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Ghosty Kips
Elora's Llama
Join date: 2 May 2008
Posts: 2,386
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07-23-2009 18:35
From: Imagin Illyar Ok, there must be one more way I can put this. I said, "Religion prevents people from thinking for themselves. I've noticed that when religious people begin to question things they don't remain religious for very long."
I am not saying "Almost every religion prevents people from thinking for themselves", those aren't my words.
I meant what I said in the context of the beliefs of religion. I am very happy that you were able to find a religion that has a doctrine that so closely matches what you figured out on your own. I myself conducted a similar search and did not.
I took exception to the tired argument that people who hypothesize there is no god somehow think they are superior or smarter than those that hypothesize that there is. I have never intended to attempt to change anyone's mind but there isn't much wiggle room between these two camps - either there is or isn't a god. I wrote a long response to this, and realized this is getting neither of us anywhere. At this point we are playing a semantics game, which does nothing but get each other's dander up. Please, what I am saying, and only saying is this: You cannot say "Religion prevents people from thinking for themselves" because it does not apply to every single religion and every single person. It is just as wrong to say this as it is to say all Mexicans are lazy, or all white people can't dance. Yes, there ARE lazy Mexicans, and there ARE white people who cannot dance, and there are people who do not think for themselves because of the dictates of their religion. That doesn't validate the statement, however. It's a stereotype.
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Why aren't you doing something more useful, like playing WoW?
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Imagin Illyar
Owner, Willowdale Estates
Join date: 6 Feb 2008
Posts: 290
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07-23-2009 18:36
From: Melita Magic Someone's skimming too fast.
I never even MENTIONED what you said you would do "if an Evangelist came to your door," in fact I did not even read your post saying that to be honest.
When did I say a thing about what you'd do with a real life knock on your door.
I was talking about assumptions. I quoted where you said that if people think for themselves, they do not keep their religious beliefs long. Also where you said that if they start off with the assumption there is a God, then that faith isn't valid.
Enjoy dancing. Ok, one more time. The OP's original question was "I wonder how others feel about this coming into SL , Cyber door knockers ?" I said "Personally I am looking forward to their visit. I'd like to try and save them from their irrational belief in a god. Religion prevents people from thinking for themselves. I've noticed that when religious people begin to question things they don't remain religious for very long." Then everybody took parts of what I said and made it seem like a much broader statement, which was never intended. Although it was quite a rousing debate and many soapboxes were firmly mounted. Ciao for niao - gone to The Cage. |
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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07-23-2009 18:37
From: Ghosty Kips Please, what I am saying, and only saying is this: You cannot say "Religion prevents people from thinking for themselves" because it does not apply to every single religion and every single person. It is just as wrong to say this as it is to say all Mexicans are lazy, or all white people can't dance. Yes, there ARE lazy Mexicans, and there ARE white people who cannot dance, and there are people who do not think for themselves because of the dictates of their religion. That doesn't validate the statement, however. It's a stereotype. This. It's speaking from prejudice. It does not hold up as a logical construct. (/me waits for someone to joke the same is true of faith. yep have heard it all before...Lol.) Imagin - again - I was not speaking to that in my posts. I took what you said and replied to it. You said certain things that are there in print. Don't obfuscate.
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"Every time you help a newbie, an angel gets its wings." - from some movie or other...
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Imagin Illyar
Owner, Willowdale Estates
Join date: 6 Feb 2008
Posts: 290
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07-23-2009 18:38
From: Ghosty Kips ... Please, what I am saying, and only saying is this: You cannot say "Religion prevents people from thinking for themselves" because it does not apply to every single religion and every single person. ... Well, actually I can say that but indeed, I have not and am not. I am closing my web browser now though, I look way to hot to be typing on the forum  |
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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07-23-2009 18:38
From: Imagin Illyar Well, actually I can say that but indeed, I have not and am not. I am closing my web browser now though, I look way to hot to be typing on the forum /me rolls eyes. All I can say is, it is there in print. Go enjoy your hotness at the virtual disco.
