who's really in it just for the money?

There is a difference between discouraging and encouraging people to learn first. No one is saying that people shouldn't start a business, but there has been plenty of good advice to go out and observe first. No one in here has said that anyone is too stupid or lazy to run a business, but people coming into SL have the mistaken mindset that what they are doing is going to be worth their time without realizing how much of a time investment it is... in ANY industry.

I have come into contact with a few people who came here to make money. Once they realize how hard it is for so little return on investment, most will not continue on, and some may learn to enjoy SL for what it primarily is - entertainment.

I have an rl ex boyfriend who's just getting into SL, and he thinks it's easy money. I have yet to have the conversation with him, but I am going to correct that perception. Nothing comes easy, rl or sl, unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

Nobody has said anything different, unless you mean just spending time in SL getting to know the place, but the way that creating a business was being portrayed earlier in this thread was incorrect.

That's right, but it was being argued that some people would think that they are too stupid or lazy if they accepted what was being said, and either didn't start a business, or started an unsuccessful one.

I beg to differ. To the best of my knowledge, people generally come into SL to partake in a 3-D, multi-user, online environment, often very similar to 3-D games they play, or just to see what it's about.

Ok. So that's a few out of how many tens of thousands? It doesn't amount the "many people come into SL...."

I beg to differ again. An SL venture is a lot easier to make money in than an RL venture, because SL ventures cost so little, and competing at the same level as the existing competition can be done almost instantly in SL - unlike RL.

Correct it, or give him your perception of it, Cristalle? It sounds like there's a big difference between the two.

I'm not going to go point by point, Phil. The bottom line is as I said before - people coming here thinking that they are going to make money hand over fist have a rude awakening coming to them when they balance it against the time investment. Unless you have the luxury of being in SL every day all day, it's not going to happen without a significant, prolonged investment of time, making it a second job. For people who have all day to spend in SL, it's just fewer days that you have to do it in, but arguably the same amount of hours invested, varying with the ease creation comes, or how aggressively one markets their business, land or otherwise.

SL isn't easy money. It takes time, and the initial return on the time investment is paltry. You keep forgetting that you had the luxury of being here all day, and that is something that the vast majority of SL business owners don't have. Given the same strictures of time as the rest of us, you might feel differently.

I'm not going to discourage my ex, but he has even less time than me to get into this game. He isn't a 3D modeller or artist, and his scripting skills are on par with mine - we're both semi-literate hacks that know enough to fix and make a few things, but not polished programmers. It would take a larger time investment than he can make to make the kind of money you do on a daily basis.

To be very honest I'd have to see a RL bank statement and some timesheets before I believed anyone made a reasonable ROI on anything they did in SL.

The biggest investment you make in anything you do in SL is time. If you are in SL for 8 hours a day on average, then you could very easily be holding down a second job and being paid RL money, building RL experience and an RL CV.

In my view it's all about what the economists call Opportunity Cost, what could you make in RL with the same time, effort and talent.

I've read the urban myths as much as anyone. Yes I believe some of the hype and I believe that some people are making a reasonable living in SL, but given the same level of commitment I still believe they could make a whole lot more in RL.

Also there is the small matter of exit strategy. Although the Lindens make a big deal of the whole IP thing, as far as I can see any assets you accumulate in SL, pretty much stay in SL. You can spend a lifetime becoming the best scripter/architect/designer/builder in SL and none of that is really transferable to RL. owning the IP of something that can only exist within a proprietary environment owned by someone else means diddly.

We have also all heard of the SL poster girl. The SL Escort turned Property Tycoon. If the hyperbole is to be believed then if she'd applied the same huge talents in RL, she'd be lot wealthier than she is now. Also, not to be too cynical, in my opinion money isn't money until it's sitting in your bank account in a nice hard RL currency.

So what is SL? It's fun and if you do well in SL it may point to talents in business or design that you can build on in RL to make RL money. Note I said "talent", because as I've said before, I don't believe that there is a SL "skill" which you can readily transfer to RL.

