Im no prude but...
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Trout Recreant
Public Enemy No. 1
Join date: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 4,873
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08-01-2008 10:16
From: Bartlebus Baxton Hello Trout, Well first off, thanks for the.. well quantity and quality of your post.. although as a non-lawyer maybe I'm not the best judge of the quality. I'll try to err on the side of pith if I may. Firstly I believe that I did cite the case correctly in later post.. sorry if you missed that. I think in citing it and the other examples .. including the concept of in loco parentis, I was simply trying to convey the idea that the idea of how and what we do as a society to protect the vulnerable in our society.. in this case children.. isn't simply to let them live or die in support of a sacrosanct interpretation of the 1st amendment or any case or finding. I think I was simply trying to show the degree to which it seems our law makers are stuggling to deal with a new society (as Qie pointed out) and a new media/technology. Perhaps I was too beligerent, but as I say I get a bit naffed off when I hear the same old, same old... in reaction to the real and new issues we're facing now. I hear all the time.. why should the web be any different to TV or Shakespeare or the telephone.. well we muck about in SL for goodness sake.. we should be the last people to ask that question. Besides which I like to ruffle feathers and have fun.. yes at the expense of other people's tightly held prejudices.. so shoot me..or call me a Troll..  I think Victoria's point was an interesting one. Again I'm not really qualified to talk about a community standards approach to obscenity.. but it raises an interesting ( albet perhaps uninformed question!) .. which community are we talking about.. Our state.. country.. ISP.. or our chosen online community .. SL for example. And if we're connecting and socialising in a broad group where anyone can log in and walk past.. does that still count as "behind closed doors"..? Just wondering.. I wish quantity=quality, but unfortunately, it doesn't. I was just trying to address everything thoroughly. It got pretty long, didn't it? Sorry. Your citation is fine. My beef is with the NY Times for writing an entire op/ed piece about a specific Supreme Court decision and not once citing to the decision. That's just lazy (again - not your problem, it's theirs). I understand your point. My point is that we do step in to protect them on an individual, case by case basis based on factors other than the First Amendment. Ignore in loco parentis. It doesn't apply here at all unless you're suggesting the the State appoint guardian ad litems for every child in the US with access to the internet, which you clearly aren't. The Courts are struggling with what to do about the internet. It's a fascinating issue, not just for censorship. The jurisdictional issues alone are mind-boggling. The problem is that our judicial system moves slowly. By the time a legislature passes a law, the law goes into effect, a suitable test case comes up, and it works its way through the system, years have gone by, and to get a full body of law like we have in, for example, corporate law, takes many decades. In internet terms, that might as well be eons. It would be like the courts determing DMCA cases between two cavemen arguing over cave paintings. They're 10,000 years too late. The question here isn't whether the internet should be treated differently than Shakespeare; it's whether SL should be treated differently than the internet. In my opinion, it should not be any different.
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From: Jerboa Haystack
A Trout Rating (tm) is something to cherish. To flaunt and be proud of. It is something all women should aspire to obtain!
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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08-01-2008 10:18
From: someone Your citation is fine. My beef is with the NY Times for writing an entire op/ed piece about a specific Supreme Court decision and not once citing to the decision. That's just lazy (again - not your problem, it's theirs). Typical of The Times, though. "All the News that we think is fit to print".
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-01-2008 10:21
From: Trout Recreant
The question here isn't whether the internet should be treated differently than Shakespeare; it's whether SL should be treated differently than the internet. In my opinion, it should not be any different.
Of course it shouldn't. And furthermore there should not be such laws in place to hamper the free trade of ideas and thoughts on the internet. Because ultimately the freedoms presented in the 1st Amendment are about protecting thought. As technology advances further and further the need for those protections will matter more and more. |
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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08-01-2008 10:25
From: Trout Recreant The question here isn't whether the internet should be treated differently than Shakespeare; it's whether SL should be treated differently than the internet. In my opinion, it should not be any different. agreed. but on the other hand, as much as it's a nuisance to some, i do appreciate that SL does (at least) something to protect children, even if the motivation is purely to protect themselves.
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it was fun while it lasted.
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Victorria Paine
Sleepless in Wherever
Join date: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 1,110
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08-01-2008 10:35
From: Trout Recreant
The Courts are struggling with what to do about the internet. It's a fascinating issue, not just for censorship. The jurisdictional issues alone are mind-boggling. ...
The question here isn't whether the internet should be treated differently than Shakespeare; it's whether SL should be treated differently than the internet. In my opinion, it should not be any different.
