Bad news of the day: They're thinking of merging the Teen Grid into the main one

Uh.... No, let's just not do that, m'kay?

The honesty would be in acknowledging that people lie and building a policy that understands that. It's not black and white.

Good job with the attack, though. Certainly zinged me with that out-of-context juxtaposition.

When it comes to that it is black and white.

They respond with a permanent ban of accounts where they lie to get in. Pending a governance team review and real world data sent in (in other words, you have to verify an identity on that account before they consider even reactivating it)

Most of the time, it's a simple deletion of the account.

Even after the user is over 18, and a paid subscriber.

Can I pitch a fit too about most of y'all being against change, even though I'm middle-aged, SL-partnered, and have sex in SL on a regular basis?

I don't see how a teenager taking a picture of herself has anything to do with the discussion at hand.

I also think there is a weird, negative, as someone else almost said, "racist" element toward teens and children being expressed throughout this thread that really has me in shock.

the honesty doesn't have to come from the LL side..just the rules..it's not their job to parent or dodge a persons values..
Kids busting into the grid and anyplace else because they can is no excuse for the kid..
if they had better values there wouldn't be all this worry over the grid merge..
the fact is it's lazy parents..
point anywhere all day long but it's on the users end when it comes to the right and wrong on sneaking onto an adult grid..
i bet if them and their parents were held accountable for it rather than the people on the grid or sl ..you would see a lot less of these kids sneaking on..

oh i can get on so it's not my fault..bleh..
common sense says it's all their fault and their parents..

It is a good demonstration of just what legal issues that are being brought up and concern those of us that can see more than the shiny idea.

I wouldn't mind teens on the main grid, provided they only were legit with a signed and notarized waiver from the parents/guardians. Hard copy, not a digital sign up sheet. That basically waives the right to bitch and moan about anything they encounter on the main grid.

But it still leaves the adults at risk of a grief attack with a false AR about trying to get them to do something, or even by simply sending them a picture of their underage self.

That is one big reason for pointing out how a picture can suddenly ruin a life even though the boyfriend never asked for it.

I'd love to see an open discussion some time in the future relating to this kind of a question: "How can we provide an outlet for teens in second life that is safe and legal?" rather than the popular debate: "Should we merge the grids?" The sound of "merge grids" is known to cause screams and anguish... and the huge drawn out threads like this one, where people argue for pages about legal rights and the morals of parents, myspace lawsuits, endless "what if?"s, and contrived examples of things LL just might do that will ruin second life.

I think Linden Labs created the teen grid because it seemed like the best solution for including teens at the time. But the problem is that the grid hasn't taken off, and teens who play there are getting extremely frustrated and leaving, or bored and quitting.. Teens should continue to be a part of Second Life . LL is trying to figure out a new/better/safe way to go about doing that as their long term goal. I guess that's a horrible idea.

I havent seen any "weird, negative ... almost "racist" elements in the postings on this topic. I HAVE seen concern for teh adult's privacy and for teh children's safety. In all this, I have seen a question of security and worry over the potential problems we may face. I admit I dont have children in my real world so I cant speak as a parent BUT my career depends often upon teh youth-culture and I am very worried that a place I chose for convenient pleasure and privacy is liekly to be threatened in some part by much younger people who may not be fully cognizant of consequences of their actions. I am definitely NOT a "people person" at teh best of times and certainly dont wish to encourage a friendship with a teen in sl. I will avoid it for teh same reasons I avoid teens in my private real life - guarded security against potential problems. I speak on a personal basis here BUT I bet I speak for practically everyone else who has commented in this thread opposing a teen populations in sl.

If you want shock, well, let me tell you what teens can get up to when their parents arent around and the teens themselves actually believe THEY are acting maturely and responsibly ...

