Here's a purely rhetorical question...
Say an individual, we'll call him "Nick" for ease of use, sets up a virtual "bank" with no real assets to cover debts...
Said "bank" folds, and "Nick" prints up a bunch of "bonds" to cover the debt. Everyone takes his word that said "bonds" are worth the face value of $1L
People start trading the "bonds" on the stock exchange, attempting to recoup the loss. Other people see an opportunity for profit, and buy and sell said bonds.
The trading value of the bonds goes up....
...then "Nick" prints himself a bunch of "bonds" and starts trading them himself.
So in effect, "Nick" makes himself a tidy profit speculating in the "bonds" that he printed himself to "cover the losses" of the original "bank"
What's to prevent this from happening?
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Ginko Bond ??? |
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Annabelle Babii
Unholier than thou
Join date: 2 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,797
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08-10-2007 16:10
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Brodsky Zapedzki
Registered User
Join date: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 337
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08-10-2007 16:14
Much more than that, he also owns about 8mill worth in SLCAPEX:BNT, about 50k worth SLCAPEX:AVIX, about 400k woth in HCB and much more. well thanks for throwing in those SLCAPEX assets (I dont know that SCALPEX releases that data publicly) that makes the bonds worth more than 0.10 The "bancrupt" ginko has now liabilites of 1,964,146 L$ monthly in dividents or L$ 23,569,760 annualy. yes and at the asking price now nicholas can wipe the slate clean for only 35 million Junk bonds usualy trade at a small % of it's real value. Ginko bonds at .10-15 are just not worth the risk, it's not impossible that in the future ginko will do some new magic and convert the class 'D' GPB bonds into new GPB bonds class 'Z' in case the current liabilites are not profitable for them  well for the time being the market seems to disagree with you: 9,153,964 bonds changed hands in the last 7 days at an average of 0.17 To describe the way they treated their customers beeing quite delicate on words: "worse than shit", i dont expect them to treat their bond investors any better in the future. and the more the bond is talked down the cheaper it gets for him. |
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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08-10-2007 16:25
okay this is a question about avix actualy since i'm too scared to look at the stuff on wse
 is it any better at investigating stuff? _____________________
I know the competition that will come along someday is learning from LL's mistakes. But do they have to make so many? |
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Brodsky Zapedzki
Registered User
Join date: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 337
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08-10-2007 16:29
you can only get listed on AVIX / SLCAPEX once you release your RL contact info to them.
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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08-10-2007 16:32
There is one possible moral and legal solution. Sell the bonds (if you believe there are issues) in the open market via the order book, where others have placed buy orders of their own free will. Donate the proceeds to charity, perhaps the Relay For Life Cancer charity fund raising efforts in world. Desmond Chang of Caledon has organisers in his Sims. Keep a printed record of the transaction. My belief would be that is acceptable morally and from a legal viewpoint you have not sort to profit from what you may believe is a fraud. First point, I'd not touch any money I thought to be 'dirty money' nor would I risk a cause I believe in, such as cancer research, to ever be entangled in such a thing. That's a decent sentiment John but I'm quite leary of it. Second point, responding to another post here... to have separate 'companies' one needs lawful separation of funds and proper handling of accounts subject to disclosure, determined by such instruments as articles of incorporation and proper accounting procedures. Without government backing, declaring 'Ginko this' or 'Ginko that' as separate business is hogwash, and there is NO separation of entities. It's about as separate as putting a paper divider between some bills in your wallet, chanting "ipso facto corporatum!" ... and declaring the bills on one side as a 'separate' business entity. Sorry, doesn't fly. It all defaults to personal responsibility. _____________________
 Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon! |
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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08-10-2007 16:38
i'm assuming the legal solutino to ginko bonds is like say when you are presented with a phony dollar bill. YOu turn it in to the appropriate people as phony.