I agree that the internet is a mess from the legal perspective. It's an instantaneous trans-territorial medium -- the legal framework did not anticipate that kind of medium as a proper subject of the law, and it will take some time for agreed upon rules of the road to become normative. The problem with SL is that it goes beyond the internet in terms of personal involvement and interaction, and it also has the "cartoon" issue, which again attracts attention of muckrakers. Plainly put, people see cartoons as attracting kids, and when you put cartoons and stripping or Dominatrices together, well, yes that will get a lot of negative attention. I think SL is doing the right thing by taking some measures to limit access to underage typists -- because as we all know, bad facts make bad law, and there aren't too many worse facts than 14 year old Johnny being screencapped as his "cartoon" avatar is being whipped by Mistress X. That incident alone could make some very bad law, I think. |
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Kokoro Fasching
Pixie Dust and Sugar
Join date: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 949
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08-01-2008 11:12
From: Bartlebus Baxton
Obscenity has no protection under the 1st Amendment.. Pornography a bit.. and to be honest the Roth test itself would appear to to put paid to depictions of a "snuff" bed in a public environment whether accessible to children or not.
I'm assuming we can all agree that it is patently offensive and has no serious literary, artistic , political or scientific value.
You can assume all you want, but we all don't agree to that. There much fun and scientific value had when I rez that bed next to one of the "We have sex now" new ones, have them on the pink ball, look like we are going to do something, and I shoot them. ;P About the only think I will agree to is that you can not get everyone to agree to the same agreement at the same time. |
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Katelicious Xue
Fresh Meat
Join date: 7 Jul 2008
Posts: 202
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08-02-2008 21:22
From: Bartlebus Baxton Sorry if I'm being a bit belligerent, but this sort of "I'll fight for our freedoms with my last breath, just as long as I can cower anonymously in the corner" b*llocks just makes me a bit mad.. B /me wonders where I can buy this dude some vallium |
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Feldspar Millgrove
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 372
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08-03-2008 01:08
From: Faithless Babii I didnt see any warning signs...at all...there were a load of beds ...mixed in with other things.. All content in Second Life is "adult" and therefore potentially offensive - minors are not allowed on the grid. Of course, even though you are not a child who needs protection from the world, you may wish to avoid certain kinds of content. At the top of your screen at all times it says either "Mature" or "PG". From your description and in light of a guess as to what the (TOS) "community standards" are, this content was probably appropriate only for Mature land. So if you don't want to see things like, don't go onto Mature land. (Nothing is perfect though, since in any event you can still see things on Mature land without standing on it, or even knowing so easily that it's Mature.) The system could be engineered to better help you avoid Mature content. Maybe there should be a Preference option that you can set which will prevent you from walking onto Mature (as opposed to PG) land. Or maybe it should be for parcels that have the "Mature Content" option turned on. If you tried to go there, you would run into banlines. You can also imagine some kind of resident-operated ratings system which the land owners and the shoppers could subscribe to; this would give more options to both parties, so there could be "Violent Content" or whatever. There could be all kinds of ways of owners, boards/cabals, and shoppers to interact with each other about optional content restrictions... |
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Chav Paderborn
in ur sl
Join date: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 192
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08-03-2008 08:56
From: Qie Niangao I suppose the cited content is a candidate for "broadly offensive." The proliferation of Gorean sims rather suggests that the Lindens don't give a **** about virtual violence against women. So I doubt it. |
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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08-03-2008 09:39
From: Chav Paderborn The proliferation of Gorean sims rather suggests that the Lindens don't give a **** about virtual violence against women. So I doubt it. Is anyone forced to go to a Gorean sim? Is anyone forced to sit on a violent poseball?
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I'm going to pick a fight
William Wallace, Braveheart
“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind”
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Chav Paderborn
in ur sl
Join date: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 192
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08-03-2008 09:45
From: Chris Norse Is anyone forced to go to a Gorean sim? Is anyone forced to sit on a violent poseball? Is anyone forced to use a virtual slot machine or have sex with a child avatar? |
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Adz Childs
Artificial Boy
Join date: 6 Apr 2006
Posts: 865
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08-03-2008 09:45
Next time limit please your search to "Sex Beds Missionary Position Only" to limit your risk of being broadly offended.
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http://slnamewatch.com — Second Life Last Name Tracking — Email Alerts — Famous People Lookup — http://adz.secondlifekid.com/ — Artificial Boy — Personal Blog From: Tofu Linden Hmm, there's nothing really helpful there, but thanks for pasting.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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08-03-2008 09:51
From: Chav Paderborn Is anyone forced to use a virtual slot machine or have sex with a child avatar? Nope, and nice try, but those are two very different issues. Personally, I could care less if they do either. But then I know the difference between fantasy and reality.
_____________________
I'm going to pick a fight
William Wallace, Braveheart
“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind”
Douglas MacArthur
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Chav Paderborn
in ur sl
Join date: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 192
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08-03-2008 09:55
From: Chris Norse Nope, and nice try, but those are two very different issues. Personally, I could care less if they do either. But then I know the difference between fantasy and reality. People can fantasise about violating women all they want, but equally I can be open about how much it makes me recoil. My point - as you well know - was that such things are unlikely to go away with an AR because it's obvious that misogyny and violence against women are *no* considered "broadly offensive" by the Lindens. Whether it should be or not, the fact is that they don't seem to mind. It's nothing to do with avatars being forced into things, as plenty has been banned that people got into by choice. |
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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08-03-2008 10:00
From: Chav Paderborn People can fantasise about violating women all they want, but equally I can be open about how much it makes me recoil. My point - as you well know - was that such things are unlikely to go away with an AR because it's obvious that misogyny and violence against women are *no* considered "broadly offensive" by the Lindens. Whether it should be or not, the fact is that they don't seem to mind. It's nothing to do with avatars being forced into things, as plenty has been banned that people got into by choice. Gambling was banned for the simple reason that if LL allowed it, the credit card companies would have stopped payments to them. Simple economic reasons, nothing moralistic about it. The age play was shut off due to attention from nanny state Euro governments that don't know the difference between real and fake.
