a lot easier to prevent than to fix after the fact; I will be interested to see how LL implements the details, and particularly whether they will be able to salvage blighted areas - but at least "better late than never."

The privae owners have some good ideas about how to do with advertising and floating buildings.

I thought this was going to be a real announcement; like a whole new spacial system, TBH this just sounds like more of the same ineffectual Linden policy that's allowed the mainland to degenerate into its current state. Not that it really matters since it's prohibitively expensive to own enough land to make a decent build anyway.

Now that things are in three dimensions (unlike email or the web), management is going to require a level of proactivity never before seen on the internet. Even if every sim had its own Linden employee manager I doubt that it could prevent things like ad farms or griefer attacks.

I guess I'm even more glad than ever that I sold my land last year, because the only thing worse than anarchy is poor oligarchical management!

So good luck, I sincerely hope that LL succeeds with these new plans, I'll be watching closely.

Good feedback so far!

Some additional comment from me:

The question of how this affects existing Mainland is a good one. Clearly changes we make re. advertising will impact the current Mainland regions, but with Zoning it is more complex and initially it's unlikely we will try to retrospectively Zone old regions. As one person points out, suddenly moving the goalposts in that way is difficult. Now it *may* be that one day we allow existing regions to opt in to Zoning if all owners there agree, but we shall see how feasible that is as we get closer to new regions being Zoned.

Other areas of work certainly will affect all Mainland, old and new. Cleaning up parcelling and terrain issues, completing coastline and beautifying Governor Linden Land for example. And this isn't about encouraging people to misuse Protected land, it may be as simple as trees being added, or water or some small content pieces being added to provide better views. Or just ensuring that autoreturn is set correctly.

Talarus: I appreciate that this needs to happen asap; it will move forward as quickly as we can sensibly make it. We're committed to quick change where advertising is concerned but setting policy and having resource in place to handle the implementation needs planning when you have 5000 regions to cover.

Given the size of the Mainland, perhaps the idea of ELECTED area councils might work. These councils would take responsibility for a certain number of adjacent sims.
The members would be ELECTED after being nominated.
The membership and the electorate would be confined to those with investment in areas in these sims - including the membership of groups who have headquartered on any of the sims.
The Councils would take responsibility for planning, including advertising and for the use of un-used or neglected plots.
The council would identify problems and liaise with the Governor in respect of Linden property on or running through the sims.
The Councils would have delegated powers to clean up areas and to require residents to take remedial action where necessary.

The councils would elect MAYORs and if necessary Judges who would conduct hearings in the event of disputes.
Councils would be re-elected every 6 months or on the request of an agreed number of those eligible to vote

I applaud LL for taking this step. It is not going to be easy to satisfy the masses of folks owning existing Mainland so zoning & covenants on any new mainland is an excellent start!

That being said, EXISTING mainland issues need to be addressed too.

Possible methods of applying the rules to EXISTING mainland:

1. On any change of ownership, prevailing zoning/covenants for the immediate area are implemented.

2. Current landowners can opt in/out of selecting the zoning/covenants they diesire to have applied to their individual parcels.

3. There should be a limit to how many TEMPORARY PRIMS a parcel can support. As a starting point, I suggest (i. e. for a 16 sq. meter parcel) 3 real prims and NO MORE than 3 TEMPORARY PRIMS. I used a 16 sq. meter parcel as an example but it should be enforced similarly for any sized parcel. The temporary prims use Sim resources and thus need to be limited in some manner so they don't hog the resources of other owners in the same Sim.

4. There needs to be a MAXIMUM limit set for how much a 16 sq. meter parcel can be sold for to help eliminate the ad-farm extortion that is currently taking place.

5. Advertising in a PG Sim needs to be PG ADVERTISING. any non-PG advertising in a PG Sim should be immediately removed by LL!

6. The owners of land bordering ad-farms should be able to build whatever they want on their own land to make the land they own a more pleasurable experince for them! If it blocks the view of the ad-farm so be it! If the ad-farmer wants to own or control the land around them then they should have to actually own it!!!

I could go on, but these are my top 5 suggestions. I'm hoping other folks will add their pet peeves as the discussion continues

I wonder if this might mean a new focus on management tools for mainland land owners, but likely that's not on the radar... But I'd like to put it out there, as it would be a great help.

I do worry about changes to existing areas. While there's a lot of blight, there are some areas that actually aren't that way.

