Bad news of the day: They're thinking of merging the Teen Grid into the main one

Only 400-600 concurrent users?

Wow that is low.

Why not just shut it down? I thought the market was much bigger than that.

Even so, Asuka, the presence of ONE teen on teh main grid could compromise our safety. I admit that engaging an avitar in a serious conversation is going to point out who is 14 and who is 40. If I am"interested" in a male, I will ask questions that point to intelligence, maturity and wit, but even so, a group of teens peering over each other's shoulders should manage to provide sufficient intelligence.

It is quite obvious that on many occasions "we" are NOT alone and teens in particular will get a thrill from engaging "us" in conversations and much more intimate pursuits, while with their peers (prolly in their bedrooms and basements - ew).

Sorry, parents, there's no way around this. You may cherish your sons and daughters BUT I (and many many others) dont want to. Keep them out for as long as possible.

My thoughts in a nutshell: One of the most insane ideas as of yet.

Let's start at the top. We have a decent server latency as it is on peak load times. Do we have to make things worse and cause further instability by adding pedo freaks and 5000 more FBI agents trying to blend in? Yes, more.. common sense says we already have some on the grid due the nature of the medium for fast dissemination of information. (I'll build the FBI gear, for comedic value.)

Do we really want younger ones roaming the other areas where we know that those looking to make $L will open PG areas that any can roam in, regardless of the content that may be there? This is assuming that the sim owner is totally irresponsible, and well.. we know this occurs as it's already been done quite a few times over. That said, if the age verification comes into play on a grand scale.. and we'll assume, for a moment, that every sim owner is responsible... Linden Labs loses alot of their teen base due to teens being severely limited, detracting from their current sim experiences on the teen grid.

That is not something they want, I don't believe.. unless they're trying to condense and cut down on network overhead in the way of finances, resources, and staff. At that point, they are just moving things around user-wise, and grid stress-wise, not really affecting much except for perhaps a few less servers in the cluster. If that occurs, the sims that'd be imported will either stress our current grid infrastructure, or they'd stay on their own machines, changing nothing. A solid decision to just pull the teen grid completely would be much more viable in the big picture, should they want the teen grid 'gone'.

I am completely against a merger, as we have enough griefers and those who like to cause chaos without adding younger ones who -may- (I will not say will, as I am sure some could be mature enough to handle it, should it roll out), cause a headache.

I can not, for the life of me, think of any legitimate reason to merge the grid and still have things mostly sane. I've read quite a few of the other posts, and agree on all levels. My vote is a firm no, without question.

Durante-

Im not saying that legal issues aren't a major concern. The big threat will probably come from teens who already play on the mg right now that will be given permission to be there. (Right now everyone has the "they aren't supposed to be here" excuse.)

I'm not for a complete grid merger where teens just run rampant, but something needs to be done about teens and second life. The "teen grid" solution hasn't been able to keep many teens away (hence the really low number of players). What else can we do to include teens in on SL in a safe way? because no matter what they are going to create accounts. What's the best way we can allow them to do that? I say lets think up some new creative solutions that may work better than the teen grid, instead of having panic attacks about what linden labs will do.

These usage figures would explain why they do not want to expend the resources for maintaining a separate grid, separate inventory/asset database, set account system, etc...

close the door on free accounts and make it cost them something..cause most teens i know are broke lol
ok that was a joke..

If LL decides to let 13 to 18 year old kids on the grid and there is the threat of them getting a hold of adult content and they think it will back lash on them ..you can bet that content won't be here before they make the merger..

Teens already being on the grid has nothing to do with it..they snuk on and LL won't get hit with anything when they do that..

it's never been a compromise before so i'm not counting on one now..
we can come up with ideas until we are blue in the face or think we are important enough that we are gonna have some kind of say in the matter..
we're not..

In my opinion they are gonna make it as safe as possible and if adult content is what is stopping that in their eyes then that is what will go away..

i think they would make more room for a younger generation than pacify an older generation..

it would depend on how far into the future they are looking or if they never stop looking into the future...

killing off the sex industry is in no way gonna kill off SL..it may feel some pain for awhile like it did with other major changes but it's not gonna kill it..

like it was said earlier in this thread some place..all the people coming into the grid that were new would not even miss what was not there because they were not here when it was..
LL could move this grid in any direction it wanted and it would change is all..

i just see everyone saying LL is gonna have to do this or that when it is us that are gonna be the ones that have to do this or that..Because LL is gonna do what they want to do..
no matter how many get mad about it..if we decide we don't like the changes and leave..Another comes into SL to fill the spot...

it's the way it's been in the past i don't see why they would change their ways with any other moves they are going to make in the future.

Like everyone else..this is just my opinion..

There has to be a creative solution - I agree. I look at the latest blog from Lindens about teh Education Faire and teh number of companies who are obviously investing time and money into sl for "education purposes" and I think "well, I can't blame Lindens - education is a mega-industry.

