Forum Facelift

The dangers of drinking heavily.

I may not always be on the same page as Strife, but let's face it Strife has the experience and has seen what it's like to be in the trenches. That adds some weight to the words. As a land manager, some frequent suggestions I get are utterly untenable - but no way to put anyone in my shoes, so they would never understand why.

Last resort, yeah, there are people I'd permaban too - people who acted in a criminal manner on the grid, that sort of thing. But this is rather rare - and not exactly on par with trolling. Even the worst troll is going to have a hard time with say, a six month suspension and no warnings left upon their return before another six month vacation. Perhaps a system like that will 'limit the pain' - a single out of line post or two every six months from a persistent troller won't do much damage.

I feel Isablan really hit it on the head with post 82 here - it's not the blatant trolls, but the 'just under the radar types' that can be really corrosive. I've seen many an honest, unpremeditated person feel threatened and respond with three or four 'attack posts' worthy of moderation - but these honest defenders really aren't the problem. The people instigating this sort of thing are causing the trouble.

Strife, with regard to amnesty I think the biggest problem is the issue of deciding who should be allowed back. We should either give them all amnesty, or none.

I don't think there is anyone among us (Lindens included) qualified to pass such specific fair judgement on past offenders on a case by case basis, or anyone who would warrant being the 'apology accepter.' The trolls would be a lesser evil than anyone who held themselves so high.

Access - I too believe in open forums - if the moderation effort could handle it, let 'em all post. Every last one.

Right now we only hear from those of us that drink the Kool Aide. Can that possibly be healthy? Right now, 87 million of the first 100 milllion SL users aren't paying customers, or even here yet. Something to consider.

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There are many people who have moderated forums, but these forums are a bit different. This isn't somethingawful.com or your random usenet political chat.

The people here are paying customers.

To make another analogy, say you had a restaurant where the waiters could report some 'problem' customers to the management.

Rest assured, such reporting would be pretty uneven (as it is in forums too) and I'd hate to think what would happen if a rookie waiter who didn't like Microsoft got to take care of Bill Gates' reserved table.

Maybe we don't have Bill here, but we have Sun, IBM, Warner Brothers, all those guys. The person that controls IBM's tier and SL budget on the grid has 150+ posts on this forum. I know who that person is. But does the moderator?

Most businesses are very careful about who can say no to a customer, for good reason.

* * * * *

Finally, a page from the parenting manual (you know, the one that floats down from the heavens when your firstborn arrives? Ok, I thought not!)

I'll expose what a smug, awful, arrogant guy I am - but I'll at least be honest. Good moderation, in my view, is a LOT like parenting.

In that sense, there's a huge difference between a timeout for Johnny no matter how long, and a permaban. Totally different message there.

Second, distraction works wonders. Put simply - close a thread, the proponents get the idea, they will get talking about something else and nobody gets hurt. No specific blame, everyone moves on. If they press on in 2-3 other threads, then yeah... time for a timeout.

Third, there are reasons for things. Say there are ten outbursts about adfarming - are the forum complainers in need of punishment, or is there really a serious problem? If six kids come in muddy and soaking wet from the playground, tracking mud across your carpet are they being brats, or did the neighbour sic their rottweiler on them?

It's important to look at reasons, not rules. No, it's more than important, it's critical, and that's why I think we need someone *really* looking carefully at what is going on, not just a lot of 'good moderators that stick to the rules'.

Trout Recreant wins the Internets. Forever!!

coco

Edited to add: I agree entirely with Desmond's well-considered thoughts in the post directly above, and agree that it should either be amnesty for all or amnesty for none.

Momma always said, "Drama is as Drama Does".

Seriously, I soundly disagree with the above. I've been to the popular third party sites and I honestly prefer the official forums; even with all the issues, etc.

Look. Anytime you bring together two or more Human Beings who meet regularly for whatever reason, there is going to be the potiential for drama/chaos. It's in our nature. It is also in our nature to want to connect and get to know each other, not just "ask a question, answer a question".

It doesn't matter if it's an online forum, a sports team, a sewing group (my nana was in one of those and um...whoa) a book club, church, or any other of the billions of ways we meet, greet and hang out together - there are going to be spats, disagreements, people who clique (pun intended) and good times had by all as well.

Just bring back the General Discussion forum - this will seperate the drama-lamas and chaos bringers from the general population and return the RA to what it was intended. That way, those who don't want to participate in what is quite often a really good time had by all in the forum don't have to be bothered with it.

And while you're at it, make the forum more fun with updated smiles and what not.

My 2 cents...more to come probably.

I think that there shoud be some in-word connections to the website, similar to how the Knowledgebase works. Maybe a link inside the F1 panel to go to the forums, and a way to get updated in-world to topics that you subscribe to.

Thanks for the welcome, everyone!

I seriously appreciate all the carefully considered -- and one or two of the silly -- responses to the question of what should happen with the forums.

I have read every comment, in case you're wondering. And I'll carefully review them again before any recommendations/decisions are made.

Other ideas, oh community? Post 'em here.

Thanks!!

KATT'S FIRST POST!!!! WOOOO HOOOOOO!

