Forum Facelift

I'd also like to echo everybody who's mentioned the valuable resource these forums have been for content creation. When I was first learning the scripting language, searching the tips forums often provided useful answers, and looking through the library taught me a lot about how to write my scripts. It's a real shame to keep those answers locked away from the general SL public, available only to verified users.

I have always enjoyed these forums and do not participate on any other forums.

These forums should stay because they are great for when SL is down and also for when people cannot get in SL, such as when they are at work or school or even if they have PC problems. Many times, people post here about an inworld problem before it hits the blogs!

I find the Building, Texturing and Scripts Tips forums are a wonderful vast amount of knowledge.

I think a new forum for General Discussion is needed badly, now would be a good time.

Oooh... so that's what your avatar looks like! Pretty!

Ya, that would be kind of nice. Frivolous, but nice. I can't seem to fit my big head in those tiny squares, hehe.

Also, when we access Resident Forums, the list is so very long. Instead of showing the last post of each sub-forum, could we use that space to split the list in three, to be better able to view all in one quick glance?

I think SL would be minus a few scripters without the scripting forums here. I can't be the only person who couldn't have learnt without them.

I'm happy with the scripting forums except for the search, which makes me nuts.

When you search on "prim" and "sit", it tells you sit is too common a word, and eliminates it! AAAAAH! let me decide. In this context, it's critical to my search.

When you search on functions, such as llRequestPermissions, the search results deny all knowledge of that function ever having been referred to in the forums. Erp.

I have posted about this here:

/54/c9/233398/1.html

Solution? Can we not just make the forums public, and let Google index them? The current search engine is just in the way of people learning. It's holding us back.

1) Use the Google system to index the forums, so that searching can be done easier. This will help assist in decreasing the number of repetitive threads

2) Have certain key areas open for reading by all residents, and at least 1 area open for reading by anyone. The blog is good, but often times a quick look through the support forums to find if anyone else is having the same problem running a application helps greatly. I would say that posting may still need to be restricted though.

3) Depending on the number of chosen moderators, a support forum with very active moderation that is open for all posters, primarily for the 'Installation and Running' of the Second Life client. I would still tie that forum to a valid and active Second Life account though, just to assist in the prevention of spam and flame wars.

Well, my suggestions:

- As with almost everyone else bbCode coming back would be a great idea

- Resident Answers is a fantastic idea. Having a social forum is also a great idea but using RA as the social forum is not ideal. Arguably, we should just have a separate social forum, but I can understand why LL might not want that. It would need to be moderated more than it is at the moment. Also, to be useful to new residents, non-payment residents would need to be allowed to at least read, and maybe post to, it (although I know this would create problems with spam). The other forums can be left inaccessible to those people, as an encouragement to add payment info or go Premium.

- A really blue-sky thing here: it would be nice to have an easier way to upload or drop building examples, or textures, into forum posts. There have already been posts here praising the scripting forums, and it would be nice to give builders and texturers the freedom to do what scripters already can - easily place their work into their forum posts to be discussed or to be added to a library. A way of doing this with builds could actually be scripted in world (I might try doing that, and I believe there's already an existing system too - Strife's TLML), but textures would probably require some recoding of the forum engine.

- Please keep the classifieds. Or if any must go then please, please, for the love of us all, keep Products Wanted. It's an awesome resources that has absolutely no workable in-world equivaent.

Everyone else has said everything I could possibly hope for (apart from those who said 'shut it down' ) - some very wise words here.

The only thing I have to add is a Sculptie Tips forum - currently found both in Building and Texturing. But Nika's list here: /327/19/234843/3.html#post1846684 pretty much covers what most people seemed to want for a restructure.

I too have learned most of what I know in SL from the Forums (or the LSL Wiki). They are an invaluable resource, and we are a priceless bunch


[ETA - just realised this is my 200th post. YAY! ]

True enough. One issue I have with the idea of a new GD forum is that there are a couple of these types of people floating around in RA already who manage to stay subtle enough to fly under the radar yet still instigate a significant amount of flame wars. The behavior is artful enough that the likelihood of them earning an actual ban is practically non-existent. I personally feel that giving these individuals a new playground with expanded posting rules is rewarding bad behavior. At least in RA a moderator has the excuse of “this thread is not in keeping with the spirit of the Resident Answers forum” in order to clamp down. In a GD atmosphere there is limited opportunity to reign in this type of “stealth trolling.”

My 2 cents

Some one suggested the idea of re-organising the layout of the forums so that the technical forums are placed higher up than the RA forum. I would second that as being a very useful idea.

I also second (third, whatever) the suggestion of creating General Discussion forums, also an even more general Rants and Raves forum, both of which are "enter at your own risk".

I also would like to see the forums accessible to ALL residents for reading purposes, and for the technical ones, even to TG Residents.

To help keep RA from being a flame fest, going off-topic, etc introduce a system of warnings and bans from posting in that section. EG: If you flame/post off-topic/etc then you get a written warning. If you continue to do so, and accumulate say 3 written warnings then you may no longer post in RA for a given time.

