Conversion

Woohoo - I know what Briana's tatoo says I have a friend in Isreal. I don't wanna say here though, unless it's ok with her. But she is definitely a very naughty she-elf

SAY IT!!! SAY IT!!!

Ok, there must be one more way I can put this. I said, "Religion prevents people from thinking for themselves. I've noticed that when religious people begin to question things they don't remain religious for very long."

I am not saying "Almost every religion prevents people from thinking for themselves", those aren't my words.

I meant what I said in the context of the beliefs of religion. I am very happy that you were able to find a religion that has a doctrine that so closely matches what you figured out on your own. I myself conducted a similar search and did not.

I took exception to the tired argument that people who hypothesize there is no god somehow think they are superior or smarter than those that hypothesize that there is. I have never intended to attempt to change anyone's mind but there isn't much wiggle room between these two camps - either there is or isn't a god.

No one has tried to convert me in SL. I would say "Hey, this is secondlife, not the afterlife" I would also tell them I have to study all religions in order to be converted, and with 35,000+ secs of religion, that might take a while. I need to be sure I pick the right one, and not just the one that was spoon fed to me my whole life because of my geographical location. Very few venture beyond their childhood teachings, but I believe you must if you want to try and understand the big picture. Always question, it's the only way progress is made.

Perhaps you mean something more like: "It seems to me that organized religion sometimes provides a crutch for the displacement of personal responsibility onto a deity.". The fault, dear Imagin, is not in the belief system, but in ourselves, that we are sometimes mentally lazy. Happens to BOTH unbelievers and believers, yes? It's just that organized religions sometimes provide a rulebook for personal conduct, and people then get lazy and think if they follow those rules they will be Good. Never true, circumstances can never be completely handled by any set of rules. Many religious folks, and even some religions, I know are aware of that.

Personally, I believe a sense of personal ethics is independent from one's belief system. My own is rather confusedly pantheistic/humanist. I think one can think creatively and be responsible for one's own actions regardless of choice of deity; unfortunately, with some organized religions providing much in the way of specific behavioral guidance, people sometimes get confused and think no ethics are possible without belief in the same god they themselves embrace. It's unfortunate, but it's human nature.

I think the closest I've come is this: /327/31/326946/1.html

Not exactly someone trying to convert others, but just as obnoxious

[[Please note, I only refer to the attempt at *conversion* as being obnoxious, I don't refer to anyone's beliefs]]


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You have actually done a fair job of arguing my point for me. The statements "God does not exist", and "God does exist" are not falsafiable. They do not predict behaviors in the physical world that lend themselves to testing. By their nature they are not open to empirical study. Putting the word "hypothesis" in front of them does not change their nature. An untestable statement, whatever else it is, is not science.

You claim your 'hypothesis' is based on a multi-thousand-years ongoing experiment. How can that that be? What evidence is absent? How can you even determine what evidence would support or falsify those statements? The best you can do is point to specific physical assertions of specific sects. "The earth is 6000 years old", "The Sun and Moon are siblings", etc. But that is not the same as examining the existence statement.



You say that you are not condescending, and I am willing to accept that as your intent. But, I interpreted your statement:

"Religion prevents people from thinking for themselves. I've noticed that when religious people begin to question things they don't remain religious for very long."

as having a condescending tone. Ghosty is a very fine example of an individual who is religious, has questioned "things", and can certainly think for himself.

Categorical, derrogatory, statements like that are quite often interpreted as being arrogant, or condescending when read by those to whom the statement seems to pertain.

No one has tried to convert me in SL either. I am surprised though after reading/scanning the posts to this thread that I haven't seen anyone make the distinction between religion and spirituality. IMHO religion is all around “control” where as spirituality is more about personal beliefs. The head honchos in any organized religion need to make their particular flavor of religion grow since its a sociological fact that institutions either grow or die. So I believe they use fear as one way to keep their flock in line and coming back regularly. Fear breads insecurity in certain people so that’s why I believe some “religious” types are so hell bent to convert the masses. If I don’t share some insecure persons personal believes then I’m a threat to those beliefs. Again, IMHO, a belief in a “God” or “superior intellect” or whatever you want to call it does not in of itself make you a “religious” person but rather a spiritual person. Conforming to someone’s else’s description of “God” does make you a religious person however. Being a “religious” person doesn’t again IMHO make you a good or bad person. I mean just look at what Mr. J. bush did while in office as an example! Some religious people can and do lie, cheat, steal and even kill all in the name of some religion or religious belief while others like Sister Teresa dedicate their lives to helping others. History has taught us that, if nothing else. In an attempt to be as brief as possible I’ve of course left a lot out of this post but this incapsules what I think is the souse of some peoples zeal to “convert” others to their personal beliefs and how I view religion in general.

