Please help fight camping

I'm not trying to be offensive here, but this is unintentionally HILARIOUS. The reason people want to boost their traffic stats and ranking is to attract people to visit their place. So in effect you stated that you have no problem with camping for the sake of attracting people as long as owners don't use camping to get noticed and attract people.

So then for every one camping bot that sits there now, there would be 24*60/5 bots logging in and out every 5 minutes. This is definately not better, and probably a lot worse. Any time you have a measurable metric, there are ways to optimize it.

I doubt it would help, though. It's not that hard to create a lot of apparently distinct, legitimate payment info sources stemming from just a few actual funded accounts. It takes a little more work than setting up the bots themselves, but I don't think the trafficbot runners would find it prohibitive. So it wouldn't have the same positive effect as only counting premium members (which would actually be interesting data to me, both for shopping *and* selling). And it would have the perceived (by some) disadvantage of selectively excluding n00bs and those most in need of camping income.

(It's also true that any of the proposals that do away with traffic will effectively end camping and any perceived opportunity it presents for n00bs. We probably would do well to consider what incentive could lead businesses to employ more inexperienced people in some capacity--even if camping persists.)

The more I think about this whole thing, the more I like the idea of linking all alts to one account, and then only counting that account as a unique visitor. It would

a) reduce the number of trafficbots because they'd be pointless
b) return traffic to a *reasonably* ungamed process.

If someone still wants to pay real campers real money, that's their business. This would eliminate trafficbots, though, which is the real point of all this.

I like this idea, I would prefer all alts tied to one account anyway. However I don't see LL going for this because it would affect the number of accounts they claim to have ... another classic example of gaming the system really!

Only counting Premium members won't get rid of the camping farms. Annual memberships cost $6 US/month which comes out to less than 3 lindens per hour. People that are camping would still make a profit running premium bots. It would also convert some of the paid camping farms into unpaid owner-operated bot farms. Anything that can be proposed can be easily gamed.

Right, but is there actually some plausible way to do this?

I know you aren't aruing against the traffic thing. I'm just exploring with you right now I wonder. What about a special services tab on the search page with different ways to show those things (as opposed to products)?

I have a small local newpaper right here in Front of me in RL. It specializes in advertizing small guys offering services--and you know what--it is one of the most popular little news papers in this town.

Just a thought

I don't know, that's why I'm asking. Maybe a many-to-one table relationship to the primary account? Like, Oryx Tempel is my primary, and my alt (or alts) would link to Oryx as the "many" tables to the Oryx's "one" table in the database. Maybe use the avatar name, creation dates, etc as primary or secondary keys? There's got to be a really basic small table that contains JUST basic info on the avatar. Just connect those for each RL person.

Now, it would be a pain in the arse but this is how WoW works. This is also how City of Heroes works. You have one login and then you select which avatar you want to play with once you're logged in.

To respond to a couple other ideas that were suggested:

Alphabetical is a complete non-starter. Why should I be punished for choosing a business name that starts with S? I'm punished enough for choosing a money losing business that I enjoy operating.

The keyword suggestion is pretty bad too. We've already got that with the new Search All, and there's plenty of threads complaining about that. Anybody that thinks the Google way is the perfect way should pick up a book on Search Engine Optimization. A whole industry in RL has evolved to game and take advantage of Google's search algorithms. I'm sure there's businesses growing in SL now to do the same thing.

I'm not against the use of camping in moderation. If I go somewhere that's nothing but campers, I can leave. I like the traffic numbers. When you do a Places search, it's easy to pick off the camp farms from the top and go to the next ones on the list. I definately find the traffic number useful for my own purposes. I can instantly tell how much time people are spending on my land. If I miss a party at my place, I can tell how big the crowd was before I even talk to the hosts. When I go somewhere else, I can see if any camping is there and get an idea of how popular the place is by the traffic number minus 1440 for every camper.

The system could be better, but every solution that gets proposed seems far worse than what LL is already doing.

You know what I did once? I placed a classified and hired two nebies as sales managers
I gave them a few instructions about meeting cutomers and specific things to say about specific products. I let them work as they pleased as long as it was at least
10 hours a week. Sales really jumped for a while too.

I paid them well------I forgot the exact rate I paid them----but it amounted to about
1000 to 1500 L a week each.

Unforunately-----I noticed that they started just parking the avs to put time on the clock when I was'nt there, and not really meeting customers so I stopped it. LOL.

Still, I have thought about doing that again and might--I'll just pay better attention next time.

OK, Haravikk has already suggested a many-to-one relationship regarding alts and logins. This totally relates to that. Here's that JIRA link:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1071

We have classified ads that have a category specifically for services. But because the new search is basically a glorified version of search places, and classifieds are being pulled, it makes it harder for service-oriented places like NCI to be found when you put emphasis on the objects on the land. They would have to spam the parcel by filling it up with prims offering their services, which contributes to lag.

That's cool, but I think it was intended as voluntary: I tell them about my alts, they let me choose at login. Which is nice, but what I don't understand is how to *detect* that all those alts/bots are really the same account, if they wanna lie about it.

Hmm.

How about a one-time only login screen for all users requiring them to link all alts used by the same human being (e.g. John Doe with the email account [email]johndoe@yahoo.com[/email]) to the main avatar? Every user with alts would decide which account is the main avatar at this time.

For people like Brenda, who don't have any alts, the screen would just be a quick click through. The second she adds an alt, she's required to link it before she can login as either Brenda or the alt.

Obviously it won't dissuade the really intent traffic-botter who has multiple e-mail accounts, but it would catch a majority, I'd bet.

