First come first assumed guilty? (Abuse Report)
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Chaise Seale
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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08-16-2007 05:47
I was just wondering how the Abuse Report system actually works, and whether what the Lindens say when it actually comes down to 'Disciplinary' action, that they investigate the reports individually and even check the server logs is actually true. From: support@secondlife.com Linden Lab individually investigates the circumstances of every Abuse
Report we receive. Following a careful review of our server records and
logs, we have determined that your recent actions violated the Second Life
Community Standards or Terms of Service. If they indeed did check logs and look at the situation, then why would I have been banned for a day for: From: support@secondlife.com Creating scripted objects which in any way singularly or
persistently target another Resident in a way objectionable
to the targeted Resident in a Safe Area or scripting object
that prevent other Residents from entering or participating
in damage-enabled areas. When what actually happened on that day, on that particular event in question, was I was being grieved by two individuals. They both fired at me, and orbited me several times, and I retaliated. To be honest, I don't use the Abuse Report system, as I think it's not needed most of the time and is a tool for the intolerant, but if it can be used to report provoked attacks, then this system can be abused to do the opposite of what it's intended, especially if Lindens don't actually investigate. (Which they clearly didn't from my situation.) So, to simplify the question... First come first assumed guilty? |
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Cole Riel
Registered User
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 252
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08-16-2007 05:55
Don't waste your time filing reports. Most long time residents already know nothing is done and they don't bother filing them. If you want then do so for your own peace of mind but other then this forget it.
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Chaise Seale
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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08-16-2007 06:01
From: Cole Riel Don't waste your time filing reports. Most long time residents already know nothing is done and they don't bother filing them. If you want then do so for your own peace of mind but other then this forget it. If nothing is done, then how come I was banned for a day? I don't think you read the entire post properly, I'll also like to mention, 30 minutes after the event with these grievers, I was banned for a day without question. And it WAS that event, as it clearly states on the E-Mail sent to me. Nothing else happened that day, and that was the only event. |
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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08-16-2007 06:11
The terms "justice" and "Linden Lab" should never appear in the same sentence (except for this one).
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Ann Launay
Neko-licious™
Join date: 8 Aug 2006
Posts: 7,893
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08-16-2007 06:11
Linden Lab seems to be understaffed in this area and therefore likely don't have the resources to question every single person involved in these sorts of events. If your side of the story is not submitted via AR, they're probably going to have to assume the people who spoke up are in the right...don't retaliate in the future and/or be sure to AR defensively.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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08-16-2007 06:15
Retaliation is considered a offense as well. If you aren't the land owner or have land owner powers then your best course of action is to just leave the area, not pull out your weapon and have a "my e-penis" is bigger than yours contest.
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Chaise Seale
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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08-16-2007 06:24
From: Chris Norse Retaliation is considered a offense as well. If you aren't the land owner or have land owner powers then your best course of action is to just leave the area, not pull out your weapon and have a "my e-penis" is bigger than yours contest. So let them win, and hope that the Abuse Report actually gets that 1 in 1,000 chance of actually being seen through? Sure, I'll just let people push me around and use me for their fun, and hope my pathetic squeals will be heard by a 'Deaf Shiny Knight of Blind Justice'. |
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Ann Launay
Neko-licious™
Join date: 8 Aug 2006
Posts: 7,893
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08-16-2007 06:27
You retaliated and they won anyway, didn't they? You were suspended.
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~Now Trout Re-Re-Re-Certified!~ From: someone I am bumping you to an 8.5 on the Official Trout Measuring Instrument of Sluttiness. You are an enigma - on the one hand a sweet, gentle, intelligent woman who we would like to wrap up in our arms and protect, and on the other, a temptress to whom we would like to do all sorts of unmentionable things.
Congratulations and shame on you! You are a bit of a slut.
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Chaise Seale
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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08-16-2007 06:29
From: Ann Launay You retaliated and they won anyway, didn't they? You were suspended. And you agree with that outcome? |
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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08-16-2007 06:30
From: Chaise Seale So let them win, and hope that the Abuse Report actually gets that 1 in 1,000 chance of actually being seen through?
Sure, I'll just let people push me around and use me for their fun, and hope my pathetic squeals will be heard by a 'Deaf Shiny Knight of Blind Justice'. Yup. That's what you should do. Fight back with weapons or pushing by other means will earn you the punishment as well. Sinking to the level of the criminal just makes you one as well. Things you can do: 1) Leave. TP out and go somewhere else. 2) Ignore it. Simply act like they aren't there. Really ticks off Griefers when they can't get the attention mommy never gave them when they were growing up. 3) Rez a box and sit on it, or on anything in the are. You can't be pushed/orbited while sitting. 4) Look into purely defensive shielding. Non-Phys is nice since it lets you "sit" and stil move around (if a bit jerky at times). 5) File an AR. 6) IM the landowner/store owner with the complaint (Be very polite here as they still have to follow the ToS/CS as well so are limited in what they can do). ~Jessy
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When your friend does somethign stupid: From: Aldo Stern Dude, you are a true and good friend, and I love you like the brother that my mom claims she never had, but you are in fact acting like a flaming douche on white toast with a side order of dickknob salsa..maybe you should reconsider this course of action and we go find something else to do.
