Anatomy of a Fail

Isablan....I was going to come in and respond to original topic...but figured you would be long gone.

Anyway....I respect you for shopping in the way you described, and making choices....even if it takes a bit longer. Since your sim is visited by many....you're able to make an impact. Although some said that it won't matter whether you chose to purchase from a bot runner or not.....it will.....you will be setting down creations that will be viewed by a large portion of the SL population....and promoting someone who does business the way you approve of....possibly giving someone new a great opportunity for exposure.

It matters.

I've always had to laugh about the those running bots who belong to the groups promoting the protection of content theft....with the large promotional posters in their stores......that's hilarious.



Maybe you and I read entirely differently.....but appears to me that she just proved how "ineffective" the use of traffic bots is.

I agreed with that yesterday, when the old video tennis pic was posted, but the most recent thing between Sling and myself is more than that. Sling posted my reasons for wanting rid of bots - twice. Both times they were inventions of his own, and nothing to do with the truth. That's the most recent stuff and it's not exactly throwing shit at each other.

They were only ineffective as far as Isablan was concerned, but very effective as far as the bulk of customers are concerned. There is no comparison between the two.

How do you tell?
BT

Look at the map, sometimes you have to fly up or down a bit to find them.


on the topic and arguments:

But mostly I see the arguments from a history class discussion on slavery (not saying anything about bots and the use...)

How you had many that wouldn't say it was wrong for them to have had slaves till it was banned, even if they disliked slavery. They used the argument that it was the only way to compete with others, and that they treated them better, et al.

It's a defensive posture thing, a lot like how some oriental cultures exists the face issue. they do anything they can to avoid losing face.

And that is why some have problems with Phil, in most of his posts he seems to actually be advocating bots for traffic rather than being against them. And that makes people question his comments even more, since he basically set himself up as a spokesman for something he claimed to dislike.

I love your store.
bt

Well that is for being Dutch, we do speak a few languages since our country is so small probably.


While I understand where you are coming from, he is right too. In this thread alone, twice Sling posted why Phil is against traffic bots, without any facts. If that is not lying, it is at least slander.


While formulating an answer is tough at times, I read English as if it were my first language. And if the first few postings are normal, and as soon as she does not know any more arguments I am getting bullshit in return, I draw my conclusions. Especially if it happens again and again.


Thanks, I would not feel confident in participating if me grasp of the language was any less. While I read and speak German and French as well, I would not even think of writing in it.


Understood, and I would not use the same wording in any other case



Well I do not draw conclusions from the cat turd throwing between them, but from my own experiences with Sling. And I believe that regarding these kind of topics I know what she is about, at least forum-wise. Of course there might be a wonderful person behind the avatar, but I can only relate to the posts I see here.
And I do not recall that after all the times I made clear that I did not see an answer in post #106, I saw any clarification.

That said, I do enjoy our debate. Sure you don't want to step over to the dark side? The force is strong in you *grins*

I probably do come across to many readers like that. When Anya was doing her surveys, I did one of my own, and I came across someone who recognised my name from the forum. He thought I am someone who is in favour of bots.

I have been against them for a long time, as regulars here know, but not on any pseudo-moralistic grounds. So I've had no qualms about competing in business by using them. When people do things like brand traffic botrunners as cheats, etc., then I defend, of course, and I must give many people the impression that I am in favour of traffic bots.

No, actually, I didn't. I didn't CALL you anything. The statement you're taking out of context is the THIRD in a line of general statements, outlining that your criteria for "success" in this situation was incorrect and why. That you took specific umbrage to it is understandable, I suppose, but that's not what was said.

The point is, as you well know, I consider traffic gaming "cheating". That's a given. That you gamed traffic only makes you a "cheater", in my view, through guilt by association. However, that statement wasn't meant as an accusation, but to point out that there are people who don't have to "cheat" to succeed, as well as people who do, and it doesn't bother them, but the distinction was for the former more than the latter.



