By the way, the name is Linden Lab

You do have a point there.

The forums didnt really start getting nasty until Prok started having issues with what he saw as favortism.

He would have had less ammunition if the Lindens and their reasoning behind decisions were more accessible.

History has shown us time and time again that LL is far more likely to respond to a pitchforks-and-torches mob than calm and easily ignored questions.

As I said, this is a monster at least 50% of their own creation.

To be honest, the first part of my post wasn't really intended to be all that serious. I realize now that it reads differently than was intended, which is generally why I tend to switch to "read only" forum mode when I've had a few. (the only way I can ever enjoy attending weddings)

I broke my rule last night

The thing is, they encourage suggestions. That's what makes it so frustrating - they encourage, but never listen.

I don't think prok had much to do with the current state of affairs in the forums, to be honest. She has very little ammunition other than a very active imagination, inspired by a small, incomplete set of facts.

I also don't want to paint with too broad a brush here either. For the most part, the community is still a decent bunch of folks. Some more passionate about issues than others. It just occurs to me that the tendancy of a (growing)few to take it over the line of decency is on the rise, and I'm seeing similarities between RA and LA. And we all know the fate of LA.

I'm afraid i can't agree with this at all, In my every communication with LL i have Posted a reasonably worded, polite enquirey, and received a Polite, and satisfying response (Even if it Doesn't completely solve my issues). The reason you MIGHT believe in the torches, and pitchforks approach is that Far too many use it as a FIRST resort when it should not be a First, Or a last resort. They Get a response, But they would get it Just as fast were they asking Politely, and they MIGHT find members of LL a Touch less grudging in their responses if they tried the courteous approach.
People are going to ask questions and they are NOT always going to be satisfied with the answers they get, but (Wake up and smell the coffee time) you are NOT Always Going to Get Your Way. Sometimes the Only answer to your question is the negative one, and all the Infantile Tantruming in the world isn't going to Change it. In RL i work in a Public Service capacity, and Far too often i have people (I'm Talking about supposed Adults here, People in suits with briefcases and everything) launch right into Stamping their feet, and holding their breath, completely oblivious to the Idea that it Isn't needed because I'm there to HELP them and their acting like a three year old in need of a nap really doesn't help me help them.


~Laughing~
Zaphod broke the "Alchohol, and E-mail don't Mix" Rule!!



Problem there was Prok Always viewed anyone other than him/herself getting their way as Rank favoritism

"Sarah: That's not Fair!!
Jareth: You say that a lot, I wonder what your basis for comparison is?"
from Labrynth.

Angel.

My own history with LL disagrees. I've seen simple questions go ignored when worded politely, and stay that way until there is a massive mob demanding the answer. *shrug*

I'm a polite person, normally. When I respect who I'm dealing with. I won't way LL has completely lost my respect, or I wouldn't deal with them, but their customer service liaisons have.

For the record, I was once where you are - insistent that it wasn't needed, that they were doing the best they could. It took the better part of a year for my views to shift to where they are now, it wasn't just that I woke up one day and decided I hated LL.

You're my personal hero du jour now.

It's all anecdotal, really. I have had a mixed response; not quite what I would call the opposite, but I know of others who have had the opposite experience with LL (some of them have even posted the silliness on the forums).

Sometimes, I get a polite response back; a lot of the time, I get no response back, and once in a while, I get a snotty or otherwise infuriating (and reasonably so) response back. It has put me to the point where I just go to the Linden office hours and unload on them. At least I get the chance to deal with a real person 1-on-1, which is about as good as it gets.

Those that have really really bad experiences with LL support who have honestly tried the milk'n'honey approach have every right to feel that the torches and pitchforks approach is the Way To Go right off the bat all the time, especially when it is proven that it gets results. After all, in many cases, hugely inefficient and improperly-run support organizations use the management-by-crisis model, which means that only the squeakiest of wheels get enough grease in an even remotely rational time frame. I think that, in the past anyway, this has been LL's primary operational mode, and can understand how people have come to anticipate it, right or wrong, and thus have gotten their default interface mode switch stuck on "piss'n'vinegar".