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"Every time you help a newbie, an angel gets its wings." - from some movie or other...
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Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
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07-23-2009 18:55
From: Melita Magic /me rolls eyes. All I can say is, it is there in print. Go enjoy your hotness at the virtual disco. Disco is so 70's. These discussions always end in people being upset or things being misunderstood or worse. Believe what you want - you have the Free Will to do so. I for one, like i said, am waiting for 2061/62. If we survive 2012 i mean...  |
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Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 7,145
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07-23-2009 19:14
From: 3Ring Binder Mari, one of my favorite cartoons:  Good'un!
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  "There's nothing objectionable nor illegal in having a child-like avatar in itself and we must assume innocence until proof of the contrary." - Lewis PR Linden "If you find children offensive, you're gonna have trouble in this world " - Prospero Linden
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Dana Hickman
Leather & Lace™
Join date: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,515
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07-23-2009 20:13
From: Imagin Illyar A religion or a denomination of a religion, is defined by what it believes Not at all.. it is *stereotyped* by what it believes. It's defined by the people, the individuals who have faith in it. From: Imagin Illyar Because the religion comes with a set of beliefs you have no reason to think for yourself and come up with your own. I'm not saying that religions have thought control to prevent you from thinking differently, obviously, but I have noticed that when people do start to question the beliefs of their religion they don't have much use for religion any more. I wanna know WTF you're smoking.. cuz it's obviously had some ill effects. Religious morals tend to act like behavioral guidelines, but they have zip to do with free thinking, OR questioning their beliefs, OR being in the here-n-now. In fact, people of faith tend to spend LOTS MORE time than others thinking about and questioning those things you say they don't do. The moral lessons learned from any religion have every-day value that's NOT tempered or defined by which God they worship, if any, or by what church/temple it may be in. You assume many of the high-strung stories included in many religions are the basis of their religious beliefs, when actually it's the morals and faith that are the true strength of ANY belief system. You assume wrong. I haven't seen much religious stuff/people in SL, but I'm not suprised they're here. If being in SL is their newest, coolest thing since bible camp or Strypers tunes from the 80's, have fun with that. Just don't try preaching to me, or you WILL see true evil.
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~Friendship is like peeing your pants... ~
~Everyone can see it, but only you can feel its true warmth~
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LittleMe Jewell
...........
Join date: 8 Oct 2007
Posts: 11,319
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07-23-2009 20:31
From: Briana Dawson What i find funny is how everyone takes bits and pieces of religion(s) and form their own belief structure. They seem to conveniently ignore scripture which may denounce their daily actions, or way of life but then subscribe to and even verbally promote other scripture which they agree with or justifies their actions or way of life.
! Most definitely!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxjPyp4fnrs
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♥♥♥
-Lil
Why do you sit there looking like an envelope without any address on it?
~Mark Twain~
Optimism is denial, so face the facts and move on.
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Lil's Yard Sale / Inventory Cleanout: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Triggerfish/52/27/22
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/littleme_jewell
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Analisa Mounier
Registered User
Join date: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 35
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07-23-2009 21:21
From: Vance Adder Of course he does. Man was a rough draft. He learned from the endeavor, started with a rib, and made a masterpiece on his next try. Amen!  |
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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07-23-2009 22:35
From: Briana Dawson Disco is so 70's. Yeah, I know, the joke didn't go over I guess.
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"Every time you help a newbie, an angel gets its wings." - from some movie or other...
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Marcush Nemeth
Registered User
Join date: 3 Apr 2007
Posts: 402
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07-24-2009 00:00
Darn, got a chance to see Bri's boobies, but noooo image shack returns a "permissions denied"  |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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07-24-2009 00:35
i think it is a mistake to assume all believers are feeble-minded.
there are religious people of incredibly massive intellect dedicating themselves to theology, god, and higher thinking. not all people of religion are ned flanders.
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SLU - ban em then bash em!