This is as open a discussion as we can get. We HAVE come up with solutions. Provide ONE definite answer as to why we should allow teens on teh grid. What will they provide that we dont already have? Why should we really give a toss about what a bunch of teens wants as a form of entertainment or enlightenment? I am NOT far removed from teenage years that what I say should be considered invalid. If a teen is bored go to a concert, learn to drive, watch a movie, do homework, do community service, talk to grandma, help mum with the washing-up. Hey, here's an idea ... go to a local hospital or old age home and listen to people with real issues and problems. Don't depend on sl for your home away from home. Seriously, put your talents and your strengths and positive energy to helping in teh real world.

I agree I don't think anyone is *racists* towards the idea. It's more of a how can it be done with minimal risks to all involved. I dont think it can at this point. There is too much on the main grid teens should NOT be seeing. I am a parent and dont want to be interacting with kids on sl. thats why i come to sl to get away for a while from teh madness of youth. lol.
I think adding a safe place for teens to explore or interact with their parents is a good idea. It just needs to be thought out carefully and all the consequences for all involved realized.

I speak on a personal basis and for the small population of honest teens who continue to play on TSL. I created a teen grid account in 05 when I was fifteen. I am a creative person and second life has been a source of enjoyment and income for me. SL has allowed me to grow artistically and learn about things I probably never would have looked into before. (3d modeling, textures, graphic design, architecture, business) Because I was allowed to be a part of second life, I am paying my college tuition with money I made from my business here. I am majoring in entertainment arts (planning to study cg animation), and what I've done within SL has prepared me in a lot of ways.

Why should second life be purely limited to adult enjoyment? There are the goods and bads in both age groups. If LL can figure out a way to allow teens and adults to play SL in a safe legal way, why shouldn't we be working to help them?



I didn't see this when I posted. I think my above answer pretty much explains the reasoning behind my view on the subject. My talents and strengths included being an artist, being creative. I could do that, learn, and make money for my future (far more than working at some fast food restaurant) in Second Life. SL has given me great opportunities. I've grown as an artist. I have security for my future.
Teen's can benefit from this world a lot more than shallow minded people would like to believe.

That's all well and good. Obviously you see sl as a means of employment. Personally I dont but good luck to you in that regard. Despite your arguments I still dont accept idea of a teenager on the maingrid who may endanger an adult who could be compromised by a teen. Shallow-minded? No. sailing in shallow waters means keeping an eye out for shoals and reefs. Shallow waters are dangerous waters.

But good luck to you. I was working at what I love when I was 16. I learnt two major things - humility and listen to adults who knew teh industry better than I did. Still doing it. Hope life treats you well.

Thanks for the good luck Jig. All my crazy ramblings before that post were pretty much a different way of saying "what are other options that don't include merging the grids that would improve upon the situation for teen SL players?" Im not for teens running rampant on the main grid. In fact, they don't have to be on the main grid at all... But that doesn't mean we can't find ways for them to be apart of the SL community/economy/etc. in other ways.

Schools can't buy sims on the TG, educators can't in general get on TG,
educational vendors and other commercial entities can't get on the TG...


IBM does not offer their grid for use to schools; not sure what you're thinking there. I am pretty well acquainted with what computational resources are available at major universities in the US.


Under the scenario I described, to which you are responding, I indicated that the school systems (which is to say, the Government, in most cases) would be doing the identity verification. As the Government does not operate Myspace, I don't see the analogy of exposure you are referring to.

No you haven't. People have been coming up with as many reasons as they can to justify NOT having teens on the grid. Very little creativity has been put into options that could let them in safely.

And your comment that teens should be out doing more 'productive' things with their time is incredibly insulting and gives a tone of 'go away little child, I don't want to deal with you.'

:/

To again get my bias out in the open here, I personally would like teens and adults to be able to interact under mutually safe conditions in Second Life without sacrificing existing usage and content, nor precluding future uses of the platform that may not be suitable for mixed-age participants.

Given that LL is discussing this internally, this thread is kind of a "dry run" for comments and suggestions to LL whenever they start talking publicly about it. (Maybe some are even watching, but especially in a thread this long, I wouldn't expect so.)

Having read every post in this thread, I feel it might be useful to have a concise, systematic listing and analysis of the challenges and opportunities, and of steps that might address the challenges and maximize the opportunities. This might be used to communicate with LL directly, to help inform their internal discussions.