In this case I would assume the thing to do is take all the information you have even though its pixels and send it into whomever investigates this stuff and report it. This is the moral thing to do and probably the legal thing to do. Converting the bonds to lindens and then to usd is probably the one thing one should not do. edit: I also consider that even though LL wont act on it they should be sent the info just as a matter of making paper. _____________________
I know the competition that will come along someday is learning from LL's mistakes. But do they have to make so many? |
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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08-10-2007 16:40
you can only get listed on AVIX / SLCAPEX once you release your RL contact info to them. Bonnie Prince Charlie 1313 Mockingbird Lane Scamsacre, Scotland Scamsacre is a new development in Clydebank, just born yesterday, and please use this cell # because I've nae got a landline... _____________________
Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon! |
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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08-10-2007 16:44
Bonnie Prince Charlie 1313 Mockingbird Lane Scamsacre, Scotland Scamsacre is a new development in Clydebank, just born yesterday, and please use this cell # because I've nae got a landline... yeah this is what worries me .. i want to know if this stuff is investigated to be honest is this business listed real in terms of SL or did i just open it yesterday and say its 1 year old. Do people actuallly buy their stuff (you could tell if you could see their acounting) or use their services. What assets does it have and are they being accurate (do they add up can they cover what they say they can cover etc) you know the numbers part? _____________________
I know the competition that will come along someday is learning from LL's mistakes. But do they have to make so many? |
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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08-10-2007 16:51
Here's a purely rhetorical question... Say an individual, we'll call him "Nick" for ease of use, sets up a virtual "bank" with no real assets to cover debts... Said "bank" folds, and "Nick" prints up a bunch of "bonds" to cover the debt. Everyone takes his word that said "bonds" are worth the face value of $1L People start trading the "bonds" on the stock exchange, attempting to recoup the loss. Other people see an opportunity for profit, and buy and sell said bonds. The trading value of the bonds goes up.... ...then "Nick" prints himself a bunch of "bonds" and starts trading them himself. So in effect, "Nick" makes himself a tidy profit speculating in the "bonds" that he printed himself to "cover the losses" of the original "bank" What's to prevent this from happening? well, except that he himself (Nick) has sated that HE is going to be buying the same bonds he himself has sold. it's very circle-jerkish if you ask me. _____________________
it was fun while it lasted.
http://2lf.informe.com/ |
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Adz Childs
Artificial Boy
Join date: 6 Apr 2006
Posts: 865
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08-10-2007 16:54
they might enforce repayment by wage garnishments until everyone has their last $L value replaced. Wikipedia: The Brazilian national minimum wage is adjusted annually. As of April 2007, the minimum wage is R$380 (~US$190) per month.[1] [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_law#Brazil CIA Factbook: Unemployment rate: 9.6% (2006 est.) Population below poverty line: 31% (2005) GDP - per capita (PPP): $8,800 (2006 est.) https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/br.html#Econ _____________________
http://slnamewatch.com — Second Life Last Name Tracking — Email Alerts — Famous People Lookup — http://adz.secondlifekid.com/ — Artificial Boy — Personal Blog
Hmm, there's nothing really helpful there, but thanks for pasting. |
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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08-10-2007 16:55
i didn't say it would be expedient. but i betcha he wouldn't dabble in banking, something he knows very little about, again.
_____________________
it was fun while it lasted.
