who's really in it just for the money?

I said "whose interest is sufficient to actually do it" - you quoted it. I've also said other things that are required, but the words "sufficient interest" seem to cover them all. A person with sufficient interest will take time to learn how to do things, and practise doing them. And that person will enter the market boldly, rather than hedging the bets by paying 50L a week for a small mall shop, which is highly likely to fail.

I disagree. If a business fails in SL (assuming that the product is good), it's because of the person whose business it is. It looks like we'll have to agree to differ about that.

We are not discussing artistic talent. Of course there are people in SL who are artistically more talented than others, and who make excellent artwork, but the pictures that I sell are better than those - they were painted by world-renowned masters. In my store, people often tell me that I'm very talented. I disagree but I don't tell them - I thank them instead. It doesn't take talent. It takes ability, and that is something that most people can acquire.

I mentioned shops in malls earlier. I described them as pussyfooting about rather than being bold. It's possible for a successful business to start in such a shop, but there is very high likelihood of failing by doing it that way. I could go into details about it's likely to fail, but I don't think it's needed here.

I've heard of Mystitool but I don't know what it does. I don't recall ever hearing of the others. None of those are so well entrenched that they can't be competed with instantly. The only reason that I singled Xcite out is because they react to other people's Xcite, and other stores' products, and the chances are that, if you're going to have sex with someone who has sex attachments, they are most likely to have Xcite ones.

Many posts in this thread have been discouraging about succeeding in an SL business, and I'm trying to be encouraging because I *know* that good RL money can be made by anyone who has the will to do it - plus a reasonable brain. Imo, the biggest stumbling blocks for those who have a reasonable brain, as most people do, is a lack of will to succeed, or being too cautious. That's my honest opinion.

You said "_anyone_ whose interest is sufficient to do it", which implies to me at least that you mean that sufficient interest is enough. And, well, having sufficient interest doesn't necessarily extend to being a risktaking person.



No.. you can't assume that! I mean, ok, take an example. Suppose that there were only 10 people in SL. If 9 of those people had successful businesses, and then the tenth decides to start up a business, then no matter what she does and how hard she works she won't make any money because as soon as she stops being a consumer, there is no money coming in! Their business fails through no fault of their own. Now of course SL has far more than 10 people - but it does not have infinite people, and it also does not have any one person who can support everyone else on the grid in running a business. So that factor will always remain, it's just harder to see.



I was discussing artistic talent. I was discussing talent of all forms. In fact even what you are referring to as "having sufficient interest" could be a form of talent.



Well ok, but now you are saying that somehow, anyone who "has sufficient interest" also could not possibly be misguided - and that seems very unlikely to me.



How can you possibly know how well entrenched or otherwise they are if you have never heard of them?



I'm not trying to be discouraging, I'm trying to be realistic. Don't get me wrong here, I have no problem encouraging people. The problem with all the encouraging attitudes I've seen here is that they tend to backfire - if you tell someone that "anyone with a reasonable brain should be able to succeed in business" and they believe it, and then their business fails, they'll feel that they must be stupid. And that won't make them want to stay around in a virtual world that makes them feel stupid. The business encouragement I give people now is, "if you want to have a try at running a business, do it, and see how it goes."

And, also, it's actually logically impossible for "anyone" to be able to do something unless "everyone" can.

I'd already said other things, and that is a reasonable cover-all statement, which is better than repeating everything every time it's mentioned. It's also a true statement, whether you agree or not.

It's pointless continuing with this 2-way this discussion, and disecting every part of every post. You prefer to think that people cannot simply start a business and succeed with it, and I know from personal experience that they can. You prefer to think of the economy, and I prefer to think of creating a money-making business. I don't know why you choose to be so discouraging though.

The facts are very simple. If you make products that some people like, and if you get people to where the products are for sale, people will buy them. It's true in RL and it's true in SL. Screw the economy, and stick to those simple facts. I'll repeat them because they are so true:- make good products, get people to see them, and people will buy.

That's exactly the reason why I know they are not well entrenched - *because* I've never heard of them. I've been in SL for more than a year. If something is so well entrenched that it can't be easily competed with, I would know about the item. Simple as that. It can't be well-entrenched amongst the population if the population hasn't heard of it.