That's why it is SO VERY CRITICAL that your customer support organization be first class from day one, because failing to do so means that you will sour many people to it. People have long memories, and even if 10% of them you piss off when you are screwing up, when you do get around to having a first-class support organization, you will still have them to deal with, costing you extra effort and stress that you could have avoided.

Well, I've been where i am for Three years in SL, two in TSO, and a larger number in RL, and i find the results of my approach far more Satisfying than you Obviously find the results of yours, between the two of us i think i probably have the lower blood pressure. I can't really see that your approach has accomplished much of anything. LL still does business in they way they Choose, SL is still SL Regardless of all the histrionics and all i can say is I Understand Why it is as it is because i Listen to the answers i get when i ask. If i have a suggestion, or disagree with a policy, i make my Posts Polite, and with FULL realization that i am NOT the Only person in SL, and that there are factors Other than Consumer demands that govern How a Business is Run. There are Legal, Economic, and Technical issues that we are Not fully Privilaged to know and ther effect can be Much more far reaching than our simple dissatisfaction, and being Rude to the LL staff can't Change that fact. There are some times when you Have to accept that you are not going to get your way.

"The Storm does Not respect a Fool"
Khaless

Angel.

This.

And most particularly this one bit:



Couldn't be said better, IMO.

Only the tiniest part of the issue is "getting my way". It's about an absolute lack of respect LL shows for it's customer base. LL unloads far too much of what is it's responsibility on the customers, and always has - live help, mentors, instructors, resmods, the LSL wiki... Hell, the open source community is taking up the slack on fixing bugs in the client that LL can't be bothered to fix themselves, or are too inept to fix, and more than once things LL have said they would do have sat abandoned so long that, again, residents took up the reigns and did it themselves.

It's like the story about stone soup. Familiar with that one? A man comes to a village, and claims he has a magic stone that makes soup when placed in water. So he puts it in the pot, tastes the water, and says, "Boy, this is good soup, but it could use just a touch of salt...", and a village brings him salt, then says it could use a touch of carrot, and a villager brings him carrots, etc.

Except it's not quite like that, because LL doesn't come across as a quirky wiseman helping a downtrodden village out. In the case of SL, LL does one thing while the rest of us desperately try to patch things back together that they broke in their wake, because god knows THEY can't be trusted to do so.

My experience in life goes along with that thinking 100%. And to be honest I have had polite and helpful responses from LL employees in the past. But.........there is always a but (and this a big one)!!!! Those pleasant experiences were a long time ago.....back when we had in game communications with LL. Back when we had "Live Help". That is gone now.............so we no longer have a way to "one on one" with anyone from LL. I was always polite and patient with live helpers and they were always polite and patient with me too. It's gone now. So I looked to Linden Answers for help when I needed it.....and when I first started visiting LA the serious questions or problems were generally polite and constructive. But when someone asked repeatedly (or a bunch of people asked) a politely worded and honestly intended question or problem the answers were not forthcoming.............of if answered at all were usually linked to the "knowledge base" (which actually answered nothing at all). It became a forum where someone who had a genuine question or problem asked and recieved nothing for their time...........and that is where the frustrations set in. It became apparent that LL was "too busy" to help us little guys........we were demoted to the status of just the peons.

And their response? Shut it down. Tell us that the forum was not effective and could be be "scaled". Total BS. It could have been "scaled".........if they wanted it to be. They praised the "Blog" as the way to communicate to them. And we all know that the blog is nothing but and "announcement" tool for LL..................it helps us not at all. We don't have any two way communication path with it. It's entirely one way.......LL has the "voice" we can listen but cannot effectively talk back. Relegated to "peon" status again. No wonder many of us get frustrated and "vent" on LL. It's human nature. It probably accomplishes zero in the scope of things........but it gives us relief for a brief moment when we hit the "submit reply" button.