http://2lf.informe.com/ |
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Andy Grant
Registered User
Join date: 20 May 2005
Posts: 140
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08-10-2007 18:25
well thanks for throwing in those SLCAPEX assets (I dont know that SCALPEX releases that data publicly) that makes the bonds worth more than 0.10 yes and at the asking price now nicholas can wipe the slate clean for only 35 million well for the time being the market seems to disagree with you: 9,153,964 bonds changed hands in the last 7 days at an average of 0.17 and the more the bond is talked down the cheaper it gets for him. Brodsky, i see you joined sl in march, i was trading already months back before you entered... just because you didnt know bnt got moved from wse, and you didnt notice that ginko made announcments back then on what they bought doesnt mean it didnt happen. As for your claim that market seems to disagree with me, i didnt mean it instantly, im saying what they arent worth, and the depositors will get more and more desperate to get their money out, ginko will be too unliquid to actualy do any serious buybacks... since you posted the market agrees more with me than with your "buy ginko bonds and get rich fast"-theory ... Last 24 Hours Average: L$0.15 Volume: 4,703,632 Last 10 Trades August 11, 2007 337,126 WIC$0.000549 L$0.144010 August 11, 2007 87,069 WIC$0.000549 L$0.144010 August 11, 2007 133,855 WIC$0.000549 L$0.144012 August 11, 2007 210,904 WIC$0.000549 L$0.144012 August 11, 2007 18,238 WIC$0.000549 L$0.144020 August 11, 2007 73,958 WIC$0.000549 L$0.144012 August 11, 2007 10 WIC$0.000549 L$0.144040 August 11, 2007 174 WIC$0.000549 L$0.144030 August 11, 2007 22,375 WIC$0.000549 L$0.144030 August 11, 2007 1,147 WIC$0.000549 L$0.144069 The entire last trades log shows that there were only sell orders, nobody is buying on market. I'm not posting because i want cheaper bonds, if i could shortsell them i would. I have absolutely no financial interrest in GPB, but i have interrest in educating people to evaluate instruments at sl exchanges. |
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Adz Childs
Artificial Boy
Join date: 6 Apr 2006
Posts: 865
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08-10-2007 18:34
The entire last trades log shows that there were only sell orders, nobody is buying on market.  _____________________
http://slnamewatch.com — Second Life Last Name Tracking — Email Alerts — Famous People Lookup — http://adz.secondlifekid.com/ — Artificial Boy — Personal Blog
Hmm, there's nothing really helpful there, but thanks for pasting. |
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Andy Grant
Registered User
Join date: 20 May 2005
Posts: 140
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08-10-2007 18:39
???? Those orders that traded in that Last 10 trades log i posted were matched to Bids... in other words that means that theres a downward pressure on the movement. The situation would been oposite if someone started buying out orders like: 1,001 WIC$0.000606 L$0.158898 1,145 WIC$0.000606 L$0.158899 77,303 WIC$0.000606 L$0.158900 2,721 WIC$0.000608 L$0.159600 5,000 WIC$0.000609 L$0.159700 5,000 WIC$0.000609 L$0.159799 5,000 WIC$0.000609 L$0.159800 5,000 WIC$0.000610 L$0.159900 3,000 WIC$0.000610 L$0.159900 3,000 WIC$0.000610 L$0.159900 It's always about supplydemand, and this is what i call Supply with a capital S while demand is hiding in the basement screaming for help  |
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John Horner
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 626
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08-11-2007 00:49
Those orders that traded in that Last 10 trades log i posted were matched to Bids... in other words that means that theres a downward pressure on the movement. The situation would been oposite if someone started buying out orders like: 1,001 WIC$0.000606 L$0.158898 1,145 WIC$0.000606 L$0.158899 77,303 WIC$0.000606 L$0.158900 2,721 WIC$0.000608 L$0.159600 5,000 WIC$0.000609 L$0.159700 5,000 WIC$0.000609 L$0.159799 5,000 WIC$0.000609 L$0.159800 5,000 WIC$0.000610 L$0.159900 3,000 WIC$0.000610 L$0.159900 3,000 WIC$0.000610 L$0.159900 It's always about supplydemand, and this is what i call Supply with a capital S while demand is hiding in the basement screaming for help Not so at the moment Andy. For every buyer there must be a seller, what is actually happening is someone or some people are prepared to pick them up for around 14. The order book looks quite healthy in terms of support. There are around 285,000 shares supporting the bid price, all the resistance is focused around 15, with no higher orders in the book. I am sure many of us could shake a stick and make an educated guess as to the buyer |
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Svar Beckersted
Registered User
Join date: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 783
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08-11-2007 01:44
Not so at the moment Andy. For every buyer there must be a seller, what is actually happening is someone or some people are prepared to pick them up for around 14. The order book looks quite healthy in terms of support. There are around 285,000 shares supporting the bid price, all the resistance is focused around 15, with no higher orders in the book. I am sure many of us could shake a stick and make an educated guess as to the buyer If you are suggesting Nicholas Portocarrero read this. http://www.your2ndplace.com/node/384 |
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Brodsky Zapedzki
Registered User
Join date: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 337
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08-11-2007 02:00
