Everyone in SL should verify using Aristotle ;)
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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05-03-2009 02:32
Yes i think they should, but let me explain my thoughts
On the Slapt.me wiki we have a page called "SL Verification (Age & Payment) - Issues and Information"
This page has so far 2 dead peoples details on it that Aristotle recognizes. Please feel free to add others as you come across them
Aristotle only asks for "TRUE" information and *NOT* that the information is yours.
LL gets a token back back from from Aristotle to say the details entered are correct and is happy with that and verifies the account, based on the "TRUE" information given.
Now I do not know if you can enter information of a US person if you live outside the USA but I would imagine you can as Aristotle is just checking that the information is "TRUE" and not doing a geographical IP check on you or where you live in the world as LL says they do not send any personal data to Aristotle.
If everyone does this and passes this information to their friends, groups and anyone that cannot verify as they do not want to use their personal and private data, this will send a message to LL that system is flawed and as Aristotle claims not to retain the data that is sent (they just use it to check and send the token to LL) LL will have NO idea who has verified with data that is not their own.
So lets use the system LL has put in place to verify ourselves and then when/if it comes back and bites LL in the Ass later they will only have themselves to blame for advocating using a flawed system in the first place.
If you find any other names of dead people you can use please place them on this page for others to use also.
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Novis Dyrssen
Girl Geek
Join date: 6 May 2007
Posts: 1,452
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05-03-2009 02:40
Good one. I'm certain my deceased mom won't mind if I use her passport to verify. *whistles*
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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05-03-2009 02:46
I'm assumingit's still in beta and that when implememnted all those false verifieds will be found and kicked or all flushed as we all have to verify when it is implemented. I've verified 2 fictious alts using a hotmail address, all I had to come up with was a legitimate street address apparently, I made up random drivers licence numbers and random names to go with them. So when is LL going to fix it/finish it or replace itbecause it's currently not worth much more than an over 18 checkbox, credit card verification is still more effective.
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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05-03-2009 02:47
From: Novis Dyrssen Good one. I'm certain my deceased mom won't mind if I use her passport to verify. *whistles* I am all for using the systems in place to prove a point 
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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05-03-2009 02:57
From: Tegg Bode I'm assumingit's still in beta and that when implememnted all those false verifieds will be found and kicked or all flushed as we all have to verify when it is implemented. I've verified 2 fictious alts using a hotmail address, all I had to come up with was a legitimate street address apparently, I made up random drivers licence numbers and random names to go with them. So when is LL going to fix it/finish it or replace itbecause it's currently not worth much more than an over 18 checkbox, credit card verification is still more effective. Thats assuming that all the people that verified can be found as Aristotle just sends a token to LL to say the information they were supplied was *True* and apparently no data is retained they say, admittedly you using untrue/fake information then in my mind you broke the rules, but those that stay to the guidelines of the system then i doubt they have anything to fear  I would imagine though Aristotle owners could run a check on all the tokens sent to LL for fake data comparing to the real data that they may hold as in real street names etc. so those using fake data could be found out, whilst those using *TRUE* data wouldn't imho What will LL do if a huge chunk of SL has already verified using this flawed system? make everyone verify again? I doubt it personally, as they have enough problems as it is with all of this mess. They may however stop using Aristotle though and find another way, which may be better like a drop down etc. For some this will be giving the finger to LL and its flawed and badly thought out processes. Just my opinion though 
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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05-03-2009 03:35
From: Lord Sullivan Yes i think they should, but let me explain my thoughts
On the Slapt.me wiki we have a page called "SL Verification (Age & Payment) - Issues and Information"
This page has so far 2 dead peoples details on it that Aristotle recognizes. Please feel free to add others as you come across them
Aristotle only asks for "TRUE" information and *NOT* that the information is yours.
LL gets a token back back from from Aristotle to say the details entered are correct and is happy with that and verifies the account, based on the "TRUE" information given.