It's good to see a renewed focus on what I thought was the "forgotten land". Hopefully this'll mean some positive things.

But also, hopefully, Jack can clarify as to how much 'eminent domain' will be practiced...

(Will we lose land where we are? Could any of our builds be changed outside of our control?)

As per Ceanna's suggestion, while I've actually considered that as a way to solve the "who will look after the mainland?" problem... my worry there is that elected governance, *depending on how things are split up*, is one of the few things that actually could wipe out certain areas. (i.e, our 4-ish contiguous mainland sims get 'tacked on' to 20 others, who decide that we're wasting land by having 'mostly trees' and should be paved to make way for a new mall.... Not such a good outcome. Unlikely, but this is SL.) -- I don't think LL likes the idea of resident governance anwyays, though.

More likely, they'd appoint Linden liaisons to certain segments who would be in charge of them.

A lot of questions...

Jack, will this new Mainland Approach include some sort of policy regarding Temp Rezzers? We all have seen how some ad-farmers are using these little devils to hog much of a sim's resources. If this is not abuse of resources, then I don't know what is.
Other than that, I enthusiastically welcome this bold step taken by LL to better game experience for all mainlanders. Yeay!!!!

My thought would be to zone reclaimed land as it becomes available on "legacy" mainland parcels. It would take longer, of course, but would take care of those who'd like to remain grandfathered with their current land settings.

Personally I'd rather see you take this approach with new mainland and leave existing mainland as it is in the first instance.

People purchased unzoned land, it would be a bit harsh to move the goalposts without first at least seeing how challenging this is for you guys.

Thank you so much for taking a part in making the mainland better for all!. I so hope this is actively pursued and becomes the norm for all the continents. Businesses, residential, whatever being separated will not only enhance the aesthetics of SL but will also allow for communities to become stronger and more vibrant. Take a look at many of the private themed sims and they are thriving communities enjoying the land and their surrounding because they feel like they are a part of that community. On the continents as they are right now, there is little consistency anywhere as far as community. Yes we are all in SL and it as a whole is our community, but right now all of our creations are a jumble of places just piled on the land. With a set of guidelines in place and enforced the owner of a small 512 wouldnt get pushed out of their home because of a sex shop opening up on their front door...nor would the shop have to constantly hit with discouraging IM's and threats from neighbors. We really have a chance here to tame the wild wild west and make it an even better place to play work create and earn and if Linden Labs is willing to take it on we shoulld try to do all we can to help.
I would like to mention that in the short time I have been here I have seen the world we share become more and more life like and closer to real. Now the sky has clouds, the sunsets are wonderful, I am able to hear the voices of my friends in far away countries. The only real limit to what I am able to accomplish here is my imagination. The posts on the blog are often filled with numerous complaints from folks that I am sure really have good intentions but don't realize a complaint alone is worthless without a reasonable, viable solution. While this isn't going to help with missing inventory or login problems, it appears to me to be one hell of a step in the right direction for a wide range of complaints I have seen and I so hope the community as a whole sees it the same as I.
I am very grateful to LL for SL and to all the rezzies that make SL such a wonderful place to play and explore,..thank you!

You can't really zone a parcel - the estate is zoned and the covenant showing the zoning rules for the estate should be visible and accessible. We don't need another tab for parcel zoning to stress out the database. I think some rational discussion with landowners on a sim by sim basis would be in order. Abandoned land that goes back into circulation would benefit from the zoning rules, and that works better when it is something the neighboring landowners agree upon.

Hmn... good point, my bad.

I think most of us agree that something has to be done about the anti-social use of ad lots. The difficult bit is where to draw the line, since advertising, in itself, is not unacceptable in SL.

Some people have called for an end to 16 m parcels, or even a minimum parcel size of 512m. Maybe a compromise would be that land can no longer be subdivided into parcels smaller than a 64m square. This would not affect existing 16m lots, which would remain until such time as a landowner joins them to another plot.

Almost as bad as ad farms is the use of clumsy, unsightly boundary screening. While some people might take care to have a beautiful backdrop around their garden, often they give little consideration to what it looks like from the outside, so we see things like ugly squares with clouds on next to a huge plywood board, sort of thing.

re. #21:

I agree with Ewan. I own a 1/2 sim rental community, part residential and part commercial, and with a skybox club way up there where it doesn't disturb the neighbors. I'm told it's a beautiful build and a great place to live. Will Linden Zoning put an end to multi-use builds like Lebettu?

