How to cope with my own bigotry?
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Angelique LaFollette
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,595
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12-02-2007 19:30
From: Erin Talamasca Sorry, but I don't think Eben has been prejudiced. I think he made it quite clear that he's ok with people doing their thing, but isn't comfortable with having to live with certain things within his space. I'm quite happy that some people like feet (to pick the most innocent example I could!) but I'm not going to be comfortable sitting in my living room hearing my neighbour moan over how sexy her friends toes are. That doesn't make me an Evil Anti Footist.
Mature land allows us to do mature things on our own land - but social respect should, I think, make us consider the people that affects, and work something out that won't upset the people we live near. I guess the main problem here is language and I don't trust BabelFish to come up with a good translation of "please could you contain your porn to somewhere I can't hear it" without saying something like "I really like chess! Play in my house?!" Eben Himself brought up the issue of his prejudice, But i Grant what you are saying is true. The Core of the problem here is that his neighbor, Chess Player, or fetishist, is Interfering with his enjoyment of his property. The majority of my Post to him Dealt Specificly with that, and ways around it Other than Confrontation. Eben HAS wondered whether his feelings towards the lifestyle might Interfere with his Dealing with this issue and resolving it peacefully, and i have shown they Needn't. One of the Steps i suggested Is, of course, Eliminating, or Attenuating his Feelings by Greater understanding. Nowhere do i Suggest that he just Roll over and take it. If a neighbor is interfering with your use of your property you are right to try to alter that, But Altering it doesn't mean bringing out the big guns. It doesn't mean turning it Into a war. The problem is, people have become so confrontational that their response to Every petty annoyance is to go Scortched Earth. "All or Nothing". You Create a Lot more good neighbors by being one yourself. Just as in RL it's a Good idea all around to get to Know your neighbors, and Learn to live Peacefully, and Cordially with them. Sometimes that means they have to make Changes, Sometimes that means YOU have to make changes. I think if your prepared to ask your neighbors to make accomodations you need to be Just as ready to make them yourself. As for ;"please could you contain your porn to somewhere I can't hear it" your probably Going to run into trouble with ANY Translator, Or even saying that Phrase to another English speaker if you can't think of a more polite, or Diplomatic way of Phrasing it. The request is reasonable, But the Phrasing is Rude. You Could say "Are you aware your more intimate conversations Can be heard in My Home?" If you begin a Conversation like that, Less Judgemental in it's Phrasing, you'll probably get what you want faster, and with less hard feelings. Phrasing it your way, you are most likely to Get a two word response dealing with Sexual Intercourse, and Travel. People DO seem to Create most of their own Problems by Not understanding that there are ways you Just don't Talk to people. Angel. |
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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12-02-2007 19:37
Eben, i'm sorry to be so blunt, but it's really just not any of your business. Put up a wall and ignore her. If she is too loud, ask her to quiet down. If she refuses, AR her or relocate your build higher, or move. Other than that, all you can do is ignore her.
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Dnali Anabuki
Still Crazy
Join date: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,633
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12-02-2007 20:07
I understand how you feel Eben. When I first arrived in SL, the BDSM thing completely freaked me out because it was something I had no experience with.
However, I now have two friends who have "Masters" and I love them dearly. They know that I'm a "vanilla" person but they accept me and I accept them. What changed is I learned (a lot from Angelique on these forums actually) more about the lifestyle and saw the art in it and how it mattered to my friends to surrender their will to another. Still will never interest me but now I admire them for the courage of listening to what they wanted to try and doing it. Just like I admire the folk who are open about being gay.
And, as Angelique has said, it is the slave who often has the power in the relationship.
As far as this person being your neighbor, anyone should be careful that their sounds don't disturb the person next door. They sound like folk who are new to expressing their lifestyle and haven't gotten to the point of being adult about it. Suggesting the IMs is a great idea, as it muting, etc. And sky living is wonderful for peace and quiet.
Good luck and congrats for choosing tolerance.
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Angelique LaFollette
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,595
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12-02-2007 20:22
Merci Dnali.  I have several friends who are not in the lifestyle, One of my Dearest friends, whom i have known since my days in TSO is Cocoanut Koala, a frequent Poster here. She has never hesitated to state that My lifestyle isn't right for her. I have a great deal of respect for her in that, despite her Objections to my lifestyle, she Came and explored anyway, and she has gotten to know me as a person, and Knows we are not "All Bad". But really, this isn't so much a Lifestyle Issue as it is one of simply getting along, and it's really Not that hard. Angel. |
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Lana Tomba
Cheap,Fast or Good Pick 1
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 746
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hmmm
12-02-2007 21:25
yea welcome to the world of parcel ownership. Privacy is a luxury in Second Life. Some people can't afford it..some can.Im sure there are people offended by the rainbow flag or pink triangle..but as SL exists and grows and changes we are faced with the life long lesson of live and let live.