Either way, i have to give credit to ginko for being about as creative as enron, theres always a future plan isnt it ? Do you? I don't have any admiration for criminals and I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone on the forums that does. Anyway, what is the future plan Nicholas, I mean Andre.... err Andy? (sorry, I suffer from juvenile premature senility so I keep muddling ppl up. ) |
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John Horner
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 626
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08-11-2007 03:46
First point, I'd not touch any money I thought to be 'dirty money' nor would I risk a cause I believe in, such as cancer research, to ever be entangled in such a thing. That's a decent sentiment John but I'm quite leary of it. Second point, responding to another post here... to have separate 'companies' one needs lawful separation of funds and proper handling of accounts subject to disclosure, determined by such instruments as articles of incorporation and proper accounting procedures. Without government backing, declaring 'Ginko this' or 'Ginko that' as separate business is hogwash, and there is NO separation of entities. It's about as separate as putting a paper divider between some bills in your wallet, chanting "ipso facto corporatum!" ... and declaring the bills on one side as a 'separate' business entity. Sorry, doesn't fly. It all defaults to personal responsibility. Desmond I disagree with you on that one. There needs to be a fair solution for people who simply deposited funds within Ginko because “everybody else did”, who is not necessarily financially sophisticated, does not really understand how banks, or for that matter how stock markets actually work, and that just wants a simple uncomplicated Second Life without this type of worry. There are a lot of people like that in first life too, trust me on that one, I know from first hand experience. In the absence of any imposed solution by Linden Labs or the legal authorities in the very short-term future, I repeat my suggestion. If you don’t want to be involved in any more Second Life financial services of any kind, and don't trust Ginko bonds, sell them in the open market (WSE) to a third party willing buyer (the WSE system should ensure that if there are any) and donate the proceeds to an in game charity. I will let others have a go now. To me virtual financial services is an interesting subject to study to see if such a thing can or should evolve. But others here have different objectives within SL so I will not be commenting again on Ginko unless any new facts emerge. Have no desire to monopolise the BBs Regards John |
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Svar Beckersted
Registered User
Join date: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 783
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08-11-2007 11:33
the bank is gone he can't save it the only way he can legitimatly make payments is to liquidate assets. His bank is essentially out of business and the fact that people hold onto this thread he is trying to save a bank that is closed makes no sense. If he makes payments I want to know from where the money came from because he himself has stated "the bank is out of money" He wont reveal his assets which likely means they dont ad up and most of them dont exist. If he makes the payments I would say they would have been by manipulating that bond which is still a ponzi scheme only this time with bonds in fact its more like the original ponzi scheme he is only changing it slightly He can't or wont prove that the payments are being made from investing money because there is no money the only place this money can come from at the present time is to further perpetuate what is now almost looking like its morphing into a pyramid as well with these bonds. The bonds are backed by nothing the bank is gone the money is going to be pulled directly from the sale of more bonds he makes and then he will make his payments it doesn't give the bonds value and it looks more like a ponzi scheme then it ever has and now he is getting others to sell bonds too bonds that support a ponzi scheme... Wilhelm I want to know if you still feel the Ginko depositors should refrain from selling their bonds and thus perpetuating a scam? It seems Shaun Altman has continued buying them at a furious pace and he should know better since he has been trading SL stocks longer than any other resident. https://www.wselive.com/research/major_shareholders/256 When I last saw Shaun had bought up to 1 million, after the Ginko depositors got their bonds he has bought another 4 million. You might go ask him, maybe he knows something you don't. |
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Watermelon Tokyo
Square
Join date: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 93
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08-11-2007 11:43
First point, I'd not touch any money I thought to be 'dirty money' nor would I risk a cause I believe in, such as cancer research, to ever be entangled in such a thing. That's a decent sentiment John but I'm quite leary of it. If you don’t want to be involved in any more Second Life financial services of any kind, and don't trust Ginko bonds, sell them in the open market (WSE) to a third party willing buyer (the WSE system should ensure that if there are any) and donate the proceeds to an in game charity. Easy solution. Sell the bonds and send the proceeds to Phillip Linden with a notecard stating how much your initial deposit was, and could he please tell you where the rest of the money went. _____________________
Free eyes and prim sunglasses at the new Second Eyes main store in Plush Theta!