..... The idea has its attractions on first view. However, it's not a good idea for anyone who wants to keep their avatar. If it became know that the data of a set of persons was being publicised and widely used for verification, Aristotle could run that set against its database. They could inform their clients that a fraud had been discovered and that they were revoking the 'verified' status of a list of entities. Now, all that Aristotle have in the way of a link to an LL account is an anonymising code passed to them by LL. LL would have had to keep a record of the code that they generated and passed to Aristotle for each resident that went through the verification process. They certainly would have had to store it against the resident for the duration of the verification procedure, so it's likely that it's still on record - even if they hadn't had the foresight to plan for the situation. SO: LL would have an assertion from Aristotle that the accounts had presented false information. Result: Instant bannings. Anyone considering using 'popular' RL data to verify would need to be sure that 1) They don't mind losing the accounts with all their history, inventory, lands and cash 2) They are confident that LL can't link those accounts to any other accounts that they might have.
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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05-03-2009 03:42
From: Lord Sullivan ....... What will LL do if a huge chunk of SL has already verified using this flawed system? make everyone verify again? I doubt it personally, as they have enough problems as it is with all of this mess. They may however stop using Aristotle though and find another way, which may be better like a drop down etc. ....... Ah! If a very large number of people verify using 'popular' data, then the thing becomes mass civil disobedience. The Man can't throw everyone into jail. The Man could hit the organisers though ! Anyone sticking their head above the parapet has got to be prepared to take the shit that will surely come flying at them. I know this well 
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Novis Dyrssen
Girl Geek
Join date: 6 May 2007
Posts: 1,452
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05-03-2009 03:53
From: Sling Trebuchet Aristotle could run that set against its database. Actually, that would be going against their and LL's very own statement that NO track of the data is kept. They can't check against databases they're not allowed to keep.
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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05-03-2009 04:02
From: Lord Sullivan Thats assuming that all the people that verified can be found as Aristotle just sends a token to LL to say the information they were supplied was *True* and apparently no data is retained they say, admittedly you using untrue/fake information then in my mind you broke the rules, but those that stay to the guidelines of the system then i doubt they have anything to fear  I would imagine though Aristotle owners could run a check on all the tokens sent to LL for fake data comparing to the real data that they may hold as in real street names etc. so those using fake data could be found out, whilst those using *TRUE* data wouldn't imho What will LL do if a huge chunk of SL has already verified using this flawed system? make everyone verify again? I doubt it personally, as they have enough problems as it is with all of this mess. They may however stop using Aristotle though and find another way, which may be better like a drop down etc. For some this will be giving the finger to LL and its flawed and badly thought out processes. Just my opinion though  If I remember rightly all they did wask ask residents to test the beta system, so reverifying seems very possible to me, perhaps if we prove how flawed it is then LL will get someone better to do the job properly, and well if they want to ban or cancel the verification on my falsly verified alts, no problems I can't even remeber their names or even the hotmail account details now anyway let alone their passwords to ever use them again they were setup purely to test the verification system, one has never even logged in 
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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05-03-2009 04:16
Of course there is also the fact one of the biggest reasons it stays in beta is: check the number of lindens that were able to verify using their data....
That is right, they know the system can not verify a lot of users unless they use false data... hence the sudden "we will also use payment info on file to consider you an adult..."
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
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Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
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05-03-2009 04:16
What is so bad about Aristotle?
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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05-03-2009 04:17
From: Briana Dawson What is so bad about Aristotle? It is a data mining company that sells the collected data to anyone. Junk mail marketers, telemarketers, spammers, etc...
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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05-03-2009 04:24
Of course, some people might be reluctant to verify with Aristotle using phony information for reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not they're likely to get caught. 
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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05-03-2009 04:25
From: MortVent Charron It is a data mining company that sells the collected data to anyone. Junk mail marketers, telemarketers, spammers, etc... So who's had more junk mail since verifying, I haven't since I verified a around 18 months ago.