Perhaps one solution to is COMPLETELY open up sl. That is - "you pays your money - you takes your chance". As in real. The sl world is moving faster than we realize. Of course law enforcement is peeking at us. So are industries. This is a cheap way to expose your product to a global market. I know a little about that side of things and agree with Lindens on that methodology to market sl.

I tend to trust to teh good judgement of us in sl - Most of us have decent hearts even if we dont like each other when we meet. This is a relatively safe place for teens to "cut their teeth" on experience and, frankly, if I were a parent, I would be far happier seeing my son or daughter in sl than on so many web sites and games that shriek violence. Most people here ARE responsible but we cant protect teens from nudity, salacious advertising, even sex in our REAL world let alone this world. I have always promoted a free society in sl with art as my basis - I have been shouted down often for supporting nudity in galleries that are accessible to everyone, more freedom of expression in many many ways. I fear the tumbrils will be rolling even faster as our days roll by. Education will probably be American in its philosophy and intent. I am not certain that is such a great idea.

The question of teens in sl goes beyond "Sex and the Sim". Its about the whole credo and concept of sl itself. I fear for freedom of expression and the arts. I fear for those of us partnered and in love. Its gonna be hard on so many of us who play here. My thoughts and feelings on education? I ran away from school when I was 16. To paraphrase Huck Finn, they aimed to civilise me and I ain't going back.

Snowcrash's version of the metaverse and the real-life definition aren't the same thing.

The internet was not built by porn, the infrastructure is deeper than that -even if porn was a catalyst. The nature of the web is communication, smut is epiphenomena.

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Is it wrong for LL to want to expand SL, to compete with OpenSim? Everyone is getting so huffy over "kiddies" coming into SL and destroying their precious delicate world. By not acknowledging that minors are already on SL undercover in the thousands --by ignoring the nature of digital "identity" all the nay-sayers are the ones being immature.

I joined SL when I was 17, all I had to do was lie. There is nothing anyone can do to stop that --short of destroying SL's ease of access/use.

Free Second Life, bring it to the same level as the web. I want browser integrated viewers, SL regions linked to opensim hypergrid regions, etc. All that is not even possible if a strict "big kids only" policy is maintained by LL.

And if you (you must be fairly young judging by your confession of being 17 when first on sl )and those younger than you come to sl, will you swear on whatever you believe not to threaten, cajole, betray, grief, and - most importantly - not moralize or preach in the idealism of youth to those above 21? So many of you appear to be almost evangelical in your optimism for the web and techofeverish in implementing your plans for teh great scheme of things.

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There's no "real life definition of the metaverse". There's all kinds of people trying to come up with a real-life analog of the Other Plane/Cyberspace/the Metaverse/... but to make it workable it has to be something very different from the kind of environment that Stephenson came up with. Requiring a 1:1 relationship between space and requiring the visible presence of your (unitary) avatar in a single 3d space is a deeply fundamental part of SL... because of Snow Crash... and it's something that simply doesn't work for a real 3d analog of the Internet.

<comment mode=ha-ha-only-serious>
Porn is about as fundamental a communication as you can get. One might say it puts the FUN into FUNdamental.

Steady on. I'm almost 50 and I'm pretty evangelical about the web myself.

the problem is rl issues with the so called kiddies coming into SL

One, there would be far less freedom on a mixed grid that you imagine due to the legal issues.

You would in effect wind up with a SL that is the equivalent of the teen grid, but with the added bonus of corproate marketing machines moving in.


The older folks have seen it done, instead of the free SL you think that would be available you wind up with the AOL/Prodigy/Compuserve version of it

What if LL took tiny baby steps in the direction? example: Create a couple of PG sims on the main grid teens can visit. no private chat, no inventory offers from adults. Maybe use them for educational purposes where teachers can give presentations? or places for teens to sell their products-boost the teen economy? A tiny move like that could help TSL in more ways than you might think. It could be a huge plus for teens and educators while the rest of us can shrug and leave it alone.
I really don't know. Just throwing out ideas...

It would be easier to just make a .edu grid.

But most of the schools and universities that would do so have the resources and staff to actually run their own grids.

first off: Educators in SL aren't all private universities with huge expendable incomes. The sims I visited were aimed at casual teen players. A lot of teens favorite part of TSL were the open education islands (like Global Kids)...

Having played on the teen grid for so long, I feel like even the slightest/hardly noticeable/almost negligible connection between the grids could have a huge positive impact for teen players that not many people see. I wouldn't call it "merge" but a "connection". I can imagine so many ways this could happen (in a limited/controlled/non-chaotic way) while almost everyone else has this image of teens running rampant while mom and dad are on the phone reporting residents as a sex offenders. People read "teen grid" + "merge" plug their ears and start screaming "NOo!".

*sighs*

"Technofeverish" ideology is why SL exists to begin with. I was unware that being eager and hopeful about innovation was a "kids only" passion. I've met people just as vigorously interested in technology and culture that are 9 to 72 years old.