No, I only stoop to insults when the other party makes it clear that is the level of communication they understand and desire, which is pretty much what I get from the vast majority of your posts. I also don't just "charge in" willy-nilly. I've got just as much purpose in joining the fray as anyone else has.

As you can see, Marcel and I have had a very nice little conversation in the midst of your continued grousing with Sling, which sets the stage for even more of the same between us, because that is the kind of communication you desire and engender in other people. So, I give you what you are telegraphing me that you desire. If you don't desire it, then STOP.

Simply put, you attract in others the things you display in yourself.



Yeah, but when the debate is comprised of someone making a point and you responding "Lies! Liar!!", what's does the notion "agreeing to disagree" in that sense even mean?



..and I don't? O.o I bet you don't even see the irony in those three sentences.



Most often, the reason is because someone made a valid point you can't really argue with, except to say "No it's not!", "Liar!", or some other vacuous rebuttal.

You're free to take umbrage at anything I post, either to you, or about you, whether it is offered or not. Just don't expect me to take the high road when you're asking for the low road.

Only quoted this part because its a nice challenge, and does show the difference in thinking.

If I had a farm those days, probably my only way to compete would be having slaves. Actually paying people for work would make my product too expensive.

So what makes me decide here? Only the question whether I can justify the use of slave labor to my own conscience. maybe I would have, in those times, I can't say since I live now. Let's say me conscience was no barrier back then, and I would have used slave labor. Would that mean I like slave labor? maybe I would rather have seen that everyone used payed labor, but I did not think that I could change the system on my own.

Exactly the same goes for bots. If they do not conflict with my conscience, I can run them. But that does not make me like them. Actually I prefer a SL without bots, but me not running them does not change the fact they are used by so many.

To even draw things further, and use our favorite example Phil

Say I use slave labor in order to being able to run my business without going bankrupt (all others use it as well of course). Still I am actively trying to stop slave labor as a valid option. As soon as the government forbids slave labor, I will stop using it.
Well that is what I have seen Phil do. He actively participated in the removal of traffic as a metric to stop bot use. He was one of the first to remove bots (except models and guards ).

We had that discussion in another thread, at length.....where it got really nasty, and I regret how I reacted to your insults....so I don't care to debate it again. Lesson learned.

I simply disagree.

No, I have problems with Phil because he RAN traffic bots. Not only that, but he RAN them at the same time as decrying them. That's like a double-whammy for me.

Not only cheating, but also being a hypocrite about it as well.

..and, yes, Phil, you can consider this insulting if you want, but I believe it is the truth.

Personally, I don't see why you don't just come out and accept it. It's not like anyone is going to react to you any differently if you admit to it and accept what you do for what it is. Well, there will be a lot less arguments over it, I guess, but that's about it.

You wrote what you wrote, in reply to me personally, and what you wrote was insulting to me personally. I don't believe for a moment that it wasn't intended, or that you didn't realise that it would be taken as insulting. I am confident that it was totally intentional. So you can spin away as much as you like - the fact remains, that you threw the first personal insults and you can have no objections if any came back at you. The alternative is to apologise for them, even if you didn't mean them. But I don't thinks that's likely to happen.

Regarding a paragraph in your post to Marcel:
Even if you don't accept that Sling didn't answer Marcel's question, there is no doubt whatsoever that Sling has been lying about me in this thread, and with a view to having people believe something that is detrimental to me. So I really don't see any reason why I should not call him a liar.

The reason you don't see why is because you're blinded by your own ultra-biases - and not a little wishful thinking.

For the second time in this thread...
If I'd thought that there was anything wrong with using traffic bots, and I still used them, then I would have been a hypocrite. But, since I have never thought that there is anything wrong with using them, I used them, even though I would have prefered not to. That's not hypocritical.

Btw, I never "decried" the use of traffic bots. I shouted for getting rid of them. Decrying is judgemental (I think), and I never judged them to be in any way wrong.

Is there no end to your "mistakes"?

But they are not traffic bots

Not being a jerk here but I quite honestly dont remember a time since I have been in SL where there WERE only 100% legitimate traffic businesses.