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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08-16-2007 06:32
From: Chaise Seale And you agree with that outcome? I do. You griefed them. They ARed you. LL acted upon that AR. You DID use a scripted weapon against them, so you were in the wrong. ~Jessy
_____________________
When your friend does somethign stupid: From: Aldo Stern Dude, you are a true and good friend, and I love you like the brother that my mom claims she never had, but you are in fact acting like a flaming douche on white toast with a side order of dickknob salsa..maybe you should reconsider this course of action and we go find something else to do.
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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08-16-2007 06:34
If you had filed an AR as well it may have turned out differerntly. You played right into their hands.
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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08-16-2007 06:40
The flipside of this is that the others involved may very well have been suspended as well. LL's not going to tell you that due to the Privacy Policy.
~Jessy
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When your friend does somethign stupid: From: Aldo Stern Dude, you are a true and good friend, and I love you like the brother that my mom claims she never had, but you are in fact acting like a flaming douche on white toast with a side order of dickknob salsa..maybe you should reconsider this course of action and we go find something else to do.
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Chaise Seale
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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08-16-2007 06:45
From: Jessica Elytis Yup. That's what you should do.
Fight back with weapons or pushing by other means will earn you the punishment as well. Sinking to the level of the criminal just makes you one as well.
No, defending one's self with the same tactics as the offenders doesn't make you 'as bad' because you weren't the one who provoked it in the first place. You shoot a Policeman, you'll be virtually guaranteed to be shot back unless you lay down your weapon (Which in this case they didn't). That doesn't make the Policeman as bad as the offender. It's just this horrible and common way of thinking, where everyone sees the 'Just' way of going about things as being the way OFFENDERS actually take advantage of. You stand there, take their abuse whether it be physical or vocal, then either go somewhere else 'Offender has won' stay there, ignore them, but let them continue 'Offender has won'. You do that while grasping at a fleeting and unreliable if ever at all effective 'AR' system or IM a sim owner who'll most likely not be online. If police aren't there to protect and uphold justice, what do you do? And I have one some major occasions sent an AR against someone, and yet nothing was done. |
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Raudf Fox
(ra-ow-th)
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 5,119
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08-16-2007 06:47
From: Brenda Connolly If you had filed an AR as well it may have turned out differerntly. You played right into their hands. More like you played into their hands the moment you pulled out your own weapon in a non-combat zone. Top that with the fact that you didn't AR also.. well, that puts the cherry on top as far as Linden Labs is concerned. No, they don't carefully investigate and they never have as far as I know. They have stated that they will ban scripted attacks on non-combat land, even if it's done in retaliation, because it is a "no-no." And is this right/fair? No, but then neither is using a scripted weapon in a non-combat zone for ANY REASON.
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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08-16-2007 06:52
From: Chaise Seale No, defending one's self with the same tactics as the offenders doesn't make you 'as bad' because you weren't the one who provoked it in the first place.
You shoot a Policeman, you'll be virtually guaranteed to be shot back unless you lay down your weapon (Which in this case they didn't). That doesn't make the Policeman as bad as the offender. Yes. So if they would have shot a "policeman" (ie a Linden), they would have been banned on the spot. What happened is they shot another citizen who then fired back. The only one making a report was the ones who fired first. Both you and the other were in the wrong. You chose not to file an AR. They did. You were found "guilty" because you were. From: Chaise Seale I And I have one some major occasions sent an AR against someone, and yet nothing was done. And you do not know that. As I said, LL will not tell you when they punish someone else. ~Jessy
_____________________
When your friend does somethign stupid: From: Aldo Stern Dude, you are a true and good friend, and I love you like the brother that my mom claims she never had, but you are in fact acting like a flaming douche on white toast with a side order of dickknob salsa..maybe you should reconsider this course of action and we go find something else to do.
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Chaise Seale
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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08-16-2007 06:52
From: Raudf Fox More like you played into their hands the moment you pulled out your own weapon in a non-combat zone. Yes, because the system plays FOR the offender, and people like you make that true with your blind justice. |
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Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
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08-16-2007 06:57
From: Chaise Seale
You shoot a Policeman, you'll be virtually guaranteed to be shot back unless you lay down your weapon (Which in this case they didn't). That doesn't make the Policeman as bad as the offender.
But you arent a police man and neither was the offender. You shot at a criminal that was shooting at you, thereby not allowing the police man to do his job which set you up as a criminal as well. If you don't like the current form of justice, you voice your opposition to it and try to find ways to effectively get that judicial system overhauled, or you become a vigilante. Police men usually see vigilantes as criminals. |
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Signless Prathivi
Registered User
Join date: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 8
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08-16-2007 06:59
I share the OP's frustration with his situation. A "careful review of our server records" my *ss. The Lindens have stated publicly that they wish for residents to be able to govern and police themselves...yet, in situations like these, they make retaliation against griefing a virtual "crime"...and punish a victim.