If you dont wanna hear her xcite genitalia..mute those objects..Cntrl Alt T..and then look between her legs..on her arse and boobies..mute those objects.
If it really bugs you that much..maybe you should look into buying a larger parcel of land..or an island.
Also the suggestion of placing a huge wall infront of her parcel is an option.
Ive spent the last year and a half or so of building on private sims..living on private parcels and recently was invited to an all out NOOB villa..so many textures...different heights of buildings..all mismatched..it seriously looked like a sandbox had thrown up 100 times 10 on itself and then invited people to live there...So..yes there are drawbacks to being poor in SL...but thats part of the game..to move up..make your own niche..and learn how to create a hermitage where you dont have to deal with others idiosencresies.
~Lana Tomba
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Derevaun Debevec
Caution: frequent stops
Join date: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 67
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12-02-2007 21:46
As a fellow Southerner, I think I understand the OP's difficulty with the slavery thing. Easy answers mostly evaporate as one experiences slavery's active legacy. I'd give up a lot in life if I thought it would desensitize words like slavery. It just ain't that simple. But I do have some simple suggestions: if you can hear their chat, they can hear yours. Get an authoritative translation of "I can hear you" (and/or maybe "please use IMs"  and say it when you're as close as you'll ever be to the land border. Hopefully they'll go to IMs and you'll only have to mute her hardware, if that's possible across ban lines. Ideally you wouldn't have to mute your neighbor, because that would prevent future diplomacy. Good luck, and be sweet! |
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Conan Godwin
In ur base kilin ur d00ds
Join date: 2 Aug 2006
Posts: 3,676
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12-02-2007 22:40
Don't be ashamed of who you are. If she has the right to be a sexual deviant, you have as much right to be an enormous bigot. Revel in that and utilise your right to live your bigotted lifestyle, says I!
The Beastie Boys fought, and possibly died, for you to have that right....oh wait, no that was your right to party. Forget what I just said.
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FD Spark
Prim & Texture Doodler
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 4,697
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12-02-2007 23:05
As someone who once for numerous years was active member of a Alternative lifestyle community I will tell you from experience even in those circles there is people who have prejudices and fixed ideas about what is acceptable public "sex" behavior and isn't acceptable.
One wouldn't do a certain type scene in public dungeon party that disallowed it.
Even in public play spaces there are scenes even if they aren't against any policy that do make other players uncomfortable and people will approach the people involved and often
do say something.
I know this from experience because the scenes I was in made others uncomfortable and was approached even though I was doing nothing that was against the dungeon parties policies.
But real issue isn't about prejudice in my opinion what I see is this person is new and may not be aware she can be overheard or how to manage her prims, and the fact she speaks another language.
And this makes a very difficult situation for you.
Hopefully you will be able to resolve this successfully. Good luck.
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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12-02-2007 23:10
Some words of advice. Choose any that resonate.
Move.
Mute.
Raise.
Estate.
Join the fun.
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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12-03-2007 00:54
From: Erin Talamasca ....... I guess the main problem here is language and I don't trust BabelFish to come up with a good translation of "please could you contain your porn to somewhere I can't hear it" without saying something like "I really like chess! Play in my house?!" "please could you contain your porn to somewhere I can't hear it" Babelfish - English to French and then put the translation back through French to English "you could want to contain your porn some share with me cannot hear it" ?? Quoi ??? Ah! This person wants to share in my porn and they also want it louder.
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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12-03-2007 02:09
Well considreing the slavery content here is 100% volountary, it's pretty much just a lot of slap and tickle really for a lot of people.So really the BDSM here isn't any more offensive than regular sex, possibly less so to many.
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Gummi Richthofen
Fetish's Frasier Crane!
Join date: 3 Oct 2006
Posts: 605
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12-03-2007 02:31
Wooooah there neddy.
a) You had to go to a translation site to get your complaint over to her, right? But on the OTHER hand you understand her obscure French sado-sexual slang? Jeepers, that's some trick. Or is this like the old joke about the grandma complaining about the nudists she can see from her bedroom - when she sit on top of the wardrobe and leans out the window?
(ok ok I know, "mmmmmm" means the same thing in French and English)
b) What you are suffering from even has it's own term - in the excessively wordy and overcategorized universe of online kink, it's called "squick". One man's kink is another man's emetic. The issue of responsibility for "squick" is a bit like a dispute over fenceposts in the garden - both sides benefit from upkeep of privacy, neither side wants to make the first move.
c) There is, believe it or not, a bit of history to the gay movement and BDSM. There have been huge eruptions and splits and catfights and what-have-you because the "straighter" gays have come to believe that the BDSM gays are punishing one another - for BEING GAY. This brings about the somewhat odd situation of the vanilla world being rather more accepting of BDSM than some sub-tribes of Planet Pooftah
d) You're dealing with French BDSM. This is quite different from British BDSM and definitely not subject to the same rules as US BDSM. Most likely if you had the cultural cues right you could get what you want by a simple "Madame..." at the right moment. Assuming, of course, that "Madame" isn't an unemployed Muslim parcours stormtrooper holed up in a tower block in Marseilles...