Welcome Katt, I hope you'll bring me back to RA.

Welcome Katt.

Here's a thought from someone who has posted here far too often, LOL ...

Don't ever let the SL forums get you down, remember its a text-based time-released kind of deal that can sound far more cynical than the sum of its parts.

Why aren't you orange, Katt? Discrimination!!

Welcome

Disclaimer: Most of us really do care and many of us are passionate about the things we believe in. Don't let anything get you down.

....and, due to RL work issues, I completely missed this thread. But I'd still volunteer as mod, if needed...even though some people have called the list on the blog a collection of scoundrels or some such. And welcome Katt!

And I think Strife added some very valuable points-especially as he's got the experience to actually understand these things....

My feelings are in line with Travis's mostly, including leaving the ban list alone.

More importantly though, I agree with him that this all hinges on exactly what LL is willing to provide in terms of staff to moderate, whether that be LL employees or an LL employee overseeing a resmod system (the current system needs reworking, if a resmod system is to be retained).

Assuming that LL is willing to provide some sort of moderation, then I would re-open General and Off-topic. General for SL related chatter, and Off-topic for everything else.

Leave Resident Answers as is - it's a valuable resource, most of the time.

I wouldn't bring back political/religious or land/economy - those were continuous flame fests, especially the latter. If people want to rant about politics, they can do it in OT like it was a few years ago, or possibly a subforum for politics and religion under OT.

Just because some people are poorly socialized a**holes is not an excuse to allow them to run rampant on your company-owned website. At some point, LL has to sit back and say "do we REALLY want our name on this stuff where corporate clients can read it, where new residents are reading it?" The old General and Off Topic forums were an embarrassment. Whether anyone likes it or not, this is a corporate website, not a playground for people bored at work who want to flame each other all day long. When SLU goes up in drama flames the only person whose reputation is damaged is Cristiano's for letting it go on too long. When the SL forums go up in drama flames it damages LL as a company and makes them look sloppy and negligent. Very different risk.

Perhaps true, although I would argue that LL would find itself, as a web community host with laughable general subforums, not alone.

IMHO, though, the only other alternative is to very strictly moderate RA, with no general fora, to have a support-only site. Strife was not actually all that strict in the year that I saw him moderate ... but he was arbitrary, permitting GD and social posts that he thought were harmless to run for quite a while. That is clearly untenable, the rancor against him because of it was unbelievable. I just don't think LL wants to live through as unpleasant a scenario as Strife was willing to take on. So, you moderate RA very strictly and all the helpful posters leave, because it is no longer a community, but simply an unpaid support job.
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Trout, thank you! I Lol'ed MAO so long that my "A" actually fell off this time. Thank goodness I was already at home. xD

A note to those who want the forums closed - I lurked for about a year as my dearly departed original Avi before I began posting as Sol. I don't think you guys truly understand the value to those of us who may remain silent lurkers.

I cannot begin to express all the things I have learned here - about building, texturing, where to shop, where to play, land management, etc...the list goes on and on. Thank you Lindens for opening this conversation.


All I'm doing now is piggy-backing what everyone else has said I guess but anyway...

1. Read-only for everyone, posting limited to payment info on file.

2. BBCODE!

3. General Discussion forum (as I mentioned before).

4. Rants & Raves forum - we really need it, yo?

5. Absolutely separate the forum bans from in-world bans.

6. On that note, clear the existing bans - AFTER good moderation is in place. Bygones.

7. A time limit on bans, no more perma bans. Foster some good will guys.

8. Most important to me: More Linden participation and presence here. Period. I don't really know how this would be put into play, but I'd like to see a space where residents could ask questions/dialog with various Lindens directly. I know this is likely a fantasy, but I dream of that...

Little story from my pre-Solanghe days: I had done a typical newbie thing and rezzed a structure in the air and couldn't delete it. I called on live help, chatted a few moments with the helper and a few minutes later she TP'd TO ME (!) assessed the situation, walked me through deleting this enormous structure and tossed in a couple of LM's to some really neat places to boot.

*SIGH* Good times. Good times.

This is a very pessimistic view on the entire idea of having forums really.

If its as dim as you are making out here - they should allow people with questions only to start new threads, but only let a handful of approved people respond to them. Resident Answers answered by only an "approved" list of Answerers.

I would rather think that corporate clients understand what an open forum is .. and will not have the high expectations you suggest. Since some general discussion goes on in the official forums of nearly every TV show, MMO game, and the rest, on the net.

Corporate owned website - yes.
And what exactly is the first thing one reads at the top of this corporation's official site when one clicks on 'Community' ?

"Welcome to the Second Life world.
We are a global community working together to build a new online space for creativity, collaboration, commerce, and entertainment. We strive to bridge cultures and welcome diversity. We believe in free expression, compassion and
tolerance as the foundation for community in this new world."

Trying to manage the forums will have it's challenges, anything worth striving for usually is. It's their 'mission to connect us all to an online world that advances the human condition'.