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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08-11-2007 12:00
Wilhelm I want to know if you still feel the Ginko depositors should refrain from selling their bonds and thus perpetuating a scam? It seems Shaun Altman has continued buying them at a furious pace and he should know better since he has been trading SL stocks longer than any other resident. https://www.wselive.com/research/major_shareholders/256 When I last saw Shaun had bought up to 1 million, after the Ginko depositors got their bonds he has bought another 4 million. You might go ask him, maybe he knows something you don't. _____________________
Read or listen to some Eckhart Tolle. You won't regret it.
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Gwendolyn Fonck
Registered User
Join date: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 99
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08-11-2007 12:01
If you are suggesting Nicholas Portocarrero read this. http://www.your2ndplace.com/node/384 That article is truly scary. "[17:24] Nicholas Portocarrero: People have not lost most of their funds [17:24] Nicholas Portocarrero: They will only lose most of their funds when a) they panic and sell [17:24] Nicholas Portocarrero: or b) my investments actually fail. [17:24] Nicholas Portocarrero: The first is under their control [17:24] Nicholas Portocarrero: the second has not yet happened" The total lack of remorse for losing the substantial savings of hundreds or thousands of people is interesting. Apparently its not his fault - it's their fault for being in a panic. And he expects people to blindly trust that his investments haven't failed - yet he declines to say what these investments are. And he wants to keep Ginko in business and repeat this all over again. |
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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08-11-2007 12:13
Wilhelm I want to know if you still feel the Ginko depositors should refrain from selling their bonds and thus perpetuating a scam? It seems Shaun Altman has continued buying them at a furious pace and he should know better since he has been trading SL stocks longer than any other resident. https://www.wselive.com/research/major_shareholders/256 When I last saw Shaun had bought up to 1 million, after the Ginko depositors got their bonds he has bought another 4 million. You might go ask him, maybe he knows something you don't. good for him if he wants to support a scam i dont care if he is queen victoria a scam is a scam is a scam. Trying to say that one avatar who i dont know either is truly any different then any other is (well nevermind) as I've said before if peopel want to take toilet paper and call it gold its up to them however where I sit I would not support wse any longer because of such decisions. The person who is going to finance those bonds is nic porta potty I'm sorry but the fact remains is he is going to use strange "secret" means to pay the bondholders up to them how dirty they want to get .. _____________________
I know the competition that will come along someday is learning from LL's mistakes. But do they have to make so many? |
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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08-11-2007 12:49
So, while I was busying wringing my hands about the ethics of holding vs selling, a thought finally seeped through my thick skull. Putting aside the ethical dilemma for a moment, the valuation of these bonds is another double-bind: either way, the original scam artist profits.
- If they go down, he can more easily buy them up and retire the debt for pence on the pound, owning free-and-clear any assets he hadn't already stolen in "salaries" and bogus "investments." - On the other hand, if they go up, he's just invented a whole new scam with which to attract fresh victims. It's all fiendishly ingenious... so good, in fact, that I'm led to wonder... How certain can we be that there really was a liquidity crisis at Ginkos? And if there was, how certain are we that it wasn't engineered by Ginko officers themselves? Now, I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but the first seeds of doubt were sewn by the matter-of-fact way the note to depositors laid the blame for the "crisis" squarely on the gambling ban--surely at most a tiny contributing factor, as evidenced by the negligible effect it had on the L$ exchange rate. I now suspect that the entire "collapse" was already planned and held ready for the first hint of economic entropy to provide the excuse. Well, he told us we couldn't imagine how complex it all was. Maybe that was a hint, after all. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-11-2007 12:52
That article is truly scary. The total lack of remorse for losing the substantial savings of hundreds or thousands of people is interesting. Apparently its not his fault - it's their fault for being in a panic. And he expects people to blindly trust that his investments haven't failed - yet he declines to say what these investments are. And he wants to keep Ginko in business and repeat this all over again. Yeah thats the Ponzi for you. If people had shut up and just let the Ponzi keep rolling, they woulda been fine ... Is the attitude. |