At this time LL has the upper hand.......they are the only kid on the block. That's not going to hold true for much longer.......and I'm afraid LL's fate is almost sealed when that competition comes along.

This is MY point in a Nutshell, It Acomplishes Nothing so WHY do it? What Really is the point of writing a four page post Entitled, as one person Observed "You Incompetant F**kn*ts!!" when Such a heading pretty much Guarantess it will Not be read, and anything you Might have said that was of any use or relevance will be Lost. All it succeeds in doing is Making a self fulfilling prophecy. You are Making certain that you will never be heard.

If you have Complaints, and i never once suggested everything in SL is perfect, Then MAKE your complaints but make them in a Fashion where you KNOW the LL staff won't just Bin them without even opening them. If you Want to be Heard, then Conduct yourself in a manner Worth being Heard. But if you act like a Petulant Child, then Don't complain that you are being Dismissed like one. Such behaviour really isn't worth any more consideration than that.

Angel.

Back a few years ago, I acted as Community Manager for another online game. We had forums as well as in/out of game chat facilities. I made it a point to investigate and read posts PRECISELY like those, and respond to them. Why? One would think that I was encouraging people to give us abuse, since I was giving attention to someone who was clearly angry and venting. However, the way it worked, without fail, was that I took it as a sign that we weren't doing our support job well enough, and that we needed to pay more attention and do a better job. Surprisingly enough, we took care of the person's issue(s), he/she apologized for getting so out-of-sorts, everyone else realized that we did care, and we did do everything we can to make everyone as happy as they could be. The result? The angsty "You Arseholes Are Incompetent" posts were extremely rare. People knew that they DIDN'T have to get their arse up on their shoulder to get their issues listened to, acknowledged, and resolved. We were right there, listening to them, helping them out, with prompt, courteous, and effective support service. We acted like people, and treated them like people (quite a few of them as friends).



That's fine; they can't complain about their feelings getting hurt and people calling their level of support crap, either, if that's the case.

I'm sorry, but if you are going to operate a customer support organization, you will have to learn to treat your customers very well, or you DESERVE whatever you get. Period.

Maturity goes both ways, and "turn the other cheek" is often a very good support policy.

As i said, I also work in a public Service capacity, and Every venue i worked in in the past has Had a Zero Tolerance policy for Abuse of it's Employees. When someone became Abusive we politely terminated the Conversation with the Suggestion that the person reinitiate Contact once they have regained their composure, and could conduct themselves in a Reasonable manner. In Every position i have been in, the Distinction between a customer Expressing displeasure with the service, and the customer becoming Abusive has been a Very Clear One and Abuse was Not accepted or Tolerated. I can See someone In person or on the Telephone momentarily losing composure, But here, in Text you have a fairly protracted amount of time to CONSIDER what you are saying, and How you are saying it, and as Far as I can See there is No excuse because people have lots of time to Cool Down, and THINK (I have already removed some Phrases here having decided they are Unnecesary, and Less than courteous).

It is odd i suppose that one of my favorite quotes on the subject comes from a Fictional Mass Murderer, but it Does best express how I feel.
"Discourtesy is Unspeakably Ugly to me"
~Hannibal Lecter~
It always Has been, I was raised that way, and all i can say is It has Eased my life immeasurably, I don't seem to be nearly as Unhappy as many. I Get the Treatment i Deserve, and i do it without behaving in a manner i would be Ashamed of later. If you feel people Get what they deserve, then maybe you can make that leap as to why some people Get what they perceive as Poor Service, Maybe they are getting All their behaviour Deserves?

Angel.

Yes but a fictional mass murderer with a good taste in food... mmm liver, fava beans, and ciante

A friend had a t-shirt in RL that read: (pardon the vulgarity)

"If you can't make me:
Laugh, Think or Cum,
then Feed Me or GO AWAY."