~~GREATEST HITS~~
pro-life? gtfo! slu- banning opposing opinions one at a time
http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/zomgwtfbbqgtfololcats/15428-disingenuous.html
learn to shut up and nod in agreement... or be banned!
http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/off-topic/1239-americans-not-stupid.html
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Jig Chippewa
Fine Young Cannibal
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,150
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07-24-2009 04:24
From: Nina Stepford i think it is a mistake to assume all believers are feeble-minded.
there are religious people of incredibly massive intellect dedicating themselves to theology, god, and higher thinking. not all people of religion are ned flanders. The most intensely pleasing and calming religious experience is Evensong. High Anglican Evensong. Preferably in a gorgeous London church. It renews one's faith in humanity yet centres upon one's solitude from the throng of people outside on the pavements. Then home to a meal of cheese, biscuits and fruit. Quietly.
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Fine Young Cannibal
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Imagin Illyar
Owner, Willowdale Estates
Join date: 6 Feb 2008
Posts: 290
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07-24-2009 05:08
Well, before this conversation I honestly didn't think that most religious people were feeble minded. Now I see it really is the opium of the masses.
When it really comes down to it the purpose of life is to enjoy it. If you are happy in your religion then so be it. I personally can not accept that there is a god. To me it is irrational to think that there is. I can not be happy in a religion and if someone comes to me trying to convert me I will still say they are not thinking for themselves.
This is all I've said. Most have heard only what they needed to get up on a soapbox. One even admitted they didn't read my answer to the original question. Odd, I haven't said anything else, just defended that original statement. And then they go on to tell me how rational and free-thinking they are. Yeah, whatever.
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Jerboa Haystack
TGTKFMA
Join date: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 2,283
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07-24-2009 05:21
From: Imagin Illyar Hey, I never said it was science. You started all the science stuff as soon as you saw the word hypothesis used. I don't consider that word strictly a scientific term. I had fun with the analagies but I never said hypothesizing about the existence of god was science.
To set the record straight, my first direct response to you was in regards to this: From: Imagin Illyar If this perspective makes me arrogant than so be it but is it really unscientific? I hypothesize that there is no god. I don't see how my hypothesis makes you feel of inferior intellect. Must be the arrogance. This seems to indicate that you did in fact suggest that hypothesizing about the existence of god was scientific, as well as use 'hypothesis' in a scientific context. So I replied that yes, it is in fact unscientific. It appears that you do agree with this sentiment. So why try to slide around the point?
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From: Maureen Boccaccio Well between your fingers and that magical device, you work wonders. TOTD: "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." - Douglas Adams
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Conifer Dada
Hiya m'dooks!
Join date: 6 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,716
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07-24-2009 05:33
I had one of those religious roadside noticeboards next to my home at one time.
I put another sign next to it, but on my land, saying 'you are now entering a religion-free zone'. On the sign was a picture of me standing naked in front of the religious sign, but with 'censored' stuck across the sign!
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Innula Zenovka
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,825
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07-24-2009 05:45
The only people in SL who've shown any interest in the fate of my immortal soul are Bloodlines players. Until I got myself hidden from Bloodlines huds by one of those free garlic necklaces (you only need to wear it for long enough to confirm you don't want to play) I was forever being approached by solicitous vampires who were concerned that I'd initially allowed myself to be bitten by someone from a completely unsuitable background and that all manner of dreadful things would happen unless I let their clan take care of my soul. I don't think any of them gave me a pamphlet to read, which is a shame, cos I would have retaliated with this one: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=135 |
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Jerboa Haystack
TGTKFMA
Join date: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 2,283
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07-24-2009 05:50
From: Conifer Dada I had one of those religious roadside noticeboards next to my home at one time.