On the other hand, if you could get my neighbors around the bend of the bay (to either side) to get rid of their channel-blocking builds. banlines, and security systems, sailors all over the north side of Nautilus would raise their glasses in salute.

This is going to be a very sticky proposition in currently existing Mainland sims. I"m glad to hear LL is going to 'tread lightly' with respect to this. Certainly Bay City is a good example of how Mainland should be handled from here on out. Good Luck.

Then you need to put a freeze on the Governance Team's actions until you roll out this new policy, because you are SERIOUSLY PISSING OFF quite a few residents. The problem children harass and extort, BLATANTLY breaking the rules, yet nothing is done about it, no matter how much it is reported, so, we take OUR OWN action, and in a matter of hours, our response to YOUR inaction is acted upon, even though we AREN'T breaking any rules. You get to make up your own on-the-spot interpretation of the rules to deal with our response to being harassed, yet it takes EXACTING policy and massive manpower formulated over months to YEARS of time to deal with the harassment in the first place. How in the world do you justify that ridiculous stance?

THAT part has to be fixed NOW, if you can't be troubled with speeding up the process to deal with the root problem.

As for "setting policy and having resources in place...for 5000 regions", don't give me that line. We're not talking that difficult of a challenge here. You've literally been given tens, if not hundreds of solutions, and reams of evidence, for well over two years now. How come every other private estate can sit down and knock out a complex policy on such things in a week, and it takes LL two YEARS? Even if you only count the last 5 months, that's still 4 months longer than you need. Why? Because the policy doesn't require 5 months of deliberation, nor does it require hundreds of employees to implement, since we're not talking more than a few hundred residents, and really much less than 50 who comprise 95% of the problem. Address them and their holdings, and you've VASTLY improved the mainland experience, as well as made a MASSIVE example of them for the rest. You are a smart person, Jack, but this situation is not the product of smart people.

By enforcing zoning on "new" land, but not rezoning existing land, you are creating a double standard which can cause one type of land to suddenly be worth more (or less) than it's previous market value. Kind of like the "haves" and the "have nots."

Princess Ivory

finally some good news, now do something about banlines on 16m2 parcels too as this is clearly another way of getting people to pay those high prices

I live on a hill top. The land is valuable, but I live in constant fear that some idiot will build one of those huge, ugly structures that have no apparent use or meaning and block my view. Which then depresses the value of my property. That should not be allowed. It is not allowed in RL towns and villages and should not be allowed in SL. A good first step would be to ban all those flying "For Sale" signs. There are many ways to advertise land sales without having to irritate the people who live in the area. I say, go for it, bring some order in this chaos!

well Bay city prices are not typical of mainland.

but generally people buy mainland because the tier, the ongoing land rent is lower, and in the case of those with partial sims because they feel more secure dealing with LL than with someone who could sell up their sim and disapear into the ether at any time.

So does this mean I will need to get approval from the zoning comission before construction can begin on my land?

Seems that SL and RL are becoming a bit closer all of the time.

I really want to thank you, Jack, for giving us this tool to discuss the mainland issues with a Linden! I'm very grateful and hope we all find this helpful in dealing with the issues of mainland ownership. Like many of us, my biggest issue with being a mainland owner is ad farms and how LL enforces rules.

As the situation with Mitzy Shino exemplifies, we're dealing with an issue of regular land owner vs ad farmer and the ad farmer winning, due to the 'blocked on three sides,' rule. Mitzy did what many of us have done and will continue to do and that is put up screens to block the view of the ads from our plots. Our most common screen is made up of phantom prims that are alpha channeled on all sides except the one which faces our plots, which does not prohibit the person from panning their cameras nor entering their own plots. Now, we're finding that this is being discouraged.

So how are we as landowners supposed to handle this situation?

We're told to AR. Great, if the plot is also for sale for a huge sum of L$. But what if it isn't? ARing isn't going to help us for a non-extortion plot. So, we can't screen and we can't AR, which leaves us with?

I admit I'll mount my favorite hobby horse here and say I'd love to see a visual muting tool. If web browsers can block ads from websites, then why can't our clients do the same thing? Then screens wouldn't be needed and well, neither would ad farms for anything other than land gouging.