I'm not going to give much thought to someone who can't even get LL's name right when they're insulting them. Ignorance is isn't as funny as it used to be, unless it's really lucky.


I guess for the forums it boils down to:

Be funny, interesting, or offensively wrong... or be ignored.

In RL i saw a baby wearing a t-Shirt emblazoned with the Phrase "Emergency Food Supply" Where would you place that on the List?

A.

Right on... scores on 2, (and in an emergency it gets a 3rd point!) out of 4 points possible!

I see what you're saying,t o an extent, but theres very little of what I would term "abuse". There is anger, yes, there is derision, yes, but nobody generally unloads on someone in a truly abusive fashion. It happens, certainly, but I wouldn't say it's anywhere near a majority of the responses.

Beyond that, I think LL has opened themselves up to the anger - they have progressively closed off avenues of communication, while at the same time seeming to ignore what little communication is left even more strenuously. They can't expect to do that and NOT get people upset.

I've never said or even hinted at supporting abuse against the /person/ doing the job. I'm talking about people who are pissed off AT the service and the POSITIONS who are supposed to be doing the job, but are screwing up. I don't know any Lindens personally, for example; but as representatives of a company, they are responsible for supporting the service they offer. When they shirk that responsibility, or go so far as to be abusive themselves, by Jove, they get exactly what they deserve. If that bothers the /person/ behind the desk, or on the other side of the phone or forum, then maybe they need to find a real organization worth working for, because the abuse is a direct result of the Company's incompetence, not the customers who are often beyond tired of being jerked around by said Company.

I also did not tolerate personal abuse and harassment of my staff; however, there is a definite and sizeable area of abuse which can justifiably be targeted towards the Company that a support person as a representative has to expect to handle.

Personally, I don't care how polite the people at the other end are; if they are incompetent, or sometimes treat the customer abusively themselves, they are going to have to cope with the results. Being passive aggressive and hanging up on a customer is just as likely to escalate the problem even more than resolve it. In many cases, knowing how to handle an irate customer can often save an account that is worth saving, where treating them condescendingly would lose it. I've had to field calls from really torqued off customers who were jerked around by a separate division of the company and, in a few short words, I have them calmed down and we're getting to the meat of their problems. I suppose I could have just told them "I'm sorry, sir; I cannot proceed to help you in your current frame of mind; please call back when you are feeling better" and hung up on them, too. However, I guess I empathize with irate people too well, because I have been there too many times myself.

Forums and text are treated by many people as cold and impersonal, and it is all too easy for people to really let their hair hang down as opposed to reigning in their "displeasure" because there is actually a person there. Oft times, many people feel like they are talking to a machine, even when there is someone responding to them on the other end, because that person is often responding with form letters, answers from stupid, moronic "expert" systems, or not even responding at all. As such, it conditions people to respond with ever increasing irritation and ire until the support person actually starts listening, acknowledging, and REALLY helping them with their problem.



Yes, I have seen how he's such a shining example of "courtesy" to his victims. Such a deliciously one-sided, insane take on things.



*shrug* When I am dealing with incompetent support organizations as a disgruntled customer, I learn to do what I have to do to get results. If milk'n'honey works best, that is what I use. If piss'n'vinegar works best, that is what I use. Sadly, it seems the end justifies the means; though not from my choices, but theirs. Usually, I end up navigating the minefield of useless "support" people often placed in the way as roadblocks and keep a mental map of the path I have to go to get to someone who knows what the hell they are doing so I can get issues resolved ASAP.

Once in a while, it is nice to put some twit in their place when he/she is not doing his/her job. I've probably gotten at least 3 people fired for their poor behavior and incompetence in dealing with customers.

It keeps me very happy, too.

What is Ironic is that even though Linden Lab has reduced active communications with them, more and more of their policy announcements claim to have broad customer support.

Delusions of grandeur.............or out and out lies. I'm leaning toward the latter.

LOL. I like this. I like this a lot.