I'm a business owner but I'm also a consumer; I buy from other businesses! You seem to be putting people into two mutually-exclusive sets, business owners and consumers. In reality, many people belong to both and I would bet that ALL business owners are also consumers.

Isobel

Well I'm a consumer and a business owner too. I don't just run my business, I buy items for leisure time but beyond that I also buy items for my business. For example I'll buy buildings, rental systems, vendors.

I could I guess learn how to make all of those myself and if everyone knew how to do everything then business would be pretty dead, but I don't see that scenario arising.

Well I am a business owner as well, but spent about 20k last 2 months only on business needs: animations, textures, scripts, sculpted stuff and so on. When needing full-perm stuff to build, you pay lots So heck I have been quite a consumer as well!

As for "in it for the money", well then i'd prett soon leave I guess. Love creating stuff, but do not sell much yet. Now I am sure eventually my stuff will sell, but I am not very disappointed if it doesn't. And generating an actual income, it will never I guess, and I dont care.

The creative process is enough a challenge and my main reason for being in SL. If I were in it for the money, I would have taken up scripting as I program in real life as well. But why choosing a hobby similar to my work? Hell I am here for my amusement, and thats enough for me

Greetings Marcel

That argument has so many flaws in it, I'm not sure where to start First, people have vastly differing ideas of what constitutes "success"; there isn't a single standard that all aspire to. You are the only person who can ever know if you're "successful" because you're the only one who decides what that term means for you.

Therefore it is highly unlikely that, whatever the external factors, any but a very few would even *want* to become ballerinas or astronauts. There will always be those who are prepared to provide what others want, so the economy will always self-balance, *left to itself*!!!

Whatever result anyone achieves at anything is entirely in their own hands, or rather in their own thoughts and beliefs. In any economy or any set of external factors, there are always some who thrive, and they do so not because they're "lucky" or have more "creative talent" or the "best" products. When the external factors are the same for all, but some achieve success (on their terms) and others don't, the difference *must* be in the internal factors, i.e. in their own hands. What you do is of course important, but not as important as what you believe is possible.

As you said yourself, if "anyone" can do something, logically "everyone" can.

Isobel

I alays wanted to be a ballerina, but could never get my tail into those dern ballerina sneaker-things.

Of these 5 items, I only own one (MystiTool) and have heard of two others. So far, that is 4 "category killer" products that have not convinced me that I need to own them - thus an opportunity for someone else to make an item that has even more features and functionality which will get me in the door spending money.

Isobel also hit on the same post I started to write last night and deleted: the definition of success varies from person to person. How successful you are depends on where you set the bar to define success. 3 years ago I rezzed my first prim. April of 2005 I sold my first "creation"; a 3 prim park bench for $25L. That single moment of "OMFG! Somebody liked something I made enough to actually buy it!" was thrilling. I still get that same thrill every time the little cash register rings with a sale. Equaling your stipend is a success level, covering tier is a success level, using profits to expand is a success level, buying a sim is a success level. The ultimate success level is making your living off SL, but less than 200 people are achieving that mark - does that make the rest of us failures?

It is better to have a dream, try and fail, than to always wonder what if, or to not dream at all. Yumi is right in a Cold, Clinical, Black and White way. However, our capitalist/entrepunerial would not exist if people didn't have nothing more than a dream or an idea and run with it, and I'm sure many were told they couldn't succeed. Sl, being a place where we can do or be whatever we want, it is even more so. With the exception of perhaps the Virtual Real Estate market, the financial risks are far less damaging if you go slowly and use a little common sense.

Wow, so many points Ok, first of all.. why do I choose to be discouraging? I don't want to discourage anyone. What I want to do is to manage expectations. We know that Second Life has a major problem with user retention. Now of course, we should encourage people to try and start businesses if they'd like to. But saying things like "anyone should be able to start a business in SL and make some money" is dangerous, because realistically not everyone is going to succeed, and such a statement will seriously amplify the negative feelings of those who don't. I know that the standard capitalist response is that they can't hold back to avoid hurting people's feelings, but they aren't dealing with a virtual world where people can just disappear if they're not enjoying themselves.

