Virtual Worlds and Morality

I would like it if there were lots of virtual worlds, each free to choose its own rules, and people could use the ones they like. It would be a true competition between governments, something we don't get in RL.

Unfortunately, it's not completely practical, because VR worlds do have RL impacts.

Also, some countries have religiously or morally dictated laws that have nothing to do with protecting individuals (in a worldly sense). For example, in Iran, you legally can't sculpt human forms.

It's too bad, IMHO. I'd really like to see the result of an open competition between governments. We can still have it, within the limits imposed by RL. And Sl is pretty much as open as possible in today's RL, and assuming that US credit card companies matter (thus the gambling ban). It would be nice to see a more open one, but I'm not holding my breath!

I'd most likely choose the world with the least restrictions, but I'd strongly support the right of other worlds to have whatever restrictions they want. I'm sure many more restricted worlds would be most excellent.

I don't miss gambling, other than the revenues it brought. (Frankly, I'd rather gamble with 'play money' than real money -- but that just proves I'm not a real gambler. I'm more interested in the game than the money!)

I don't miss sexual ageplay -- it's not my style.

I'd rather live in a real world where these things can go on between consenting adults. (Not that they're equivalent: SL gambling was real. SL sexual ageplay was not.)

But I'm happy to engage in a virtual world where vampires roam lusting for blood (and occasionally annoying me), dragons fly and spout harmless fire, commandos run around killing each other, but for the most part, people just hang out and enjoy each others company, and make interesting things to share or sell.

1. Shut down the "Teen Grid". Open Main SL for all ages. Keep it absolutely PG and hence attractive for serious applications, be it business and education.

2. Create an "Adult grid" where almost anything goes. Enforce strict ID and age verification on this part of the grid. Only verified adults would be able to enjoy mature content with other verified adults.

This is the only way I can see SL being successful as the "next generation internet".

Oh, you mean, like the Internet is strictly separated, with access control when you connect?

That'd be a great way to drive people to OpenLife and other grids.

OpenSim is the next generation Internet, Second Life is the next generation Compuserve.

Well put.

See, that's where we disagree. Now, I'd be happy in a world where racist hate groups were banned. But in SL, where you get to choose your "race", racism isn't the same thing it is in RL. Personally, as much as I loathe racism, sexism, and so many other -isms, as long as people aren't infringing on the rights of others, I wouldn't want to ban it.

I believe it should be legal to gather and support things that "a lot of people would agree is just wrong". I'll go further to say that banning something just because "a lot of people would agree" is *just wrong*.

That's why I'd like to see a plethora of different VR worlds. There *should* be a VR world that closely matches your choices of what should be banned! And ther e *should* be a VR world that more closely matches mine. I'd probably enjoy a visit to yours, but I'd rather live in mine, even though I abhor many of the things yours would ban.

Ah, so you'd favor a world where people can easily take lindens from your account, because you can deal with them if they do? Cool, there should be a VR world like that! I'd shy away from it -- that's too open for me!

BTW, SL is pretty much anarchy with a fixed set of universal laws that are automatically enforced, plus a hodgepodge of judgement calls that LL enforces by bans and suspensions. That's not much of a government! And while I disagree with many of LL's policies and the lack of consistent enforcement, I agree with their overall goal: let things be as free as possible, without griefers, protecting intellectual property (DMCA claims), and continuing to survive in the real world (thus the gambling and ageplay bans, neither of which did LL do gladly!)

So it'd be OK if you had to wear an IBM-suited avatar to avoid being griefed by the PN?

Not exactly because the world wide web is not being surfed by an avatar that is tied to your RL identity. But in most cases, porn sites are protecting themselves using age verification tools while the rest of the web is open for all ages. So that sounds like a suitable solution for SL too.

The existence of an Adult Grid wouldn't mean that anything in SL would be separated or restricted. It would only mean that the adult sims would only be visible and accessible for verified adult accounts.

They don't. At least, I had to jump through several hoops both in SL and LCO to get my avatar name transferred over there.

The purpose of a government is to be the sole arbiter over the use of coercive force. One of the principal uses of that force is to prevent groups and individuals from using coercive force on others.

In SL, we don't need much of a government, because there's not too much one can do to exert coercive force on another.

If that's what you mean by anarchy, then I'm all for it. Just as long as my property and privacy are protected (privacy such as it is in SL, meaning what I say in private, not what I can be seen to be doing). In RL, anarchy doesn't provide a framework for these protections.

Hey, no doubt many would prefer a virtual world with visual privacy too. I have no problem with that. I have no problem with SL's lack of it, either.

Not a bad idea, and it does follow the model of how adult content is handled on the rest of the web. I do see one problem, though.

It's currently very difficult to get on the Teen Grid. They do this to try and keep out adult predators. Under your proposal, teen players would lose this protection, although they would also not have access to the adult content that so many people think would be harmful to them.

...which brings back the old discussion about *how* closely an avatar should be tied to your RL identity.

But if you talk about having better "zoning" within one grid, I agree. I tend to see it sort of from the other side, though; that the problem is that the current PG is way too restrictive. Everybody goes "mature" for fear of being banned for saying a swear word, let alone discuss actual adult themes (which, contrary to popular belief, is not necessarily the same as having dirty sex).
But it's really two sides of the same coin.