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Void Singer
Int vSelf = Sing(void);
Join date: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,973
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12-03-2007 03:10
just a thought, you say you neighbor is a submissive. have you though to perhaps ask if said master speaks english any better?
even if not, mentioning to this person that you can hear them because the walls are close, and this is a bit embarrassing for you, could they please use IM's when they notice other people close on the map, can get you amazing results.
when using translator sites, always use short pointed sentences. "Hi. I can hear you. I am embarrassed. could you use IM? sorry. thank you."
as for 'bigotry', not everyone gets the draw of Dom(me)/sub type relationships, and people that do, know this. You can get some good points of view if you ask nicely, and even if you find it's not interesting to you, you at least learned a bit and it's not likely to be something that triggers prejudice in you. this is true of almost anything, once you understand what's behind something, it stops being a prejudice, and starts being an informed decision/choice... and many times you find out it wasn't what you thought, and it doesn't raise the same negative reaction in you...
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Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
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12-03-2007 04:21
From: Lana Tomba ..and then look between her legs..on her arse and boobies..mute those objects.
And people ask me why I even bother reading the forums anymore. |
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Tana Smirnov
Registered User
Join date: 15 Oct 2006
Posts: 75
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12-03-2007 05:45
"DO as thy wilt and harm none". I agree with you that this an inner problem that you are struggling with. Perhaps she and her friends are homophobic and find you just as repulsive. We all have our differences and fetishes. It is what makes us unique. If you can't come to terms with "yourself" over this issue then it is best that you sell your property and relocate into a pg area.
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Cherry Czervik
Came To Her Senses
Join date: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 3,680
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12-03-2007 06:03
From: Eben Slade This morning, I logged on to find someone's house sticking through the walls of my own home. I checked the owner's profile and found that the offending home belongs to a French lady who is not very good with English (by her own admission.)
Wanting to be a good neighbor, I went to a translation site and wrote out a nice notecard letter welcoming her to the neighborhood and asking politely if she would mind making sure that her prims are on her property.
An hour or so later, she appeared and declined my notecard. Wanting to be cordial, I sent her an IM with the exact same message I had gotten translated. She apologized and re-positioned her house, erected ban lines around her property, and then began decorating her parcel. Here's where I get to the point.
Apparently, my new neighbor is a fan of BDSM. She installed a few cages and Excite! accessories and other paraphenalia, and then began inviting her "Master" and friends over to check it all out. I didn't have to cam over to see it; she had problems placing it all and "accidentally" deleted her walls and roof a couple of times.
Now, I'm all for people having their own kink. I'm gay, liberal, and pro-choice; I'm not about to tell someone else what to do with their (virtual) body, but I find that I'm having a real problem with this. We're in a mature sim, she's on her property, and within her own walls (when they were up,) but I have this irrational disdain for the whole BDSM thing. Slavery, even consentual slavery, is a little offensive to many Americans raised in the south. There's so much a 3D environment like SL can offer, why limit it to cybersex?
She just moved in today, so I don't want to be rude. I'm tempted to ask her to role-play wearing a ballgag at all times, but that's forcing my wants on her and her guests. Beyond that, she does not speak very much English, so I'm afraid I will be translated as being a prude and an ass. I know I could spam the wall of my property with particles and sounds and try to drive her off, but two wrongs do not make a right.
So, do I just bite the bullet and change my attitude to be more accepting of these people and their particular fetishes? Pretend that "Slave" is a happy, free term? Mute her and hope visitors to my home can also ignore the French grunts of passion? Do I move and possibly take a loss on the sale of my property? I don't know much about the whole BDSM scene; is there some nice way to ask her to knock it off? She would be in her rights to ask you to knock off being gay in return. Clearly that would be completely unacceptable - so is expecting her to knock it off. The above post re a PG area is good advice - or buy a larger plot where you are out of sight/hearing of anyone. Or just MUTE them. |
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Raudf Fox
(ra-ow-th)
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 5,119
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12-03-2007 06:19
From: Pie Psaltery And people ask me why I even bother reading the forums anymore. Yep, it's pure entertainment value and free at that On topic, maybe opening a discussion with the lady might not be a bad idea. Explain to her, politely (or find someone who does speak the language to explain to her) why this bothers you. It doesn't have to be about the BDSM aspect, simply that the talking sex objects are.. well, distracting when you could be working or relaxing in SL. There is NOTHING wrong in asking politely/respectfully about that, is there?