Ok, now I'm going to get rebuttals left and right giving me exceptions that prove the rule. Without hard proof, I still don't believe that time and energy spent in SL is anywhere near as profitably spent as if it had been invested in RL.

On the whole you are right, Merchant. The time spent for the amount earned in SL is huge compared to RL. But SL is a place to be, fun, hobby, whatever, and SL businesses are mostly hobby businesses - something interesting to do in SL - leisure. But you are not right about this:-

You also said...

I can assure you that money earned in SL is being moved out of SL and into RL bank accounts as real money. I do it, and my bank account reflects it.

There's another thing to consider. It takes a great deal of time to build up a business to the extent that it provides a good RL income, but once it's been built up, *very* little time is needed to keep it at that level, depending on what the business is. In fact, for businesses that sell things there are only SL glitches to deal with - where people pay but don't receive. Of course, a person can continue to work and build, but it isn't necessary. That's a big plus over most RL businesses. So the initial time investment is huge for the early returns, but it can grow to being much less time-consuming than an RL equivalent.

I'm not sure what kind of business it is you're talking about specifically, but that certainly isn't true for any content related business. You're forgetting the biggest investment that's required which is time. Time to learn the tools. Time to create a large range of product. Time to get noticed and to start generating word of mouth. The investment of time required can be very large. You might arrive with a high skill level in 3d design and texturing, but you still have to learn how to adapt those skills for creating SL content with all of its idiosyncracies. If you think anyone can be competing at the same level as established and experienced SL content creators "almost instantly" you are very much mistaken. That's why it's so important that people invest that time because they enjoy it, not because they expect some kind of instant return.

Hi Phil,

Glad to hear you're making some money from SL, as I say though, I still doubt that it's as much as you would have made in RL with the same level of commitment.

I understand that SL is fun.. that's why I'm there after all I was just answering the OP.

On you're final point though, I sort of disagree.

Apart from land speculation, everything else in SL has value purely as IP. A new design, a new script etc. To an extent it is very like the RL software market place.

Any similar investment in development may also be protected in RL (and a lot more successfully I might add), by patents and copyrights. You would therefore make money by sitting on your RL bum and dreaming up new things. Franchises are the easiest RL way to cash in like this.

As I say though, this is just my point of view. ROI is all relative and doesn't always have to boil down to the filthy dollar..

(Remember, he's an advocate of traffic bots to "even the competition out." Standby for him to tell you how he is competing at the same level by way of his 16 traffic bots in 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1.)

This also isn't really true. Old content will continue to sell over time, but it will bring ever diminishing returns. The only way to sustain an SL business over the long haul is to be continually creating new content. It's much like running a website. If you don't keep adding fresh content, you lose your audience. There's also constant downward pressure on prices as new entrants to the market tend to price below existing content. The dynamics are more complex than you're suggesting.

Sorry. I should have been more clear. By competing almost instantly, I meant that when everything is ready, entering the search results at the same level as established businesses can be done almost instantly.

You do have a point about the ongoing work in your later post. But the amount of ongoing work (time) that is needed is still a lot less than it would be in RL.

Hi Merchant.

Excellent post in the other thread, btw.

In most cases, you would be right about the ability to make more in RL, given the same amount of time put in, but not necessary in all cases, although I can only go by my own experiences.

The amount of time we can put in for such tiny RL returns is huge, but imagine the RL money that some businesses must be making - Xcite, for instance. They continue to add and improve, but the time they spend doing it must be very small for the amount they must take out.

I've only been doing my shop for a few months, but it's in a field that most people want - not necessarily my products, but products like them. For the last month I haven't added anything much, and sales have continued to increase. I'll need to add/change as time goes by to keep the same level of sales, but I don't need to put anything like the time into it that I would need to put in into work in RL.

Hi again Phil,

You've got me interested now.

I'll pop along and have a look at your shop next time I'm in world.

I'm always willing to be proved wrong, as long as I learn something along the way

The "build once, profit forever myth" in SL is complete and utter nonsense.