It's been documented that motivation can behave like a zig-zag - we start off hugely energetic and motivated as children, then eventually something goes wrong and it dips way down, then it recovers as things go right or we're deliberately motivated, then dips down again.. all the while homing in on a centre point, which is the point where we'll be well-adjusted for living in the real world. We might no longer have our childhood dreams, but at least we don't throw tantrums and sulk for 3 weeks when another girl looks prettier than us at a party. The problem is that people are experiencing this zig-zag in SL - and conversations I've had with long-standing residents have pretty much confirmed this - but a lot of users are only experiencing the first downward zag, when the first thing goes wrong, and then quitting and falling off the chart. This is not because they are lazy or unmotivated but because they were only dipping their toes into SL, hadn't really committed to anything yet, and when it seems not to be fun, they stop. And while such people might not succeed in business, having them leave completely is bad for everyone.

Isobel/Ciaran: I know that business owners buy from other businesses. But typically, they don't put in real money in order to do so. If no real money is coming in none can go out, and if no real money is going out, no-one can cover their tier.

Phil: The products can still be well-entrenched in communities that you aren't involved in. If you aren't involved in Gorean type sims, you probably indeed wouldn't have heard of the Amethyst Collar; and if you aren't involved in Star Wars roleplay, likewise with Force Prophecies. I'm surprised you hadn't heard of Prim Docker and TextureAlign, since those are popular with builders.

Isobel: The problem is that the external factors never actually are the same for everyone. I've spoken to creators who say they were successful because they early on met someone who was able to help and encourage them, and that's an external factor which not everyone can benefit from. Any successful business changes the external factors for all the future ones. Also, I should add that my point was that success in business can't be put entirely down to _consciously controllable_ internal factors. Making people think they failed because of internal factors that aren't consciously controllable really serves only to make them feel bad.

Brenda: You're right that it's great to have a dream and try it, and we should encourage that! But what we shouldn't encourage is people thinking that if they _don't_ get their dream, then they are a failure, and that this is for reasons which are permanent, pervasive and personal.

If 100% of the population decided to go into business to make a profit, then of course it couldn't happen, as Yumi pointed out. But SL is like RL - only a small minority of the population choose to start a business, and the door is open for anyone - not 100% everyone - anyone.

The beauty of SL is that it's so much easier and cheaper to start a business than it in RL. In RL, significant money and/or risks often need to be taken, but in SL the financial investment in a business is tiny, as are the risks. How much does a 1024 cost in RL money, and how much is the tier for it in RL money - tiny amounts. But a 1024 can hold a small but significant store and its products. My store covers an 8k piece of land and has 2 floors, but it started on a 1 floor 1024 piece - and it grew from there, bit by bit.

Yumi:
To be honest, I think you are putting too much into what happens to a person if they start a business that fails. You may not intend to discourage, but you've been adding to other posts in this thread that have a negative feel about them. One such post quoted from a book, to say that a stack of things are necessary at the start - none of which is true - very usefull, but not necessary.

Nobody has been saying that a person is a failure if they start a business that fails. All that's been said is that anyone can start a business and succeed IF they have the will to do it (there - that's another cover-all expression for you to disect ). Many people will start businesses that don't succeed straight away. They'll think, "I can't be arsed with this", give it up, and carry on enjoying SL's other aspects as they did before. I don't know where you get the idea from that they all leave SL, believing themselves to be miserable failures. Yes, people leave SL, but for various reasons - e.g. the perfectly natural getting bored of it. I imagine that's the biggest reason.

But that's the same sentiment. If someone has been told that anyone can start a business and succeed if they have the will to do it, and their own business fails, they'll reason that they must not have had the will to do it. And they, themselves, might well have felt that they really wanted to succeed. So the conclusion they'll draw is that even their highest will is not enough. And if true, that would be a pervasive character flaw.



They don't "leave SL believing themselves to be miserable failures". They leave SL because its association with the failure creates negative emotions.