Nope never but some of those, at least some, might be using that in order to get off on asking those prurient questions. They might not be actually 'religious' at all. This is SL after all, land of roleplayers.

Weirdest guy I ever met in SL had religious groups in his profile, the other half of his groups were nude beaches, sex clubs and bondage, stuff like that. He was an absolute nut case, alt stalking, IM attacks and the whole bit, and all I did was turn down a dance with him...so just be careful in SL, it takes all kinds!

I disagree completely. Some of the best minds and scholars have been "religious people" and even later declared saints. Look up some of the Church Doctors in the RC church just for one example. Gandhi was no slouch, either. There are brainiacs and philosophers and deep thinkers in every religion I'd wager. Was C.S. Lewis stupid? He went from being an atheist to THINKING his way into religious faith. I find your statement insulting.




And yet your opening sentence here plainly states that anyone who can THINK would be an atheist. Lol.

What i find funny is how everyone takes bits and pieces of religion(s) and form their own belief structure. They seem to conveniently ignore scripture which may denounce their daily actions, or way of life but then subscribe to and even verbally promote other scripture which they agree with or justifies their actions or way of life.

So many want salvation, and so few wish to live by the Word to get it, and opt for creating their own path to the summit of heaven.

Look at the major belief structures/religions of the world:

1 Christianity: 2.1 billion
2 Islam: 1.5 billion
3 Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4 Hinduism: 900 million
5 Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6 Buddhism: 376 million
7 primal-indigenous: 300 million
8 African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9 Sikhism: 23 million
10 Juche: 19 million
11 Spiritism: 15 million
12 Judaism: 14 million
13 Baha'i: 7 million
14 Jainism: 4.2 million
15 Shinto: 4 million
16 Cao Dai: 4 million
17 Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18 Tenrikyo: 2 million
19 Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20 Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21 Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
22 Scientology: 500 thousand
----------------------------------

Lots of paths to the top of that summit for sure - whether or not it is the same summit as the next religion/belief structure is for the those marching to the top to discuss.

I personally am SecondLifetist, and when Haley's comet passes by the Earth in 2061/62 I will be plugged in and waiting for the cosmic rays to bombard my body and transfer my essence into the computer and upload myself into SL for 10L.

If you want to join me, you can. You just need a SL capable machine, a white Nike jumpsuit, white Nike sneakers with a gold swoosh, and 3D virtual goggles which will transfer our essence into the computer. Oh yes, try to be cancer free around that time or the cosmic rays will pass you by.

See you in 2061/62!

Not sure I understood it, but, if this is saying that people have to be perfect in order to be 'saved' - a lot of people don't believe that religion says that. There are many different religions, beliefs; and sects within those, as you've said.

I'm more familiar with Christian religious beliefs/faiths/sects. But, few believe that 'works' or being 'legalistic' or perfectly behaved is what saves you. Some merely say that if you believe, you are saved. Ironically that's what gets some others thinking that there is no thinking involved.

Most beliefs are tested at some point or another, it isn't like a brain shuts off once a person finds faith (not saying you said that - just re: the topic.)

If you mean hypocrisy, yes there are plenty of those around, of all faiths including those for whom money or worldly things comes first before all else. I think anything can be a 'religion' it all depends what the person puts before everything else they know. For some, work is their religion which is why some lose it when they pour it all into a career and don't get what they felt owed by it.

I agree in principle. It seems to me that anyone who starts the search for his own truth from the starting point that there is a god and an afterlife is not thinking for themselves. It could be considered a lazy way to come up with a pre-packaged truth. I could never buy that.

The problem with ethics is they are so often compromised depending on circumstance and other people agreeing with them. They are like religion in that they are adoptable as a pre-packaged deal, no thinking required. Thinking people have no need for ethics, actions and reactions are determined according to circumstance and, as always, based on what we know at the time.



Hey, I never said it was science. You started all the science stuff as soon as you saw the word hypothesis used. I don't consider that word strictly a scientific term. I had fun with the analagies but I never said hypothesizing about the existence of god was science.



I'm saying that people have been accepting the hypothesis that there is a god for thousands of years now and there still isn't any evidence that he exists. I'm not saying that this can be tested. I'm saying that's what faith is. Pretty impressive actually. I just don't buy it.