To keep an SL business going at a good profitable rate requires constant attention:
1. Keep releasing new products. (This also involves, creating new sales material, updating external shopping sites, posting in the appropriate forums)
2. Constantly update existing ones to incorporate shifting expectations and technological advances in the client and world. (This also involves incorporating update delivery systems, and updating those when SL glitches break them)
3. Answer dozens to hundreds of customer service calls, esp. when dealing with more complex content. (This also involves, setting up a reliable support system)
4. Bugfixing existing content, on result of customer feedback
5. Constant attention to advertising/marketing budgets in reflection to incoming profits. (This also involves incorporating new 'search' strategies, decisions in how to generate traffic, organize occasional events to attract public)
6. Constant checking of your products compared to updates of client/world, and 'fix' broken stuff
7. Management of your shops/sim, both by making sure they 'run' well, and by redesigning to fit the changing content for sale.


I've been running a business in SL for several years, and it seems my experiences differ quite a bit from your suggestions. SL nowadays is a cutthroat economic environment, where you need to spend a LOT of attention and never get any rest, to keep your business profitable on a respectable level.

It's unwise to look at a business only a couple of months old to derive conclusions from.

Hi Damanios,

I think that even in SL each business person's experience can be different but no less profitable, otherwise there would be no such thing as competition

As an example the experiences and overheads of a retailer will be different from that of an OEM such as yourself.

Also I'd be interested in your perspective on this topic.

Given that you obviously spend a lot of time on your SL business and are relatively successful within the SL business community, do you feel that as an individual in RL this is literally the most profitable use of your time and talents?

Would you not make more money if you focussed all this commitment, talent and hard work into a RL venture?

I've no axe to grind on this subject, just genuinely interested in the economics and opportunity cost of pursuing business activities in SL rather than RL...

I can't answer for Damanios, but in my opinion, yes. Applying the same skill set for my RL work as I do for my SL work, the RL return versus time spent is much greater. That said, there are aspects of my SL business that provide benefits my RL job doesn't. Namely that I can just make product when I'm in the mood to do it, throw it up, and if it resonates with people they'll buy it. Some products never create a return, but some continue to sell well long after they were created. That makes it a pretty low stress way to make some extra income, but I definitely wouldn't want to depend on it as a primary income. Taken as a whole and factoring in all the products that never generate much return compared to those that do it doesn't compare favorably with RL contract work where the financial return on time invested is fixed. Of course that's representative only of my own individual experience. YMMV.

For me, SL is not my primary source of income. Although i've been quite successful in SL business at times, my RL activities still do earn me a 'little' more
The fact is though, my RL profession doesn't allow me the same level of freedom to set my own deadlines, deliver the quality i like, or offer the same level of creativity.
With SL it's hard work, but your creations are yours.

I realized from the start though, that business in SL is very very risky. You're dealing with a hyped platform, very short retention spans, a constantly changing economic climate and a flawed technical environment. Basically you're still dependent of a lot of factors you have no direct control over.
This was the main reason I never considered SL as a long term RL career opportunity.
Of course i was/am in the comfortable situation to have a choice in this matter.


I'm probably one of several people who became more or less succesful in SL purely by chance. When starting, it was never my intention to make any RL profit out of it.

Sadly profit in SL is a two edged sword.
On the one hand, it gives you the satisfaction that your creations are appreciated (and of course, a nice little $ bonus).
On the other hand, as I've stated in my previous post. The bigger your business, the more time you spend AWAY from the creative process. You will see your SL time gobbled up in trying to 'keep' the business alive.

Atm, I am at a crossroads in this respect. The continuous effort to keep running a decent profit, constantly renewing yourself, and keeping up with competition and customer support, is eating so much of my time and energy, that it directly influences my creativity and eventually my enjoyment of SL.

It think it's something to consider for everybody who is dreaming of a successful business in SL. Even success has it's thorns.

I've got a startup business both in RL and SL - the RL one is now 7 years old and doing great, the SL one is 2 years old and still screaming upward in what people have been calling a flat (or worse) SL economy.