I put another sign next to it, but on my land, saying 'you are now entering a religion-free zone'. On the sign was a picture of me standing naked in front of the religious sign, but with 'censored' stuck across the sign! pixplstksbai
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From: Maureen Boccaccio Well between your fingers and that magical device, you work wonders. TOTD: "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." - Douglas Adams
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Jerboa Haystack
TGTKFMA
Join date: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 2,283
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07-24-2009 05:53
From: Innula Zenovka The only people in SL who've shown any interest in the fate of my immortal soul are Bloodlines players. Until I got myself hidden from Bloodlines huds by one of those free garlic necklaces (you only need to wear it for long enough to confirm you don't want to play) I was forever being approached by solicitous vampires who were concerned that I'd initially allowed myself to be bitten by someone from a completely unsuitable background and that all manner of dreadful things would happen unless I let their clan take care of my soul. I don't think any of them gave me a pamphlet to read, which is a shame, cos I would have retaliated with this one: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=135lol! But wouldn't that have been a nice change of pace! No ultra-emo goth victorian sending blind bite requests, but instead a well dressed polite lady/gentleman handing out 'Improve Your Immortal Unlife" pamphlets hoping for a bite. Oh, I think I see Alt possibilities here.
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From: Maureen Boccaccio Well between your fingers and that magical device, you work wonders. TOTD: "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." - Douglas Adams
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Jerboa Haystack
TGTKFMA
Join date: 23 Sep 2008
Posts: 2,283
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07-24-2009 05:55
From: Imagin Illyar Well, before this conversation I honestly didn't think that most religious people were feeble minded. Now I see it really is the opium of the masses.
 Since we're talking about original thought.... *whistles* by the way, that's "opiate of the masses", not "opium of the masses"
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From: Maureen Boccaccio Well between your fingers and that magical device, you work wonders. TOTD: "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." - Douglas Adams
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Imagin Illyar
Owner, Willowdale Estates
Join date: 6 Feb 2008
Posts: 290
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07-24-2009 06:18
Marx says "opium" here: http://www.awitness.org/news/november_2001/opiate_religion_marx.htmlHe certainly got the masses part right. I expected to find a more enlightened crowd here. Wow. |
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Deira Llanfair
Deira to rhyme with Myra
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,315
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07-24-2009 06:25
From: Lexxi Gynoid The Pope visited the hangout a few times. At least he was dressed as the Pope.
I wonder if the Pope knows about SL, and if so, what he might come in as inside of SL (assuming he didn't come in as himself). I think he would coming in as a kitty and find patches of warm soft sunshine and nap there. When I was at the World Artistic Roller Skating Championships in Rome, a few years ago, Pope Benedict came and blessed all the skaters. I'm not RC, but he seemed a very nice person - and what goes round comes round, so if you give out blessings they will be returned to you. ... and if he comes to SL, I will give him a free skating HUD. (Well it was a lot better than having some mad mullah cursing skaters for showing their arms and legs!) Sorry - on topic: No, no one had ever tried proselytising to me in SL.
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Deira Must create animations for head-desk and palm-face!.
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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07-24-2009 06:38
From: Imagin Illyar Most have heard only what they needed to get up on a soapbox. One even admitted they didn't read my answer to the original question. What difference does that make? It is a completely different topic than what you have ended up talking about. All of your posts about how sheep-like and worse, you feel religious people are, are entirely off topic - but you do not even admit what you wrote even though it remains in typeface for anyone to read. If anyone jumped up and stayed up on a soapbox, it was you. From: someone He certainly got the masses part right. I expected to find a more enlightened crowd here. Wow. Are you able to make a single post in this thread without insulting those who disagree with you? So now enlightened = agrees with your personal views? Masses = people who happen to agree with each other? Are those who share your views also 'enfeebled/opiate addled masses'? Do you have any idea how bigoted you are beginning to sound? I'm guessing not.
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"Every time you help a newbie, an angel gets its wings." - from some movie or other...
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Deira Llanfair
Deira to rhyme with Myra
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,315
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07-24-2009 06:48
From: Amaranthim Talon Is that Mr.Schrödinger's cat scratching at the door? No, I think it was Buddha. Sounds like Nargarjuna, or someone Tibetan. They get into incredible convolutions about tables.
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Deira Must create animations for head-desk and palm-face!.
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