When traffic was determined by voting boxes people organized huge caravans of friends to run around and vote at thier places.

After that was so badly gamed the system changed to a supposedly inscrutable formula of time on a parcel per avatar. People would then PAY people to come to their plots for the requisite 7 Minutes. Eventually we had the birth of moneyballs, fake events, and camping.

Enter the modern time and the opensource projects and we got bots.

The gaming of traffic will never stop as long as traffic exists. That is my honest belief after almost 5 years in SL.

Oh sssshhh Darkness.....that would destroy a lot of "Mr Know-it-all" traffic arguments !

I dunno. While Sling may be incorrect to pass off her beliefs AS fact, there's no way for anyone, including Sling herself, to know if it is true or not. I know this and, as such, I don't buy it at face value myself.

Personally, the only reason why I think Phil was against running traffic bots was to be "trendy", or hedge his bets. If they weren't ever banned, it wouldn't matter anyway and, if they were, he can look like he was on "the side of good" via pointing it out.

It still doesn't change the fact that he was part of the problem and NOT part of the solution. You'll note that there is not a SINGLE post by him on the blog post discussing the policy back in March, and his claims in past posts in the forum appear, to me, to be rather half-hearted and insincere.

Even given your point about "doing it because everyone else is", he doesn't need to concern himself over it being called "cheating"; I mean, if that is the reason why he did it, who the hell cares? Everyone else is cheating! "Yeah, sure, I'm cheating. So? I'm only doing what every other successful business out there is doing to survive!". I mean, if all of that is true, why is he so concerned over being called a "cheater"? I mean, businesses exist to make profits, right?



Yeah, I can understand that, I guess. I've read enough of Sling's posts over the past year or so, and have seen some good points made, so I know she's more than capable of it. Maybe she's just trolling Phil because he is just so trollable.



There's no substitute for first-hand experience. People should make more effort to meet and understand more about the people they converse/argue/debate with in the forums. Forums are cold and impersonal, and so much nuance in communication is lost, plus there is almost always a lot of history behind why people believe and think the way they do that will rarely get exposure in a forum post. That's why I tend to take all this silly posturing, name-calling, etc with a rather large (as in ancient-Dragon-sized) pillar of salt.



Well, maybe it would have made more sense to ask for clarification of the answer that was given, rather than asking for another answer which you think you didn't receive. That can be a disconnect.

"Question?" "Answer!" "What do you mean?/Can you elaborate?/Please explain, I don't understand." "Answer explanation!"

.. is a lot different from ..

"Question?" "Answer!" "You didn't give me an answer!" "Yes, I did!" "No, you didn't!" ...



I am Life; I am Death. I am Light; I am Darkness. I am the Beginning; I am the End. I am the Sky above, the Earth below, and the Seas between. I am All Things; I am Nothing. I am Dragon.

That did made me laugh Do you really think that I believe I've been trendy in this forum? LOL. I've been on the side of common sense concerning traffic bots and traffic camping for a very long time. I don't care for your perceptions of good and bad. I only deal in common sense.

You weren't at the Future of Traffic meeting that I was at then. And you haven't read all my posts here on the subject then. The truth of why I didn't post in the new blog is because I don't like the usability of the new blog, plus I would have attracted nasty posts. That's the truth. It was a concious decision not to post there. I've recently posted on the subject in the old blog though - and attracted nasty posts, of course. Correction: that was that JIRA.

Say what you like, but I take certain things as insults and that is one of them. Not that you didn't know that when you posted it, though.

Slavery is kind of an extreme example, but I understand the structure of the point.

However, you make it into a binary choice:

1) I have slaves and stay in business
2) I don't have slaves and go out of business

The fact of the matter was that, when slavery was big here in the US, there were plenty of businesses that didn't need nor use slave labor, and there were also many places (especially in the Northern states) where having slaves was not nearly as common, or provided that advantage. As such, the choice is no longer binary, but provides a myriad of other possibilities where I don't need to use slaves to stay in business.