I also agree that in-world, and forum bans should be separated. There are several notorious trolls that in-world are very productive and helpful people so one should not be linked to the other.

I would also like to see a section (some one else also suggested this) where comments and discussion is enabled on Blog posts. There is many times one would like to comment, but already comments are closed so one's suggestion/question/pov is not able to be expressed, but then pops up on a totally unrelated blog post.
It would also maybe help notify that when an issue is posted as [RESOLVED] but isn't.

Another suggestion is to have an in-world link to the Forums (just like with Help, KB, etc). And maybe also become one of the text messages that comes when logging in. This would make many more people aware of the forums, and also possibly alleviate quite a lot of the Support tickets that are opened, as there is a place they can immediately ask a question, or look to see if others have that same issue.

Also totally agree with all the suggestions that the forums
- have a clearly defined set of rules;
- have a warning about going off-topic before being locked;
- that warnings given to a poster be consistent, and refer back to
the rule in question;
- and be moderated only by Lindens (would suggest a team of 10
covering all time zones for this).

Well, my idea is: SL has everything in world. Move everything in world, have people there to help in a sim and a kind of discussions that had there we save in a post like this or blog or something just if someone wants to read later. Or i play SL or I'll stay on the web all they long with all the stuffs SL has out world.
I admin some sim in world and people has tones of problems in world. They don't know how to talk to about it and they need. Mentors like me can help about simple things but we can't act like polices, advertisers, etc. Many people there do and make wrong things or right things in a difficult way cause they don't have a "stop point " in world. Well... i think you understand me right? Any doubts I'm in world almost 20 hours a day. So fell free to contact me that I explain. Bye all I LOV U, MOMMY, GOD and SECOND LIFE. Bye cause i have to go there.

Respectfully, no. This is a resource that doesn't require anyone to be inworld, and there are already inworld services that teach. NCI, TUi, etc. plus the standalone tutorials. But with most of content creation taking place outside of SL (sculpties, animations, sounds, textures) why should it be inworld just to find it? It doesn't make sense to me.

I think there should be unapologetic Moderation ..

Just explain in the rules that in order to maintain order with a minimum of resources it will be necessary to close some threads that some posters may not feel warranted it.

The balancing act and holding true to the letter of the law led to the whole "Ban on the forums/ Ban in word" that so many of us find ridiculous.

The moderator should be a Marshal not a Guidance Counselor. Ride in, shoot everyone who looks overly ornery and ride out.

Pre-emptively closing powder-keg threads will lead to a LOT less disciplinary action in the long run.

People can always discuss things on other threads. No matter what the subject its gonna come up again within a week or three anyhow.

This way the mod wont have to sit there reading every thread that shows up, She can just check the forums a few times a day and look for trouble-spots.

Robin please close the forums, they have outlived their usefulness. All i ever see is the same 20 or 30 people using them. Its a waste of the Linden's time and resources. There are a ton of forums these people can use.

"At this point my plan is to work with Katt Linden to update the vBulletin software, map out a plan for revitalizing the forums and integrating them with the blog. Updating guidelines, revisiting permanent bans, archiving and creating new forums will all be part of what we look at. I’m sure you all will have lots of input, so please discuss with us here."

Robin, I would implore you to consider not integrating the forums into the blog. IMO, I find the blog less than helpful. It may be that I just don't understand how to use the blog but every time I've tried to make heads or tails of it I leave frustrated.

Though I understand policing the forums is counterproductive and tedious the blog to me, only tends to separate the residents from the Lindens. There is again, IMO nothing broken with the forums that can't be corrected with a suitable moderator and quick perusal of the sticky's that set the guidelines by the posters old & new.

I was greatly diss-appointed when live help left. More so with concierge service that cut me out (because even though I pay more than the minimum, its for two accounts, my partners as well as mine and both fall to the teir level just below concierge status) and so it minimized the immediate help I and many more like us could recieve. When the forums were slated to close it was with great relief that most was carried on .

I do applaud that LL see's the forums are integral to the residents and seeks to address some abuses that may be cropping up. The inclusion of Lindens to the forums would to me help with customer relations which I think is a good move.

SL has been at times appeared too quick to introduce new features while old bugs still continued to erode the overall attitude, so when you state integrating I get queasy, lol.

I respectfully submit, though a new forum may satisfy some and I am not totally opposed to that, the forums as are, are just fine and any major overhaul changing the look and feel of the current forums would further the gulf between residents and our hosts.

Bravo, that you would address a growing mismanagement of certain aspects. Now about them asset servers lol.

Robin, I'm confused about your comments about integrating the forums with the blog. If it means taking what is currently called the blog and making it a system status info only page that would be great. Mixing the systems updates with the blog is a really bad idea.

If you do that, however, what exactly do you mean by integrating the blog and the forums together? That's confusing to me.