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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05-03-2009 04:26
From: Sling Trebuchet Ah! If a very large number of people verify using 'popular' data, then the thing becomes mass civil disobedience. The Man can't throw everyone into jail. The Man could hit the organisers though ! Anyone sticking their head above the parapet has got to be prepared to take the shit that will surely come flying at them. I know this well  OK i take your earlier point on the datasets people then should find their own, if they wish to use this flaw easy enough to do on google i suppose  To quote a part of wikipedia on the subject From: someone In seeking an active form of civil disobedience, one may choose to deliberately break certain laws, such as by forming a peaceful blockade or occupying a facility illegally. Protesters practice this non-violent form of civil disorder with the expectation that they will be arrested. Others also expect to be attacked or even beaten by the authorities. Protesters often undergo training in advance on how to react to arrest or to attack, so that they will do so in a manner that quietly or limply resists without threatening the authorities.
For example, Mahatma Gandhi outlined the following rules, in the time when he was leading India in the struggle for Independence from the British Empire:
1. A civil resister (or satyagrahi) will express no anger. 2. One will sometimes suffer the anger of the opponent. 3. In doing so, one will put up with assaults from the opponent, never retaliate; but one will not submit, out of fear of punishment or the like, to any order given in anger. 4. When any person in authority seeks to arrest a civil resister, he will voluntarily submit to the arrest, and he will not resist the attachment or removal of his own property, if any, when it is sought to be confiscated by authorities. 5. If a civil resister has any property in his possession as a trustee, he will refuse to surrender it, even though defending it he might lose his life. He will, however, never retaliate. 6. Retaliation includes swearing and cursing. 7. Therefore a civil resister will never insult his opponent, and therefore also not take part in many of the newly coined cries which are contrary to the spirit of ahimsa. 8. A civil resister may not salute the Union Flag, but he will not insult it or officials, English or Indian. 9. In the course of the struggle if anyone insults an official or commits an assault upon him, a civil resister will protect such official or officials from the insult or attack even at the risk of his life.
Yes I know that LL could if they wished blame me, but will they? I am not the only person that has pointed this flaw out to them, our lands in SL are deeded to the group which i part own with my wife, i just pay the tier and if anything happened to me, as she is not involved in this protest like me, she would buy the land back from the group and pay the tier herself. If it ever got to the stage where court action would have to be instigated i would have no hesitation in doing it either. However i do think all in all LL is not a stupid company although their methodology sometimes leaves a lot to be desired Would LL want to make someone that is pointing out flaws and suggesting that people prove a point to LL how ridiculous this whole plan is in its current form, a martyr to the cause so to speak? Especially as we all know how the Press loves a salacious story. As i have said all along, I am *NOT* against the plan as an *adult* content provider myself, just against the way it is being implemented in its present form and while LL do not give us any room to talk about it, sensible protesting is all we have left. I took Stream (The company that handled the Adobe CS/TS account) on here in Holland last year and in court the Judge complimented me on my activism in the workplace after our works council rolled over and let the management shaft me and my colleagues. Problem was my colleagues didn't join me in this action and 6 months later they have been royally screwed as they rolled over and let it happen to them so yes I also know what it is like to stick my head above the parapet. Lets hope though that through this LL sees how stupid Aristotle is 
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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05-03-2009 04:51
From: Novis Dyrssen Actually, that would be going against their and LL's very own statement that NO track of the data is kept. They can't check against databases they're not allowed to keep. There is just one single data field that is common to LL and Aristotle. That is the token that LL pass to Aristotle and which Aristotle use to flag back to LL that someone has presented data that Aristotle has 'verified'. Aristotle has the data that was submitted to them. They would be sensible to record the token for audit purposes. They are charging for the service. It is open to Aristotle to supply a list of revoked tokens to LL. It is then open to LL to take action against the accounts that generated those tokens. It would be sensible for LL to record the tokens generated for the same audit purposes. The token is the single shared key that links the entities for both parties. Aristotle say that they will store the data in a 'vault' where nobody, even themselves!, can access it without a court order. They would likely get one if they could point to evidence of an organised fraud of their systems.
