Virtual Worlds and Morality

All those porn sites (a page that shows real people with real genitals, oh my, not cartoons!) can be accessed just by clicking "yes I am over 18, yadda yadda, take me in". All that is needed is legal coverage. No age verification system will ever keep any minor from accessing the content if they really want to. Just use your daddy's ID. (But that isn't the responsibility of the provider anyway, it is the parents'.)

I don't think I was quite clear...sure, minors would probably still sneak onto the adult grid, just as they sneak peeks at web porn now. That doesn't worry me too much, and it IS the parents' responsibility. What I'm worried about is predators having access to juveniles on the open PG grid that you propose. What will keep them away, in the way that the Teen Grid does now?

Exactly, we need to be protected from minors and if we can feel comfortable that LL has done a reasonable job in attempting to keep minors out then we can cyber more peacefully.
The current "tick a box if you are over 18" is bout as effective as a note on your unlocked front door saying "please don't steal my stuff".
I have heard of 2 cases where after xybering in SL, a partner has announced they were underage and demanded $L or they would go to the authorities. Neither of the 2 paid up, and nothing resulted, but doesn't mean it couldn't and people don't pay up.
Sure it could get chucked out of court but does anyone want to risk appearing in court on pedophelia charges regardless of how much proof they have of innocence.

Flagging is not enough. The distinction should be on the same level the teen/main "grids" are now. They are *not* separated grids tough. They just appear separated to those who are cleared for only one of them. An age verified SL user would be cleared for main and adult, while a minor (or an adult not interested in the adult areas) would be restricted to the main.




On the contrary. A responsible user of mature content should happily accept the possibility of age verification for their own legel protection. Sell that as a feature, not a chicane.



I don't know if such restrictions exist regarding the teen grid right now? If there are, just use them for the adult grid: Anything created on the adult grid cannot be rezzed on the main grid - like weapons, genitals, sex beds.



The other users. We, the people. The same way ARs are handled now.

I've always maintained that. And asked why if it's good enough for them as a legal CYA why isn't it good enough for LL as they show real stuff, not SL's cartoon porn and have never been given a good reason beyond "LL wants to show SL is above the run of the milll porn site" Well, in some cases, it isn't, whether you like it or not. The content is available, it is one aspect of the service, now deal with it and stop the hand wringing. If the I am 18 checkbox covers you legally, use it and be done with it. If it is not idealistsic enough for you, then just ban the content altogether. Put down your copies of "Snowcrash" or whatever visionary work you may be reading, get your head out of your TAO, and start tending to your product while you still have one with the benefit of the Market Share.

Why? Why why why why why?
I am not "Age Verified" with the Aristotle Spam Peddlers, and I am not going to be "Age Verified" with the Aristotle Spam Peddlers. If any grid requires that I be "Age Verified" with a company that is known to abuse personal information to take off my underpants, then they can take their game and shove it.

Once again verification raises its ugly head. I think Lindens realized that not all of us live in Main Street USA or UK or Mainland Europe and that providing required documentation is either dangerous / illegal or impossible. Wisely Lindens have left us to our own devices and, for the most part, we have been sensible.

But why does morality have to keep being dragged in to SL? I know I have had a liberal up-bringing but please, folks, lets get this angst-ridden issue a break. We have banned the obvious worst-case scenarios and - lets be blunt - there are some pretty immoral and devious behaviours that pass for "moral" here, from teh holier-than-thou, poker-up-your bum holy-rollers to mock-slavery as a sex-treat. Lets just give moralism a rest in sl or pretty soon its gonne become a minefield for anyne who is different from the mainstream.

In real I dont attend church, I have lived with a 56 year-old man when I was 18 years old woman, I refuse to have children, I drive a gas-guzzling SUV (a GIGANTIC thing). I gave up smoking and alcohol after rehab, I wear perfume even when it is clearly banned in places by idiots who claim its gives them snuffles (yet many still smoke like chimneys), I left school giving my teachers teh finger. Clearlyimmoral or illegal behaviours. Yet I am a "good" woman and a caring person.

Lets just please stop with age checks, immoral/moral warnings/ angst and behaviour expectations once cetian standards are met

By the way, I thought this (below)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monalisa Robbiani
Flagging is not enough. The distinction should be on the same level the teen/main "grids" are now.

read as "FLOGGING is not enough ..." Lol

Why do rules about how people should and should not behave need to be dragged into a situation in which people interract with each other?

I don't know. Good question.

Have heard anecdotally or have seen credible proof? And if they are actual cases, then LL should step in go after the individuals for registering under false identities, perjury, blackmail, drowning kittens, whatever. IF LL hadn't done away with some sort of verification upon signup, then a minor would have had to use a parent's' credit card, driver's licesne, bank account whatever to sign up, so now you go after the parent. As the service provider, it's LL's responsibility to make sure it's customers meet the guidelnes they set up. Not ours.