Ohh the impervious defense "I will shoot the 6 of them dead before they shoot me dead" line...........
They're just doing what's best for themselves really................................
Chaos is true freedom.

I prefer a world where systematic griefing isn't tolerated. I'll admit there's a fine line there. (Who's the PN, btw?) But the distinction here is that people who want to get together around an idea I find abhorrent is OK. However, their behavior shouldn't be allowed to infringe on my rights. It doesn't take a hate group to do that.

Maybe I'm splitting an unnecessary hair, and by "hate group", you mean one that is active in antagonizing others for some reason. I'm against that kind of thing regardless of the reason, unless the other party voluntarily engages in the battle (e.g., combat sims). That's why I don't espouse anarchy.

I believe in freedom of ideas, freedom of action between consenting adults, personal and intellectual property rights, and freedom from harrassment. But strongly I support the right for others to form alternate VRs with different visions and values. Of course, people can do this in LL, on private sims, but only with more restrictive policies than LL enforces.

Not more than is necessary to pay for services. Unless you choose to release personal information, you shouldn't have to fight to avoid being stalked.

No but there should be a flagging of the content within a zone to say whether it is adult or not and some reasonable measures taken to prevent minors getting where they shouldn't and adults gettinbg where they shouldn't too.
You can't stop a teenager under pressure from mates from taking your car for a spin while you are away for the weekend but you shouldn't leave the keys out on the kitchen table either.

I agree with Argent: this would kill SL. I disagree with Argent that SL is already "history", but eventually he may be right. It will either adapt or perish. But in any case I doubt we'd see separate grids.

In a subsequent post you advocate the equivlant of the current PG/M distinction, except that age verification would be required to visit an M region. Again, I think LL would lose too many customers. It also raises the question of content: is all content allowed everywhere? Or, if you buy content in M, are you disallowed from rezzing it on PG land? Do we have an "Adult" checkbox as part of object permissions? If so, who polices it?

You have an interesting idea, but I don't think it would work. If they'd started out that way, it might have had a chance.

If they don't take action, then I don't care what they talk about, but I find it hard to imagine a "hate group" that didn't involve eventually "taking action" in any environment where taking action is potentially possible.

Someone's tagline about it being possible to "code the ape out of the equation" seems apropos.

I think you read more into that comment than I intended to put there. Sorry for being brief and confusing.

What I meant is that SL isn't organized like the Internet, it's organized like an online service like Compuserve. It may be that the "Compuserve" model works better than the "Internet" model for virtual worlds. It may be that the "Internet" model is inherently better. It's too early to tell.

Well put. No, it's not just you. But ... I don't miss the ad farmers a bit! Can we get camper bots next on the list? Will that rob SL of more of its flair?

Thanks, I clearly misunderstood. I withdraw my disagreement.

Hmm I wonder how well that might work as a social experiment , a dozen sims, everyone has buildrights and parcel powers, money stored in prims, everyone can edit/take anyones stuff. Of course getting people to pay for the servers would be hard, have to charge eveyone premium or something to get in. Just for fun make everything transferable but nothing copyable.

OK, but then I ask you to focus on the real issue, which is harrassment, rather than the reason for the harrassment. Harrassment shouldn't be tolerated, though admittedly it's a very difficult line to draw. IMHO, though, the *reason* for the harrassment shouldn't be the issue. Yes, it would affect my sensibilities and my feelings of offense. But that doesn't mean those sensibilities should be codified into the law of the land.

Fine. But now LL would have to come up with a workable verification scheme. something they haven't been able to do so.

I don't think SL will be the "Next Internet". Just like the cirrent one that Al Gore gave us, that is not something one company or entity can control or regulate. No single one of these grids will be it. They will be a part of it.Spokes on a wheel, each offering whatever cotent and environment they wish. SL "could" be the hub if they don't stop squandering the huge lead they have on all the others. The place where most of us would enter the virtual universe, a Grand Central Station, if you will, and make our connections to the other grids. It's just my idea, but I do see SL becoming such a thing, corporatized, family friendly, where we will be advertised and marketed to by the Real Worlds. It may even have places that are more edgy and creative within, if LL can figure out a way to keep them from those that shouldn't see them, but I don't think any one grid will be THE Metaverse.

I approve of Lindal's idea for "Anarcho-Grid", so long as it has a Thunderdome feature.

True, but an open main grid would have to be strictly PG with anything else being up for an instant AR. Teens would not be put into some closed ghetto. The responsibility would be upon all of us. Protection would be even better I assume.

I stopped counting the RL minors I reported so far. Every smart kid is already on the main grid anyway and nothing is stopping them (probably not just because of the XXX but because of business opportunities). If the main grid was open for all, it would lose much of the attraction it has for minors.

An adult grid would not only protect kids. It would protect adults as well - and this I consider the main reason for implementing an adult grid. Unknowingly cybering a minor can have unpleasant legal consequences for an adult. If you can be sure that the only people you cyber will be verified adults, because the only place cybering is allowed is the adult grid, SL will be safer for everyone.