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Maggie: We give our residents a lot of tools, to build, create, and manage their lands and objects. That flexibility also requires people to exercise judgment about when things should be used. http://www.ace-exchange.com/home/story/BDVR/589
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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05-03-2009 04:51
From: Tegg Bode If I remember rightly all they did wask ask residents to test the beta system, so reverifying seems very possible to me [...] That's not quite my recollection. Rather, they made a huge fuss about how one should verify during beta because they planned to charge for the privilege later, and that getting it done for free was supposed to be compensation for testing out the system. (Of course, this was before all the dismal failures in both the verification process and its inconsistent effects in-world.) Reports are that they've lost track of the status of some already verified accounts, but I suppose they could let everybody re-verify for free, possibly with another service. None of which would much matter, however, unless/until they bestir themselves to do something about all the year-old jiras of in-world IDV-based access restriction failures. --- FWIW, I wish there really were a way to reliably associate an account with a RL person and (more difficult) to know that the person is or isn't of-age. (And to know that two accounts belong to two distinct RL persons, for the purposes of griefer control and "reputation" features.) Frankly, I'd prefer that no content could be created or uploaded and that no reputation functionality (traffic, voting, jira entry, etc) be available to anyone whose RL identity isn't known for an absolute certainty, and known to be using only this account for those reputation-related purposes. Unfortunately, there's just nothing that does any of that reliably. And the fact that "adult" access is to be granted on the basis of payment info makes the whole thing a complete sham. So, I suppose faking IDV data is pretty innocuous, if both redundant and a bit shameful.
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Cal Kondo
Low impact
Join date: 7 Oct 2006
Posts: 143
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05-03-2009 05:43
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't get what positive result a whole lot of people falsely verifying would achieve.
Here's my guess of possible outcomes in order of probability.
1. Nothing 2. Aristotle would be removed as a verification option leaving those who do not wish to use a credit card no alternative. 3. Some more onerous verification system is put in it's place. Like turning up at some real world location with a passport. 4. Account verification is discontinued along with adult content because , well, there is no account verification.
Sometimes you do have to be careful what you wish for.
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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05-03-2009 05:52
From: Tegg Bode I'm assumingit's still in beta and that when implememnted all those false verifieds will be found and kicked or all flushed as we all have to verify when it is implemented. If Aristotle ever admits that they have any way after issuing the "Approved" flag to LL for them to "go back and check" the information that THEY INSIST THEY DON'T RETAIN, they will be opening themselves up for a major identity theft and breech of contract lawsuit. They asserted that once the check has been accomplished, they no longer retain the information that was used to verify. Just the flag value.
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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05-03-2009 05:57
all the systems can do is verify data given...
at no point can it verify who is at the computer.
So in effect there is no real user verification, only data verification
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
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Boy Lane
Evil Dolly
Join date: 8 May 2007
Posts: 690
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05-03-2009 06:07
If nothing else, this has the potential to kill the whole Adult Policy implementation.
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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05-03-2009 06:10
From: MortVent Charron all the systems can do is verify data given...
at no point can it verify who is at the computer.
So in effect there is no real user verification, only data verification Which is why it is a waste of time and the "I am over 18 check box and want to access the smutty bits" or pop up is better for everyone as there is no verification that makes it 100% safe apart from a Biometric login to SL. So the sooner they realize this and go to a pop up/check box the better. Because then we as adults can make that choice ourselves. Especially once LL allows us to flag our parcels and polices it all better than they do now, I really do not understand why they are using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut.
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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05-03-2009 06:12
From: MortVent Charron all the systems can do is verify data given...
at no point can it verify who is at the computer.
So in effect there is no real user verification, only data verification Yeah, you keep saying that, and it's true, but it doesn't matter. The same is true of everything that doesn't require multiple biometric matches for access, but that doesn't mean we need to retire all ATMs because somebody might snoop a PIN and steal an access card. So sure, some kid will steal Mommy's account info and login as her. Too bad for Mommy, but for the rest of us that seems like an acceptable level of risk--*iff* there were some way to reliably prevent the kid from creating her own account. The problem is that there's no reliable way to do that, either, with acceptable cost.
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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05-03-2009 06:37
From: Boy Lane If nothing else, this has the potential to kill the whole Adult Policy implementation. 
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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05-03-2009 06:39
From: Boy Lane If nothing else, this has the potential to kill the whole Adult Policy implementation. I think not, since they allow you to use payment info as account verification.
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