It won't keep a kid away from porn, right. (But a full flegded ID based system won't either - just use your daddy's card.) But it will cover your a$$ from legal trouble, and that's what it is all about. Age verification is not about protecting kids from adults, it's about protecting adults from kids.

For the same reason the teen grid exists now. I suppose it is easier to maintain that way than just using a flagging system.




No one would be forced to age verify. If you don't you won't be using the XXX that's all. SL is much more than that anyway, isn't it?

Just exactly what behaviours are people getting up to that are so provocatively dangerous to teenagers and adults alike? Yes, I can suspect what they may be BUT are any of us, as vocal members of sl, really in danger of this? Thus, do WE care? Should we care? No one else out ther ein sl is coming on and demanding integrity from all of us.

Let's STOP being SL's policewomen and men!

This has been tried - it was a disaster. I am NOT allowed as a citizen of my country to provide lindens with the information required. YOU may be in a country where it is BUT are you really prepared to let a private web-based company have access to sensitive information about you? I am NOT. But I like my "XXX" also.

None of those things are "immoral or illegal". I don't attend church or have children either. When I was 18 I did whatever I wanted, I was an adult. I wear perfume because I like it, not to annoy someone else. I've never smoked but I drink alcohol and drive an SUV, justusually not at the same time. These are all choices. Nothing immoral about them.

Even morality in the context of this conversation is really becoming legality. What should a service provider allow/ disallow to keep the RL authorities off their backs, and negatively impacting their business? People's moral beliefs can be easily accomodated by simply making content accessable only to those who want to see it, taking reasonable steps to keep others from just stumbling across it.

So how do you access web porn, let's just assume you do? You click "yeah yadda I am 18 let me in" which covers that page's owner's a$$ and you are good to go. And hey, what you see there are real people engaging in sex (ZOMG!) not avatar cartoons on funny beds.

Pussonally I am not into teh old web porn But I reckon those who are prolly dont come to sl to indulge their fantasies. And if they do , they dont stay long. Really we are a village of people who tend to notice kink far quicker than we are given credit for.

And what is defined as Porn? As a successful real artist I am always curious about that.

The problem is that the current Age Verification is broken, and has been since it was rolled out. The reputation of the company running it is a seperate issue, although importatnt as well. People have been able to verify with phony names, their dogs names, as Elvis Presley and Abraham Lincoln. People have reported being unable to verify even after submiting proper documentation, others have reported as being verified but unable to enter the few parcels that employ it. Something else is needed.

The other users will.

Just look at the witch hunt that is happening now against child avatars. If fake children are being "protected" by SL residents in such a strong way, one can only assume that non-verified accounts would be even more protected. Any slightest wrong behavior would result in an instant AR.

This is speculation though.

Just following Brenda, and in my country providing such required information is an offense under the law. Only government agencies can request that information and even then may be denied it.

I heard the reports from the avatar "victims", neither of them took it any further, I wouldn't either unless if recurred, they just muted the individuals involved and/or created new accounts.
And if a minor has to use a credit card or parents ID, it's going to keep out a lot more of them than a "please tick if you are 18" box every will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindal Kidd
What I'm worried about is predators having access to juveniles on the open PG grid that you propose. What will keep them away, in the way that the Teen Grid does now?



Hang on! Have I missed something here - we arent proposing to have teenagers among us are we???? If so, then I am off. I'll just email my sl partner (who is 64). I dont need to be a effing babysitter (edite dto avoid offense)
And before anyone start spouting off that some teenagers are absolutely charming individuals, I was one not so long ago and NO we werent at all charming.

You just stated otherwise.

[expletive deleted]. I've been hassled on a PG region for having a non-sexual group tag that could be interpreted sexually (but I had never up to that moment considered might be objectionable), and on another occasion for being in a cartoon avatar with no pants. I'd seen a picture of that same cartoon character on the wall of my daughter's pre-school... with no pants.

The fact that I had to replace the expletive I originally started this off with by [expletive deleted] because I've been warned for using that specific word in the forums before should just underline the point I'm making.

We are being a community not police, do you expect communities to ignore any behaviour they see as potentially damaging?
And if having someone you just cybered with announce they are underage then demand $10,000L or they will report you to the cops isn't damaging, not sure what is.
I'm sure after your RL name has been dragged through the papers and court system to easily prove your innocence, knowing the "tick this box if you are 18" will hold up in any court as a reasonable attempt to keep minors out. you would not feel worried at all.

You have to be kidding.
You think this witch hunt is keeping ageplay from happening in SL? REALLY?

Agreed. That's why I believe EVERYONE who signs up should provide that information, to LL only, at signup. If you can't, I'm sorry for that, but there is no inherent right that says you have to be able to use the service.