Creating an alt is the same as creating a normal account. If she doesn't tell LL that she's already got an account, LL will never know. You can "require" people to like their alts, but that's only good for people that want to link their alts. The only way to identify an account as an alt is to have both characters tell you that they are the same person, and even then it's a matter of trust.

This is meaningless because you don't register your company name

you could easily change it to start with A if that was your concern

or even AAA (followed by the "S" name)


Besides people since Phoenicia have known how the alphabet works they KNOW that the listings will go from A to Z thus they wont stop looking in the middle of the D's

It works for phone books. I don't see every business changing their name to A, just a couple that are gaming the system to be first, which is EASY to spot.

I simply think it would be the system where any gaming would already be easily recognizable by the vast majority of users even those on their first day in SL.

Right, but so if WoW can do it, why can't SL? LL would just change the manner in which alts were created, I suppose. It's a PITA now anyway.

I'm shocked. The more and more I read these threads the less I am finding my self against camping. That is as it stands in it's current state.

I'd prefer to see traffic eliminated altogether, but as I read I'm finding my opinions changing regarding those who have camping currently. I've talked to enough people to find that it works, plain and simple. You can like it or hate it but them's the facts.

It appears to me from the threads that those who are against camping are truly speaking from an emotional standpoint while those who are supporting it are speaking from a business standpoint. I guess it depends on your viewpoint of SL and I'm seeing no right or wrongs here.

As for me personally, I don't know if I'll have camping or not. I really want to be in the creating biz, not the camping biz. If I do it would at most be a painter or two or something like that which I think would be giving to the noobs as much as anything. I don't think it would have a significant impact on traffic but would probably be worth experimenting with. If someone chooses to TP out, it may happen from time to time, but I think the numbers show that it really doesn't happen as much as some here in the forums would imply.

I think Argos is correct that counting only Premium members wouldn't be much of a barrier; I honestly hadn't run the numbers before but yeah: bots would still be (much) cheaper than paying campers.

Hope somebody who knows the internals of WoW will answer how they force linking of characters within an account. In the meantime, I wonder if it would help at all to count any IP address *or* MAC address only once in a 24hour traffic collection period. This would entail some minor "false alarms": people who use the same shared PC, and folks on some cable network ISPs that share public IP addresses would only count once, but I don't know how many "misses" would result. I know there are ways to spoof both IP address and MAC address, but I don't know how practical that is to do frequently and constantly. I guess, even if it's difficult, it would be possible to set up a cooperative "bot network" of people willing to host bots for each other, servicing each other's traffic counts, but that would take a lot of coordination. So... I dunno if there's something there or not.

(I have no idea why I'm even trying to find a defensible popularity metric. I really think the whole concept of "popularity" is completely beside the point for Search. Some third-party publication can count heads and tell us what's popular, if we really need to know that for some reason.)

Of course it "works" for those places that do it.

Its basically a second source of advertising.

You shell out money for Classified ads to get to the top.

You shell out money for campers to get to the top.

Its not all that complicated.


Who it doesnt work for?

-- those places who have been developed to actually provide an experience worth visiting. Normally those would be high on a traffi list but because of the false inflated numbers they are lower down.

-- New players who want to go to the places worth visiting, based on where other people go, but instead end up at the places with falsely inflated traffic numbers. In other words those new players looking for something to do in SL.

It's all perfectly simple.

1. Search engines direct people to places and things that they want to find.

2. As long as people use search engines for that purpose, AND the results are displayed nn at a time, place owners who want their places to be found will strive to be at the top where the most people will find them.

It's exactly the same in RL as it is in SL. There is nothing that anyone here, or even LL themselves, can do to stop that. It's normal business practise in these times of search engines, and it's perfectly ethical and moral, as a bit of research will show.

One of the ways of doing it in SL is camping. Whatever anyone says, there is only one reason for camping - improving the traffic numbers so that the place ranks higher in the Places search than it would normally rank. Doing it to help new people is either totally false, or very rare. If anyone wants to help new people with money, there is no reason to make them stay on the land as camping does. Camping, in all of its forms (seats, pads, window cleaners, trafficbots, etc.) is all the same, and is for one purpose only - to cause avatars to be on the land, when they wouldn't normally be there, for the purpose of improving the traffic figures. Whether they are in sight or out of sight makes no difference. Whether they sit, stand, dance, clean windows, play guitars, makes no difference. There may be rare exceptions, but that is the purpose of camping.

Some people find it ok if people are being paid for camping, some find it ok if the campers are not out of sight, some find it ok as long as there aren't many of them, and some don't find any of it ok. Fair enough. We are all entitled to our opinions.

LL have been aware of camping for goodness knows how long. They use it as a plus for SL. They have also been aware that some people dislike it - it is frequently berated in their own blog, and they are frequently asked to remove it. But they don't do anything about it. Why?

By all means, get more votes for the jira thing, but don't expect anything to come of it. You aren't telling them anything new. I read here that the votes have doubled to 34 - it's not exactly a residents' revolt, is it?

I have a good solution, and one that I believe will suit everyone...

DON'T use the Places search if you disapprove of camping. If you must search places, then use the Places option in the All search instead.

I think that's a good solution

Info:
Some people think that the traffic numbers are a ranking factor in the All search - they aren't. The traffic numbers aren't used. Instead, they are used to produce 12 lists, and each place in the list is linked to. So traffic produces 1 to 12 IBLs to a place, and that's all. Each of those IBLs has the same ranking value as a single Pick in one person's profile, so they don't affect the rankings very much.

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