When it comes to something like slavery, I can't find it conscionable for someone to opt for it, simply to have a "business". Yet, many people did. They found a way to justify it to themselves and others. However, NO ONE can honestly sit here and tell me it was justified from a moral or ethical standpoint to enslave another human being against their will to do their master's bidding.

Just because the slave owner justifies it to themselves and others doesn't make the act itself justifiable in a moral or ethical sense.

I'd even go so far as to say that gaming of any search metric will exist as long as there are search metrics.

For example, sorted directory listings of various types. There's a reason why there's a LOT more names that start with the letter "A" than normally encountered in the language. People want to be at the top of the directory where they get "prime placement". When numbers are allowed in the names, and sort before letters, people start using them. Then, when something like ASCII is used as a collating sequence where any printable ASCII character is allowed, you get names with ever-increasing numbers of spaces in front of them.

"Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others."

Whether any particular tactic is cheating or not depends on whether an unfair advantage is created, with the additional (but optional) conditions of self-interest and negative impact on others. Unfair advantage is pretty easy to define in terms of barrier to entry and using things in ways they weren't meant to be used.

Some metrics/orders can be gamed with little to no ill effects. If someone wants to name their business "AAA Furniture", that's just fine. On a sorted list of furniture stores, they will likely be at the top of the list, until a bunch of other people come and pick names to insert themselves at the top of the list. Point is, picking a name is the default, expected practice, has no barrier to entry for anyone, and the effect on others is minimal to nonexistent, since most people are quite willing to look at more important criteria than a name.

With other metrics, like picks, the waters get a tad murkier, since "paying for picks" starts to enter in the realm of "this wasn't meant for that". However, the negative effects are insignificant, since there is no barrier to entry; it is a metric that LL provides all the necessary access to everyone in order to use normally. It is also very hard to police, because there is not enough contrast between what is a "valid" pick vs a "gamed pick".

Next, we come to keyword cheating, this is where it starts to have significant negative effects, because now we have places using keywords for stuff they really aren't about, mixing up and confusing the search results. It definitely can be considered "not meant for this purpose". There is no barrier to entry, and policing it is also very difficult. The only possible way to combat it is through a deterrence policy, based on complaints from residents, which can become very messy in itself.

Now, we come to the various forms of traffic gaming. The negative impact is significant to severe, almost overshadowing, depending on the method used. In general, traffic gaming makes traffic scores useless as a search metric. The whole point of traffic was to show popularity of places, indicated by how many people spent how much time at a location. The more people present, and the longer each stayed, the higher the number. Like you say, it probably wasn't very long before people started gaming it, setting up various attractions and throwing L$ on the ground like candy from a pinata to get people to show up in droves and hang around. However, that was still really what the traffic stat was for; it didn't specify why the people were there, just that they were. However, it was ALWAYS assumed, in the design of the metric, that there were actual humans represented by those avatars. "Traffic" for the purposes of popularity in a search tool used by HUMANS kinda belies that assumption.

With the advent of bots, however, that changed. Not only is the negative impact from their use severe, but it injects invalid data into the traffic numbers, since bots aren't "people", thus the popularity the numbers represented becomes fake. In some cases, VERY fake. As such, it amounts to nothing more than a deception, a "lie", if you will. With a significant barrier to entry, severe negative impact, and the injection of false information debasing the metric, it falls well within the bounds of the definition of "cheating". Fortunately, LL has agreed, and is in the process of correcting the problem.

As for the other forms of traffic/popularity gaming, quite a few of them don't really meet the litmus for "cheating" or, if they do, are not nearly as easily addressed, or are as important.

No I am Spartacus....erm...um Darkness!

I am Ferret. I am the... oooh! Shinies!

suddenly I have the urge to script a bouncing ball with a shiney metal cover... that replicates till there are like 20 of them bouncing around a core prim ( with a auto-die if they get farther than 20 m fromit) just to watch the ferret and nekos go nutz

/me wonders if I still have that pounce attachment