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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12-03-2007 06:25
If her house is still encroaching on your property, you have an issue there, otherwise, the options offered by others are good.
I do wish the comparisions between the SLCartoon Play BDSM, or even the RL article, and the horrors of actual slavery would cease. It is a disservice to people who have suffered in my opinion, and I sometimes feel it is at best a subconscious attempt to rationalize distaste at someone's chosen lifestyle. but that's just me.
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Infrared Wind
Gridologist
Join date: 7 Jan 2007
Posts: 662
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12-03-2007 06:30
I've been in a similar situation...which worked itself out in time.
Buy her some flowers. Not kidding. You can find a bunch of
roses for next to nothing. Maybe she won't take them...but you
won't know unless you try. And then at least your tried.
Write something to her and use Babelfish to translate it...or
better find a French-speaking community in world and ask
them to translate.
Making peace is tough...but easier than war.
- Infrared
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Isabeau Imako
P'tite Poulette
Join date: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 2,335
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12-03-2007 06:42
From: Brenda Connolly If her house is still encroaching on your property, you have an issue there, otherwise, the options offered by others are good.
I do wish the comparisions between the SLCartoon Play BDSM, or even the RL article, and the horrors of actual slavery would cease. It is a disservice to people who have suffered in my opinion, and I sometimes feel it is at best a subconscious attempt to rationalize distaste at someone's chosen lifestyle. but that's just me. "a subconscious attempt to rationalize distaste" Wow that's a mouth full (heehee). Probably, it's just confusing because the same word is used- to mean two different things and whips are (were) sometimes used in both cases. If it's between two or more consenting adults, like you said -someone's CHOSEN lifestyle- then, yes, the distaste is somewhat bewildering. |
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Cheyenne Marquez
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 940
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12-03-2007 07:09
She probably doesn't even know you can hear her and would be quite embarrased if you were to tell her you could. Being into BDSM does not mean you are an exhibitionist. A kind reminder telling her that you could hear her could very well stop the activity on the spot with a very heartfelt "i am sorry i did not know you could hear me."  You haven't even given her the opportunity by mentioning this to her before bringing it to a forum. I understand your need to come to a resolution but I honestly feel that your first option should have been to discuss the matter with her kindly. She could be very new and unaware she can be heard. A very coy "Are you aware you can be heard," could have resolved this quite quickly and painlessly. |
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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12-03-2007 07:09
From: FD Spark ...there is people who have prejudices and fixed ideas about what is acceptable public "sex" behavior and isn't acceptable. except this is not public, but private land, in an enclosed building. the neighbor temporarily deleted a wall to rebuild one, which is why he could temporarily see it. i'm sure that while building, no sex was occuring... unless she is extraordinary, and then i'd like to meet her.  |
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Lindal Kidd
Dances With Noobs
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 8,371
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12-03-2007 07:27
You've already taken the first step...you've recognized that the problem's with yourself, not your neighbor. (Mostly, anyway. She does seem to flaunt her lifestyle, doesn't she?)
I share your personal distaste for BDSM and slavery, so I understand your problem. I find that it helps to keep reminding yourself that this is their choice. These are not slaves by capture or imprisonment. They can leave at any time they want.
I saw an ad the other day for a "submissive" third party SL viewer. It wouldn't let you do anything your master didn't allow...chat with others, move without his/her permission, etc.
But any submissive using one could simply log on with another, standard viewer at any time. So the whole thing is consensual. Same with all the BDSM stuff. Both parties have to say yes.
I have things that I like that other people find distasteful, too. I'm a smoker, for instance. Some people don't like that, not even when it's SL and non-carcinogenic and odor-free. So the shoe's not always on the other foot, sometimes it's on mine. I just try to be polite and considerate to everyone, as you're trying to do with your neighbor.
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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12-03-2007 07:29
From: Kyrah Abattoir it's her land eh what he said  (its her little square if you want to not have that problem by an island sim that will not be attached to anything otherwise you have to uh well only look at your side of things and ignore the other side of things..)
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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12-03-2007 07:45
From: Isabeau Imako "a subconscious attempt to rationalize distaste" Wow that's a mouth full (heehee). Probably, it's just confusing because the same word is used- to mean two different things and whips are (were) sometimes used in both cases. If it's between two or more consenting adults, like you said -someone's CHOSEN lifestyle- then, yes, the distaste is somewhat bewildering. Yeah well I wrote that before I had my coffee this morning, after waking up to find an inch of ice on my car. And I'm going on a little vacation after tomorrow, so I'm kinda cranky, sorry. 
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