That is beyond lame. And I don't, for a single minute, buy the rhetorical hyperbole of a victim "sinking to the level of a criminal" nonsense.
I've been griefed many times...especially when trying to build or script in a sandbox area...and I've also had enough. You can AR all day long until your fingers drop off...but that doesn't save the work you've had ruined...it doesn't return your train of thought...and it does nothing to inspire ANY confidence whatsoever that LL is able to deal with these problems themselves.
So...to answer...
Linden Labs was NOT correct in their course of action.
The OP has EVERY RIGHT to defend himself...and the OP has EVERY RIGHT to retaliate against acts of grief, without being treated as a criminal.
TOS be d*mned...I'll honor it when LL decides to start actively and heavily policing and punishing griefers in-world.
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Morwen Bunin
Everybody needs a hero!
Join date: 8 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,743
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08-16-2007 06:59
From: Chaise Seale No, defending one's self with the same tactics as the offenders doesn't make you 'as bad' because you weren't the one who provoked it in the first place.
Yes, it is. Taking the right in own hands is always wrong. There are "policemen" around to act in such cases (Lindens/land owner). (And don't say that AR's don't work.... just look at yourself). Hmmm.... I will not even react on that you call AR's something for the intolerant... Morwen. |
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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08-16-2007 07:01
From: Signless Prathivi I share the OP's frustration with his situation. A "careful review of our server records" my *ss. The Lindens have stated publicly that they wish for residents to be able to govern and police themselves...yet, in situations like these, they make retaliation against griefing a virtual "crime"...and punish a victim.
That is beyond lame. And I don't, for a single minute, buy the rhetorical hyperbole of a victim "sinking to the level of a criminal" nonsense.
I've been griefed many times...especially when trying to build or script in a sandbox area...and I've also had enough. You can AR all day long until your fingers drop off...but that doesn't save the work you've had ruined...it doesn't return your train of thought...and it does nothing to inspire ANY confidence whatsoever that LL is able to deal with these problems themselves.
So...to answer...
Linden Labs was NOT correct in their course of action.
The OP has EVERY RIGHT to defend himself...and the OP has EVERY RIGHT to retaliate against acts of grief, without being treated as a criminal.
TOS be d*mned...I'll honor it when LL decides to start actively and heavily policing and punishing griefers in-world. [sarcasm]YAY for chaos where only the ones with the best weapons and shields and FPS ability win!!![/sarcasm] *boots that line of "logic" right into the dark, smelly place it belongs.* ~Jessy
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When your friend does somethign stupid: From: Aldo Stern Dude, you are a true and good friend, and I love you like the brother that my mom claims she never had, but you are in fact acting like a flaming douche on white toast with a side order of dickknob salsa..maybe you should reconsider this course of action and we go find something else to do.
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Signless Prathivi
Registered User
Join date: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 8
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08-16-2007 07:05
From: Morwen Bunin Yes, it is. Taking the right in own hands is always wrong. There are "policemen" around to act in such cases (Lindens/land owner). No, there aren't. There are Lindens, in-world...but there is no "police" service available in SL. LL allows the sale of scripted grief weapons...but doesn't allow someone to use them in self-defense? Lame. If you're attacked...your only recourse is to file an AR...when we all know that LL is practically terminally understaffed in that area? Lame. This is LL's problem...and LL needs to FIX it, instead of punishing people for acts of self-defense. |
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Chaise Seale
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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08-16-2007 07:06
From: Pie Psaltery But you arent a police man and neither was the offender. You shot at a criminal that was shooting at you, thereby not allowing the police man to do his job which set you up as a criminal as well. Self defense. The evidence is there in the logs as well. I'll just throw away my will to defend myself, as justice can only be carried out by a 'Policeman'. 'Policemen' are just quite literally the bigger, more commonly seen and known vigilante group, whatever they say, goes, even if it is wrong and morally conflicting. But, why do we have to put up with that? What kind of justice targets someone for defending themselves? It's just ashame that the many sheep will follow the flock, even if the flock is heading towards a pack of wolves... |
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Signless Prathivi
Registered User
Join date: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 8
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08-16-2007 07:06
From: Jessica Elytis [sarcasm]YAY for chaos where only the ones with the best weapons and shields and FPS ability win!!![/sarcasm]
*boots that line of "logic" right into the dark, smelly place it belongs.*
~Jessy Ummm...that's sort of the way it is right NOW, Jess. Griefers can show up with endless strings of alt accounts and blaze away all day...and residents can do NOTHING but AR them. Lame. |
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Morwen Bunin
Everybody needs a hero!
Join date: 8 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,743
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08-16-2007 07:09
From: Signless Prathivi Ummm...that's sort of the way it is right NOW, Jess. Griefers can show up with endless strings of alt accounts and blaze away all day...and residents can do NOTHING but AR them.
Lame. Nothing lame about it.... Reacting on griefers as the OP did, gives only trouble and solves nothing. The OP is the prime example. Morwen. |