Additionally, did I say something offensive? Don't scapegoat me for others in an obscenely large demographic.



The legal issues of a mixed grid surmount to those anywhere else on the web, which is the point I'm trying to make. Tag an estate or independent region as adult and you don't have to worry about it, LL could even make it opt-out (All content is adult unless specified otherwise.) It all depends on implementation.

Except for the fact that as you pointed out: any verification is easily bypassed. Short of the stringent limits used on the teen grid. (and by posting on the forums that you lied to get in.. well they can boot you now still for it if anyone notices)

As soon as they allow anyone under the age of 18 on the grid, they lose the protection they have by automatically kicking the teens off the main grid. Because the main grid is adult rated, opening up the teen grid in limited methods is a far more likely scenario than the merge of teens onto the main grid (without a complete wipe and fresh start with corporate oversight of every thing uploaded and created)

That is the problem with allowing teens onto the main grid, it would die. And be reborn some corporate Simsville more akin to There than the SL that we have now.

LL doesn't lose protection because they could still have everyone answer "Are you over 18?" What's wrong with being honest and treating minors like websites do? (Unless you believe that Second Life, as a whole, is adult-only and content rating is impossible.)

Drop the facade of identity/age verification working. Second Life isn't a video game, it doesn't have a massive ESRB age rating. The more heterogeneous and diverse diverse SL can be the better, let each discreet asset (regions, estates, objects, prims, textures) be taggable. So both adults that don't want to view mature content, and honest minors don't have to deal with it. Someone being honest about their identity/age online is the only thing you can count on. SL users should be able to give out as much or as little information about themselves as they wish.
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Saying that when you allow teens to *honestly* coexist on SL would lead to the destruction of the world by giant corporations and political correctness is reductio ad absurdum that I cannot begin to fathom.

You keep comparing SL to the web... which is absurd due to one thing: the web is not centralized. SL is centralized under a single entity.

That is why the web can be so diverse and allow for all on it. Each website is a separate entity, SL is a single entity.

Edit: and you should do your homework, I'm the first to tell folks it's not possible. But that doesn't mean they can't use it as a reason to boot them off for committing fraud.

I think you are misreading what is meant by protection in this instant, and the fact is that there is always more protection when you keep what may be perceived a threat outside a moat rather than inside. Simply put, there IS more protection by keeping the grid into logically separate grids that you will not have if you intermix them with greater granularity. FWIW, if you manage corporate websites, versions of this issue come up whenever there are gradients of information that an organization wishes to share on a site. Not that one is worse than the other, but pretending that there isn't an increased threat simply doesn't meet the briefest scrutiny. OTOH, we always joked that the most secure network was when you locked out everyone but the IT people - and could see everyone's screen that was left on the net.

I do think that if LL is prudent, we will see one or two additional splash screens on entry - certainly I would have them - where each and every time you enter you say yes or no and confirm to being over 18. You confirm at sign-up as to the av's profile and then confirm each and every log-in as to the current user. Then you eliminate the one small loop-hole that an underaged user that clicked into a log-in screen that had the password retained could actually be in-world with never reading a TOS or ever confirming personally that they were over 18. Personally (as much as it would be unnecessary in my household and would be a pain), I would recommend that they disable the retained password choice and force a full log-in WITH an age confirmation splash screen on every log-in. Any IT person that recommends the idea of retaining passwords or auto log-in cookies knows its just bad security. You deserve to have your fifteen year old log-in, buy L$ 20,000 and go out with a pixel whore if you leave passwords retained in a household with teenagers.

SL being centralized has nothing to do with the diversity of its content; there's this whole "user driven, do what you want to" idea behind Second Life. Additionally, tools for balkanization already exist: regions, parcels, estates.

I keep comparing SL to the web because I think the solution that websites use is eloquent in its honesty.

Change happens, and people hate it. There's a long history of SL users being threatened by any notion of their world altering, but it's called evolution.

(this is a double post)

Wrong.

To offer the amount of diversity that SL has under the central offices of LL it has to keep the underage out. Because otherwise the legal reality that you ignore will destroy the company. I've seen it destroy several of the original dial-up muds/BBS and a couple forums/message boards on the web.

Take a good look at how harsh others that mixed children under a central company fared. I mean look at the lawsuits that myspace/facebook had to deal with.

Consider that a teenager taking a picture of herself and sending it to her teenage boyfriend whom she has slept with has them both facing child porn charges.

You really do need to do some homework child, and look into what the legal realities are for LL and SL before you pitch a fit about us being against change.

We're against things that are suicidal. After all stepping in front of a bus is simply changing your position in the world to get a better view, we're just trying to point out there is a bus coming.

Wow, you're a 50 year old evangelist?
Just one joke in a VERY serious posting. I wanna get back to teh discussion ...

Because it's not a website? It's not even many websites? It's something fundamentally different from the web because it is built around the concept of "place", not around the concept of hypertext.