At this moment there are 369 people logged into the forums. I doubt only 30 - 30 are just logged and the rest aren't doing anything. If only a small number are posting (which isn't true) then obviously we have a lot of lurkers on here to learn something. 369 people are not likely to log in just to read banter on a regular basis.

This thread is less than 6 hours old and so far I count 71 unique names posting to it. Not counting the comments on the blog from people who want the forums kept open. I respectfully disagree.

Plus, you fail to take into account the lurkers, who do not ever post but do learn.
.

ATM, 1.087 views. People do notice the forums. I suspect some of them even tell their friends.

There are at this instant 367 residents using the forums. And that's the publicly available count; the Forum's vBulletin software provides administrative statistics on the number of unique readers and posters over selected intervals, so it's very easy for LL to establish the current size of the Forum's diverse user community.

Glad that you are looking for feedback on Forum improvements and changes

my $L.02

Add a General Discussion area for those that can't resist posting off-topic threads in Resident Answers and elsewhere. The forums are a subset of the general SL community and people in a community like to have a place to chat. If there is not a sanctioned place for this then the chatter extends into unwanted areas.

More obvious, specific guidelines about what belongs in each forum category.

More aggressive and consistent moderation. Get rid of cross-posted ads, keep threads on topic, enforce the rules. Not an easy job, but one that seems necessary for a healthy, informative resource.

Add the ability to 'ignore' forum categories. I read the forums by hitting the New Posts option and rarely go to specific categories. It would be great if I could set things up to ignore certain categories when I click on New Posts. The ability to view only the parts of the forums that interest you would make it easy to find the 'good stuff' - whatever the 'good stuff' is to you.

Keep vBulletin, keep it updated, and turn on BBcode.

Crowd based moderation. Some sort of voting system for threads and comments would be nice. A simple thumbs up/thumbs down , +/-, or star system with an optional ability to filter posts and comments that have been voted down sufficiently. Or put low scoring posts and comments in lighter gray text and highlight higher scoring info. This could be a great way to help us moderate ourselves.

Closing the forums would be shameful waste of a wonderful resource. I have learned so much by combing through these forums, especially when it comes to new features and building techniques.

If you are going to be having volunteers help with the moderation .. Give them dummy accounts to Moderate with.

Preferably all with the same unique last name (if not Linden, maybe Moderator, or Volunteer)

This will help with any mod bashing,

Especially since we will be familiar with the volunteers.

I'd like to second this one. Some would say that if you don't want a thread then don't read it, but it's not that simple. There could be a large number of threads created with perfectly legitimate topics but none that I'm interested. It's very easy, for me at least, to miss threads I am interested because they are mixed in with the rest.

Just like the ignore people button, it just makes it easier on the eyes to look over what you know you don't want to see.

after giving it a lot of thought, i have to say i agree with closing these forums.

there are millions of message boards out there. i can think of 20 people off the top of my head who would be able and more than willing to head up an SL message board...perhaps a vote could be held here for which user would donate their time and web space for these forums? the game doesnt need this.

with the amount of problems there are in SL, and the amount that go unfixed, we need every linden we can get solving in world issues.

ive been in a lot of online communities and every single one of them has its problems. people understand when things go wrong on the grid... what they cant understand is why theres suddenly nobody there to help correct it.

every online community ive seen die, died because of lack of customer service.

take the lindens off of this board and put them back in game, helping fix the problems.

~since you asked...

Thank you for soliciting our imput! Here's my list:

(1) BBCode enabled

(2) General (SL General) forum returned; keep Resident Answers as well

As a good example of why we need a forum about SL in general, right now someone may be in possession of an important fact (it happened just today on the forums, but I can’t remember what I read this morning!), and have absolutely no "legal" way of informing other residents of it, as it is a piece of useful information; not a question.

(3) Readable by anyone with an SL login

(4) Linden Moderators (emphasis on the plural)

(5) Get rid of the rule that says a forum suspension or ban automatically means a suspension or ban in SL

Here I would like to second Desmond's comments:

“De-link forum suspensions with inworld suspensions. Because to do so sets up a very uneven enforcement. For one person it's just another free signup. For another it's the destruction of their business and horrific consequences.”

This is so true. In addition, speech violations on a forum (and those have been VERY inconsistently interpreted, sometimes biased with favoritism as well) are a completely different type of violation from setting loose griefer cubes in SL and things like that.

And yes, tell people what they have done wrong, with a reference to the post, when sending warnings, suspensions, etc.

I also like Desmond’s idea of forum bans for 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, if necessary, rather than permanent.

And yes to the general amnesty.

(6) No integration with the blog

(7) Keep the Classified Forums (all of them)

-----

Of these, number (3) and (7) are most important to me.

(Not that you have mentioned getting rid of Classified; I just remember that was mentioned a year or two ago, and I've been a-feared ever since)

coco

close the forum...resources are better off used for support

its interesting that the majority of those calling for forum closure have less than 10 posts to their name.

anyway, ive lost all faith in this forum and LL. i dont even have the will to type up my suggestions.