It would be crass to give bank statements, but if I had to echo a sentiment it would be pretty close to what Damanios is saying.

The difference is bluntly this: doing business in a mature, vs an emerging market.

It's a different skillset, to be sure. Some can't handle emerging markets. Some can't handle the boredom of a mature industry, trying to win mindshare away from businesses that have held niche industries in a headlock for 50 years or more.

I'm 43 years old, and had someone said in high school "I'm going to be a website designer" or a "certified IT professional" or work in the mobile telephone industry we would have looked at them like they were insane.

Because those things didn't exist yet.

I wonder how airplanes, computers and automobiles sounded to 'sane' people back in the day. Make a living off that? Crazy! Or crazy like a fox.

I've noticed a huge chilling effect on the private estate market on the grid - a sort of shaking out, if you will. When the price of private regions went up and the monthly tier skyrocketed it killed a lot of dreams. Much of my expected competition was killed before it was born, along with it. I don't celebrate that, but as time goes on and the SL market matures expect to see more shakeouts.

Vision - correct vision - is rewarded by markets. Which is why I deeply respect Anshe in a business sense.

It's not "what could Anshe have done better, doing in RL?" - it's "why didn't you see what she saw, when she did?" You would have been a millionaire by now inside of two years, if you had. Incidentally, there was far more pessimism on the grid in 2004 than there is now, by a longshot.

Something to think about.

I am in SL to make money, but I'm not ashamed of it by any means. Two years ago I got sick, my body just shut down under extreme pressure... and the prospect of me ever being able to work full time again is slim. I've been out of work for two years, but it wasn't so bad at first because my husband made good money.

Then my husband blew out his knee, had surgery, and the surgery wasn't done properly. He blew his knee out again a few months after going back to work, this time requiring a full replacement-which wont be covered by insurance and is looking to cost about 85k. We are still trying to get his surgery done so he can go back to work, but it's a long process. We found a program to help both of us retrain, and to pay for his knee but it's a government program so there is a ton of red tape, waiting, more waiting, and then waiting some more to get there.

SL is a lifesaver for both of us, we are still learning our crafts, but fo us it's a full-time career... if we spend less than 40 hours a week working it's very rare. 10 hour days for both of us are not uncommon.

Not many people have the "luxury" of working in SL full time, and taking it from a want to a need creates a pressure that keeps you going. WE don't WANT to make money in SL, we NEED to.

The learning curve is steep if you want to offer something unique and marketable. That's going to keep some people out right away. It's not enough to know one or two skills, my husband and I built, texture, animate, and script on a daily basis. A good portion of our work time still goes to learning new skills.

The competition is fierce, and in many areas saturated. Expecting to make money on anything that doesn't rely on individulized skill or talent is going to be tough. SL does not need another sex club. It's been done, and done to death unless you have a truly unique idea it's going to be an uphill battle. Researching the competition heavily is a must... make sure you aren't re-re-re-inventing the wheel.

Even if you are marketing a skill based product, such as clothing or skins, you still have to set yourself apart. If you don't find a niche, then you get lost in the shuffle.
So the opportunity is out there, and we've grown along with our business. We started on a 512 I got with the first land program, we expanded to a 1024, then to nearly 9000... we're still growing as we go. We are working our way to a sim, and the out of pocket expense has been minimal.

All of that being said, we have made a profit since the first month we opened. Not A LOT, but some... it's enough to keep us going, and it gets a little better every month.

We also live in the sticks... as in two hours from the nearest fast food, wal-mart, or stoplight. For those who can no longer work outside of the home, and don't have local opportunities to work at home, SL offers something for us that would have been impossible even a few years ago.

We also get a healthy social life as a bonus, we spend a lot of time hanging out in the store and visiting with customers. We get to find out who buys our avatars, and what they would like to see next. We work while we are doing it... so for us it's a perfect fit.

If you are determined, you can do anything... business in SL really isn't all that different than RL. It takes time, commitment, talent, and customer service. An eye for opportunities, and an ability to see a need and fill it.

Some great points. I hope you both find continuing success Boshemia.