_____________________
I'm going to pick a fight
William Wallace, Braveheart
“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind”
Douglas MacArthur
FULL
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Chav Paderborn
in ur sl
Join date: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 192
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08-03-2008 10:02
From: Chris Norse The age play was shut off due to attention from nanny state Euro governments that don't know the difference between real and fake. Oh, right, you're a libertarian. Forget I spoke. |
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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08-03-2008 10:03
From: Chav Paderborn Oh, right, you're a libertarian. Forget I spoke. And you seem to be a Progressive. Should I hide my wallet and guns?
_____________________
I'm going to pick a fight
William Wallace, Braveheart
“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind”
Douglas MacArthur
FULL
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Chav Paderborn
in ur sl
Join date: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 192
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08-03-2008 10:06
From: Chris Norse Should I hide my wallet and guns? It might be an idea, comrade. |
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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08-03-2008 10:23
From: Chav Paderborn It might be an idea, comrade. Thought so, usually when someone starts talking about a "progressive" idea, people are gonna be poorer and have less freedom.
_____________________
I'm going to pick a fight
William Wallace, Braveheart
“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind”
Douglas MacArthur
FULL
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Kira Cuddihy
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,375
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08-03-2008 10:25
From: Deira Llanfair You have to soak them in cold water - lots of it.
(No I've never been shot - experience gained from childbirth.) Meat tenderizer takes blood out very well. Oh and Trout if you haven't got that tat yet please have my initials put on your left, upper, inner thigh. Then go get 'em boy. So glad I wasn't here for this one. Personally if I had jumped on a ball that offended me I would have got the heck out of there not gone through the whole menu. Now tell me please, is that thing mod so I can change the color of the balls. Blue is now pink and pink is now blue. /me giggles The last time I looked little kids were still playing "Cowboys & Injuns", "Cops & Robber", whatever, shoot 'em dead. If you don't want to play you don't have to. |
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Adz Childs
Artificial Boy
Join date: 6 Apr 2006
Posts: 865
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08-03-2008 10:50
good point
who is to say that this device depicts a man hitting a woman out cold?
I think its up to the viewer to interperet.
Try this, as an exercise.
Imagine that this pose ball set is used to produce a machinima documentary with graphic depictions of the consequences of domestic abuse.
If you want to imagine this pose ball set is used for someone's sexual gratification, that's up to you. That's your imagination at work.
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http://slnamewatch.com — Second Life Last Name Tracking — Email Alerts — Famous People Lookup — http://adz.secondlifekid.com/ — Artificial Boy — Personal Blog From: Tofu Linden Hmm, there's nothing really helpful there, but thanks for pasting.
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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08-03-2008 11:04
From: Chris Norse Thought so, usually when someone starts talking about a "progressive" idea, people are gonna be poorer and have less freedom. Hey, someone stole my wallet........
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com
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Har Fairweather
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,320
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08-03-2008 11:35
From: Brenda Connolly Hey, someone stole my wallet........ So what else is new? You live in New Jersey, remember? "Most of our elected officials are not indicted." - proposed state slogan |
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Trout Recreant
Public Enemy No. 1
Join date: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 4,873
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08-03-2008 12:05
From: Kira Cuddihy Meat tenderizer takes blood out very well.
Oh and Trout if you haven't got that tat yet please have my initials put on your left, upper, inner thigh. Then go get 'em boy.
So glad I wasn't here for this one. Personally if I had jumped on a ball that offended me I would have got the heck out of there not gone through the whole menu. Now tell me please, is that thing mod so I can change the color of the balls. Blue is now pink and pink is now blue. /me giggles
The last time I looked little kids were still playing "Cowboys & Injuns", "Cops & Robber", whatever, shoot 'em dead. If you don't want to play you don't have to. You want fancy script lettering or block lettering? The inside of my thigh is sort of a tender spot. Plus, I don't know if I want to get that intimate with some tattoo artist. Maybe one of the pretty ones on LA Ink, but my experience shopping around here is that they really aren't that pretty. With all due respect, I'll stick with the Haida eagle and salmon design on my shoulder.
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From: Jerboa Haystack
A Trout Rating (tm) is something to cherish. To flaunt and be proud of. It is something all women should aspire to obtain!
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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08-03-2008 12:05
From: Har Fairweather So what else is new? You live in New Jersey, remember?
"Most of our elected officials are not indicted." - proposed state slogan No truer words have ever been spoken.
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com
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