Well yeah, but in context it isn't quite so broad. What I said was "Personally I am looking forward to their visit. I'd like to try and save them from their irrational belief in a god. Religion prevents people from thinking for themselves. I've noticed that when religious people begin to question things they don't remain religious for very long"

I keep trying to point out that I was not making a broad categorical statement here. I was answering the OP's question about how I would deal with an over-aggressive evangelist type who came to my door. Condescension intended.

I think that some people here perhaps saw the "I don't believe in a god" in the same post as the words "irrational" and "not thinking for themselves" and jumped up on the nearest soapbox to defend their faith. And that's just great, it's been a fun debate.

I'm not suggesting anyone should believe any differently than they do. But if someone comes to my door and suggests that I should believe in their god I will tell them that I think their belief in a god is irrational and that they should think for themselves.

??

Babies in the womb all begin the same. How is truth 'prepackaged?'

All beliefs are continually challenged throughout life, and they change or they do not. Nothing in life is static.

Ok, so let's say that you are a person who thinks for themselves and you decide to begin a search for an answer to all that is that makes sense to you. This will be your truth. There is no higher authority to you than your own truth because it is what you believe.

I am saying that if your starting point in such a quest assumes that there is a god and an afterlife then you aren't really thinking for yourself. You got those assumptions from other people even if you don't align with any religion - why start with those assumptions? It is a pre-packaged belief system that thousands of religions and denominations are based on. It has not exactly led to a peaceful existence for humanity.

Nobody has ever knocked on my door in-world and tried to religiocize me. Wish I could say that about my RL door.

LMAO XD

the easiest people to convert are those trying to convert you. consider your tactics in advance, and be wiley.

Doesn't every person think for themselves? Or are all religious people brainwashed zombies, in your philosophy? Or rather, I guess you're saying, all who end up in religion? What you are saying, in part, is that people who are religious were either spoon-fed it and do not have the brains to think their way to atheism, or, began that way and never questioned it. But your contention is based upon assumption and a prejudiced idea of what faith is.



I know what you were saying. My response is that people do not begin with a 'starting point.' They may have others around them who believe a certain way, but their OWN mind has to accept this to be the case. And then throughout life it will be continually challenged by things which seem to go against the tenets, or faith itself. Nothing in life is static.

I do not agree that people "assume there is a God" - that in itself is already a belief, something the INDIVIDUAL mind grasps as truth and feels comfortable in so doing. Just as OTHER individual minds grasp another truth and feel comfortable with that.

Yet in your scenario, only Christians are mistaken and somehow duped by a false assumption. So that's why I said you are A. presuming they begin with being forcefed something they somehow have no choice in accepting, and B. operating from your bias that atheists are not subject to the same dogmatic stubbornness in holding onto their own belief. Why is it not also possible that an atheist (just for an example, not to pick on that belief either, but it happens to be your view, so that's why I chose that one, it seems immune from your same litmus tests) could have gone through that exact same process and be just as culpable to not testing their beliefs thoroughly as they go through life?

Questions aside, though, my point is basically that there is no basis to say that religious people are inherently stupid, or too fearful or ignorant to test their beliefs, or worse - your contention that anyone who DOES test their beliefs "is no longer religious." Bull.



If you want to talk about "tired arguments," blaming religion for everything from unthinking conformity, to hypocrisy, to mass murder is one. Atheistic communist regimes were aces in all three. Just for one small historic example.

It's clear to me you are biased against religion and those who adhere to such beliefs.

I'm not even gonna touch this topic with the above object

Haha.

And fwiw I am not emotionally stuck into this, it's a debate that happens a zillion times a day on the internets. Usually with a lot of rude behavior. I don't mind a polite discussion/debate once in a while.

And it's almost Friday.

Mari, one of my favorite cartoons:

No, just you. *rolls eyes*




I didn't say or intend any of that, wow.



I'm not an atheist, neither am I blaming religion for anything or trying to convert others to my views. I am tired of defending what I said I would do if an evangelist comes to my door though. I now think I would just shoot him. Enough - I'm going dancing in SL

i like the way you think. and guess what, this actually stops them.

Someone's skimming too fast.

I never even MENTIONED what you said you would do "if an Evangelist came to your door," in fact I did not even read your post saying that to be honest.

When did I say a thing about what you'd do with a real life knock on your door.

I was talking about assumptions. I quoted where you said that if people think for themselves, they do not keep their religious beliefs long. Also where you said that if they start off with the assumption there is a God, then that faith isn't valid.

Enjoy dancing.