If the forums are to reflect LL's guiding principles, they will have to be a place where people can not only work together and show initiative (residents helping residents) but also a place where people can have fun. Yes fun, it's allowed you know - even at LL I'm sure.

As for the 'socially inept', every Community has them. How they will be managed using the least amount of time ($) is Katt's challenge, (lucky you!)

The 'Socialepts' do NOT reflect the company, but how the company treats it's community (clients/employees) does . Will they refuse to open up a GD forum (fun) for the vast majority who do not flame, or rise up to the challenge?

The forums may not be in 3D, but they ARE a valuable extension of the inworld experience, and a GD forum would be a fun addition.

My thoughts,

It would be nice to be able to post pictures on the forums without having to find a hosting service.

(BTW Flickr is using Yahoo ID now which *requires* a credit card to sign up for. I do not have a Flickr account for that reason.)

I think a general posting forum would be good to keep seperate from Resident Answers. Peoples opinion and general information about SL and related items are very valuable and should be retained but not in a place designed to field questions asked by residents.

It would be really really nice if there was a link to show you the recent unread threads. I am often playing catchup and things disappear too fast.

A Linden presence would be appreciated and some moderation I think might be in order but not the thread moving deleting kind, or at least if you are going to delete or move thread then an easily found reason should be postedin the place the thread was.

I personally believe that the forums provide a mutally beneficial service. I lurked on and off until recently. I don't have anything new to add per se, just some thoughts:

I didn't know until this thread that what you say here could get you banned in world. I probably should read all those sticky threads in each forum, though I don't forsee that being a problem for me anyway. Clear, concise rules are essential - moderators locking threads is effective in stopping most "problems" from becoming "big issues" is what I've noticed from my forum experience in other places - a cute catch phrase eases the pain and gives us lurkers something to look forward to seeing. ((Katt growls Case Closed or something.)) I bet Trout could come up with a great one - and no other explanation needed other than that. If it's being closed for a rule break the people who broke them need to know that as well.

I didn't know until reading on another forum a few weeks ago that not everyone could read these forums. I thought you just had to be logged on. Since much of the whole product is open source code, I don't see that whatever is said here is so important as to exclude people. I personally don't care if you open it up so that anyone can post too. The more the merrier is a general motto of mine

I agree with most of what other people have said. Enabling the code to see links, etc. would make them less frustrating for those of us who DID read that sticky on how to make them work, but can't figure out how to make the program it links to work.

I thought Resident Answers WAS a general forum so I'm guessing you should bring a General Forum back if you want resident answers to be something more specific.

I agree that a "I'm Ticked and Want the World to see me Vent" type of forum might be good ((though I'd rarely read that one.)) I have noticed that forums that have such a place generally have less negativity in their other sections.

I'd like to keep the various sections, I actually like how they are divided up so specifically.

The forums are useful on many levels in my opinion.

My suggestions:

- Have the ability to save threads. What I'm suggesting here is not like subscriptions, but rather for further reference. This is especially helpful for scripts and such.

- As many others have suggested, a face lift of the forums. Perhaps, have color schemes as well.

- Also, as many others have suggested, more patrolling of threads to keep out the griefters and spammers. It can make otherwise nice threads descend into name-calling and losing the original intention of the thread.

- A new forum for camping places. This can help for cutting down posts in other forums and reduce the need for having camping groups in-world, thus having more space for other groups available.

- A "business" area where users can advertise their businesses. This would be different from the Services forum because it would be the business owner and not for scripters or builders. The Services forum would still be for scripters, builders, clothing designers, and the like. Such a forum would help the business grow, as well as the economy and (hopefully) the quality of SL.

- I'm also in support of RL forum(s), with at least a general discussion one available. It would be nice to have ones for countries or regions, as well. Also, as a music fanatic I'd love to set a music forum. It would help connect people who love the same types of music, as there is no real way, outside of in-world groups, to connect with others about music.

- I'm also in support of having at least some of the forums restricted to those with Payment Info Used, such as the land sales and property sales forums.

- Again, I'm also in support of having a "I Want To Do Bad Things To LL Because SL Is Being Insanely Stupid" forum. This helps out to see if others have the same issues you're having in-world or with other aspects of the SL website.

I think that is all I can think of right now.

What do you all think?

Thanks,
Gay Flatley

An online community with no forums community ...

Just a weird concept.

Oh, no...PLEASE no. Nothing that encourages the lag inducing nightmare which is camping.

I think that there will always be camping in one form or another. I suggested it because it would cut down on posts on other forums, thus allowing people who want to camp find a place and those that have camping spots to advertise it. I know some want to know where there are good camping spots and some don't, so why not have a forum for it? It would be better than people asking for them in General Discussion should that be added as a forum.

Gay Flatley

OK, by that logic, why don't we have a forum for griefers too? I mean, there's always going to be griefing in one form or another, right?

Just because something potentially problematic may always exist in-world, that doesn't mean it should be encouraged.

Griefing is "illegal"; camping is "disliked". There's a difference.

I second the motion for a separate forum for camping.

They both create problems, generally quite purposefully...perhaps not on the campers' part, but on that of the person who puts out 15 or 20 camping chairs to game traffic.