It's just no use denying that there are potential benefits, nor in wishing away the problems.

I really don't think I'm the right person to summarize this subject. Yes, I'm being lazy, but I was singularly unsuccessful doing that on a different subject (yeah, OpenSpaces, to my eternal regret), and in this case I find myself getting too overwhelmed by the risks to do justice to the potential rewards.

But I think this is an important subject, and such an analysis could be a constructive contribution if someone felt up to it, either in this thread, or in a wiki page for shared input, or even a jira if it can be both complete and concise from the start.

There is a bit of a problem here. They merge the grid, ok, but will that grid also compensate for the extra logins that will occur?

Probably, I dunno.

But as for child safety? yeah, issues issues!!

The age verification will be loaded then. Only age verified avatars will be able to go to mature sims. Any sim that displays as mature content must be blocked from teen grid users. Maybe not even show up in searches "include mature parcels" in search will be unavailable to them, and on the map they won't even see the mature sims.

I think that's the only way to keep children from going to scary places. otherwise they will be curious. If they see a sim they aren't allowed into. What do children do?

Exactly, fraud and try and attempt until they get in. Children always do what you forbid them. And motivated as they are to complete doing what they aren't allowed to.

Forbid a child to eat brussel sprouts, and they will fight you for it. Give it to them, and they won't even try it.

Child logic is simple. Just invert your own.

Umm they can, provided they go through a lot of hoops for every person on staff that will be accessing the teen grid. Things like a background check and others. Read the thread, there is one here who explains it better from them looking into doing just that.



No, but a good sized university/school can run their own grid with full control. Especially the larger non-government ones. and even the government run ones can if they show a good reason get an extra server to run a small grid.



Best way for them to do that is to run a grid themselves.

The exposure is because LL is not a government entity. It like many schools in the US is a private entity, as such is open for lawsuits like myspace is.

It's called pointing out the reality check associated with the idea.

Just because an idea is all bright and shiny does not mean it's a viable idea.

Insulting to whom? Why should I (as a NON-parent) have to deal with this issue? I chose NOT to have children. I don't require the birth process to be validated as a woman - as a person, even. I have pointed out options. You may not like them, but I truly dont believe that an ADULT sl world is teh place for a younger clientele. I (and many like me) dont wish to mingle with teens in sl. Yes, I mingle with them in reality and - you know what? - I speak to them as if they were adults (yes, 4 letter words included), I treat them as adults by not pandering to their "needs", but I promote and support their burgeoning adult needs, I support educational programmes that try to provide an outlet for inner-city teens and I actually employ them when I can. As Ratso Ritzo said in "Modnight Cowboy" - "Get a job". Well, I give them jobs. But, BUT, invading my private down-time is NOT to my liking (and nor to others). Wow, am I steamed!

I think that sums up my feelings.

We need a new "mixed grid" if this is going to be done.

As you say, it's not, that's why there IS a Teen Second Life.

They have already done so. What they haven't figured out is a way for them to do it together without compromising the adult's experience.
How about a way to ship content between TSL and the main grid? How about a "mixed grid"?

Technically speaking, the LL network is already handling both grids. A merge won't really hit that hard in sense of scale. Though... There may be a 6/6/06 style rush of new accounts. (>_<

Anyway... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Online_Protection_Act



Online services no longer have a valid legal responsibility to "protect the kids" from mature content. So, the whole age-verification arrangement is now (and always has been, in my opinion) a moot argument against the merge. (=_=)

My own concern is still over the people who "want" kids on the grid. (T_T)

You better not go to WoW then. I hears it's full of the little demons.

My question is. What is the problem with the teen grid that has them so frustrated? Are there functions that are not there that are on the main grid.? Are the building tools, etc the same? If not why can't LL fix it so it is a place they want to spend time in, including areas for adults to safely mingle for educational and aretistic endeavors. Or is it just a case of wanting to sit at the Big Person's table, even though the meal is the same?

They has to wear undies..............................