I have to think that most SL users are smart enough not to take it that literally, and won't be traumatized for life if they don't succeed. Most of us know "Anyone can, but not everyone will" If you are so maladjusted that your self esteem will be irreparably damaged
by what happens here, then you better stay in Mom's basement, for you won't survive the Real World.

What Brenda said

I'll add to what Brenda said...

Most people are reasonably sensible. If a business fails, and if they remember someone saying that it can succeed if they have the will to do it, they will know where their will came up short - perhaps it was not wanting to put so much time/effort into it, or perhaps it was not wanting to risk investing money in it, or many other reasons, but they will know. Overall, of course they really did want it to succeed - they'll know that - but they'll also know where they stopped short. I really don't think it will affect anybody in a bad way.

The irony is there is a whole generation of young people in that category. They have been coddled and insulated, never knowing failure and how to rebound from it. And it will come back to bite them eventually. Even in their games, they are more interested in cheat codes and other ways to beat the system, then in working to success. *OT rant over*

/me hugs the hamster.

Yes, I agree. I appreciate everyone that has the talent, uses it, and makes my play that much better.

I spent a lot of time playing around with building, and creating in the beginning. Made some interesting things, but in the long run it just set me up to be able to adjust my hair. And get really frustrated trying to adjust prim items. Probably be easier if I just built those things myself, but . . . oops went on a tangent into a land of incredible frustration suffered recently, sorry.

I have never made tier. I have never made enough to buy a five cent . . . can't think of anything that costs five cents. Have not made enough to buy a quarter ball of gum (I'm talking about revenue, not profit). It would be very frustrating if I was actually in this for more than fun. Never been able to incorporate any RL skills into SL, though things learned through SL have been brought back to RL. I gave it a reasonably long trial run (roughly 9 or ten months). Time to sell all my land and just go to 100% play.

Oh, and I did make some money when I would sell land and move somewhere else. But I do not really want to buy and sell land.

You do have a great place, and I almost bought the land for sale right next to your complex just because of your great looking place. Too expensive, though, so I moved on. I still go back to visit your Neko Shrine though :)


Even inspired me to put up my own Japanese themed build. :)

Oh wow, thank you. So glad you like. And please do come visit any time. I'm always adding little things. And your place looks great! Aren't those straylight trees great?

HUGS

Thank-you purrs

I've lost alot of my straylight items, though, from thinking I might sell the land for a higher price by leaving them on the land. oh well.

Um... no. It's nothing to do with "their self esteem will be irreparably damaged". What I'm saying is that if they _do_ feel that they've failed, and it was their own fault, then most of them will indeed deal with those emotions and not be badly hurt... but will they then turn around and start spending money in SL as a consumer? Or are they more likely to just do something else entirely?

Consumers are just as necessary for business in SL as entrepreneurs are - but all the praise seems to go to businesses. That works fine in the real world, where the consumers probably will not be upset by this, and certainly won't kill themselves, and thus will go on consuming; but in SL, where you have to actually tempt people to make the effort to click on that icon each day, come into the world and be a consumer, that isn't likely to work so well anymore.

That's true.. but Second Life is a consumer product, and has to sell to these people.

I mean.. many people in Second Life do not like the idea of playing World Of Warcraft because they don't like "grinding" and levelling up. Now, do you think that you should carry on playing it anyway, because being able to concentrate on menial activities that you may not enjoy is a valuable skill for life?

Considering that it is only a relatively few people who will start an SL business with the full intent of making it an RL livelihood, does it matter if some of them leave or not after the business doesn't succeed? Most people who come into SL leave, and they don't leave because of failing businesses - very few people start businesses and they don't all fail. I've only been here a year, and it's unusual for me to see someone who is older than I am, but when I started, everyone was older than me. People leave for all sorts of reasons, and I don't think it matters if a few leave because they feel negatively about an unsuccessful business attempt.

Incidentally, I don't accept that anyone would leave for that reason, unless business was the sole purpose for registering.

[added]
You seem to keep shifting your view, Yumi. Earlier you were majoring on people getting to feel bad about themselves because someone said that they could have succeeded, but they didn't. (my paraphrase). Now it's not that - it's keeping people in SL that's you seem to majoring on.