Could the Lindens block SL from stabilising as a goldrush economy?

The person playing the music is the real him, not the virtual him.

Yumi doesn't believe it counts because he brings a skillset from RL into SL. She feels that for LL's advertising to not be a sham, there should be a way for any talentless hack to make it big in SL. Pre recorded sound loops don't cut it either. Perhaps the software should compose original music for every individual. And then there has to be a virtual audience made up of real people (not bots or anything) who love this music, and the virtual musicians stage presence, so that the person can have a real rock star experience.

All that should come with the prim guitar, or the disillusioned person deserves a refund.

But I have done that. Played music in front of an audience using an instrument in SL that wasn't canned sound loops. And I have no music skill in RL. Granted I was at the forum hangout, on the pier, and we were just goofing around, but still. Well, that was one occasion. The other occasion was up near the fire pit. Mostly the same people around then. It isn't that hard to set up. Put up some items that play a certain tune. Activiated if touched. Set out a bunch of them. Randomly strike them. Create your own songs inside SL that is not RL heard over stream or canned loop. (SL ate my music instruments, though, and I bought them, not built; can't really build)

Wish I had real skillset to bring into SL. I'd try it out. Seeing if anyone would listen. Too complicated, boring, time consuming to do it in real life, so it would have been interesting to do in SL if I had the smallest amount of ability.

edited to add: Oh! I just remembered! I spent many a night in an elf sim playing those type of music instruments with a large group of people. The kind where you make the music by striking the items. Long long ago. I do not even remember where that was now

Creators are the closest thing to a "virtual rockstar" you get in SL, they get treated like stars by enough people to count, anyway. Me I write code, that's how I "play a rockstar" in SL. Anyway, the person writing the code is the real me, and I'm really writing code.

You seem to be confusing SL with "MMO" games where you pretend to build stuff, and pretend to create clothes, and pretend to do all the stuff that you do for real in SL. It's a *virtual* world, yes, but that's not the same as a pretend world.

Those were created by Robbie Dingo, did you know? The same guy who made the "Watch the World" video. Now *there* is an SL rockstar.

Not quite. I feel that content creators should not have a perverse incentive to make SL appear as other than it is. That includes by omission.

I think you need to dig up some concrete numbers to back up your general assertions. Because I'm not buying it.

I'm not confusing them at all. I know very well what SL is. I'm asking whether it's a good idea or not. The problem is, in SL it seems that all the value is in real personality, the real skills - but that is at odds with the dependance on making money from _virtual_ content. It's silly to have an economy that depends on virtual content, while at once devaluing virtual content in favor of the real. I mean, if it's your personality rather than your avatar that counts then.. well, that might seem great socially, but for SL it's a disaster. It means SL's whole avatar system, which is a key driver of the economy, isn't adding any value - because you could show your personality just as much on a text-based talker.



It's not just that he brings a skillset from RL into SL. It's that the _activity_ is taking place IRL. If someone was, say, giving a concert by playing a HyperFlute (yes, I love Robbie's things too ) then it'd be more virtual.



Well, there's no way to recover concrete numbers to do with residents who have probably left. And if you can get LL to release details tabulating the number of L$ spent each month against avatar time in world, I'd be delighted, but they never have. The point is, if it's actually true that very little misdirection was taking place - then why NOT introduce a refund system? If creators are confident that very few of their sales are coming that way, why would they be afraid?

The activity is taking place in SL. They talk, play, interact with people in SL as they play. They move their avatars around, dance, pose, whatever. Many sl musicians note that one of the reasons they play in SL is the direct interaction with the audience that they can't get with RL playing (the talking, joking, etc.; while granted they could be playing naked, or in their PJ's in real life).

The activity is occurring in SL.

The playing of the music instruments may or may not be in SL or RL. Many of them have their voice be their musical instrument. Should they sing in text or something so that it "remains in virtual" setting, or are they allowed to use their voice?

So in the absence of concrete information, you've decided that there must be a problem?



Again, let's have some evidence. How many are afraid? How do you know they're afraid? How many have even considered the question?

It's not a case of them "not being allowed" to. I have nothing _against_ people who perform live music in SL. But they don't cause SL to fulfill its own promise of people being able to realise their dreams.



I've decided it based on experience in world and numerous comments I've had from others. I've decided it based on the behaviour I see amongst new users and the expectations they have.



Just look at the responses on this thread! Creators should be responsible for the experiences their creations are used on? Horrors! That'll upset the freedom of SL! Isn't Yumi being unreasonable!

It doesn't matter whether it's a good idea or not, it is what it is. In the market for *virtual worlds*, it's picked a niche, and that niche happens to involve a high level of correspondence with the physical world at the economic level.
The opposite of "virtual" isn't "real". The opposite of "virtual" is "physical". The fact that it's *possible* to use "real skills" in a "virtual world" is nothing but proof of that. And even in your World of Warcrack MMOs, people have different levels of skill, and that real skill whatever it is means that some people will advance mor ethan others.

So it's silly to talk about "real skills" not mattering on *any* virtual world.

No, it ALL counts. Your avatar is an aspect of your personality. How your avatar looks is an aspet of your skill in expressing your personality through your avatar.

And even on text-based virtual worlds that's true. Your text-based virtual world can have scripts, and scripted objects, and descriptions, and you'd apparently think that the descriptions wouldn't matter, wouldn't you, so it wouldn't matter what I "looked" like, since you don't *have* to look at me. And yet people do pay attention to things like:

Argent says, "Look at me."
> look argent

Imagine an otter that had decided to hunt on land, or a wolf that's becoming adapted for an aquatic life. Add short thick sealfur, countershaded in a complex pattern of irregular patches. On the forehead, shoulders, and haunches are patches where the black skin shows through thin fuzz. The whole assemblage is vaguely reminiscent of a well-groomed and somewhat streamlined hyena, and it's about the size of one. Multiply by eight, an unruly active (oddly coordinated) mob, working together to sculpt the mind of Argent between them. Nearest to you is Ran, a large animal, the largest of the pack. His fur is shot through with grey.

>

People are more complex than you imagine in your philosophy.

There's no photoshop in SL so your clothing is designed outside SL rather than inside. So is designing clothing not a skill in SL?
Probably because they can't imagine Linden Labs managing to implement it so it couldn't be easily and routinely abused. Hell, I wouldn't trust Microsoft or Apple with a "kill switch" like that (and no, I don't use Vista, thank you for asking).

It "doesn't matter"? To whom? Why does this mean it's wrong to discuss and challenge it?



They're not "my" MMOs, I don't actually enjoy them very much, I just see them as a comparison point, and they do have _some_ advantages. And it's not that real skills "don't matter" in other worlds. It's that SL pushes the real skills harder than any MMO does, while paradoxically having a model which depends far more on _virtual_ content having value. A guitar on SL costs much more in real value terms than a musical instrument on SWG; yet, in the SWG world, having that instrument matters much more than having the guitar on SL.



And many people with wonderful personalities aren't good at visual art.



Right. But the text-based virtual world isn't selling that description for money, and it doesn't have an economy that depends on most people not writing their own descriptions (remember the rule that for every person cashing out of L$, multiple others must be putting cash in)



Well, if that's the reason then that's fine, I accept that - but it's totally opposite the reasons people have been posting.

To the Internet, to Linden Labs, to the people who like SL the way it is. To pretty much anyone. If you want something like SL that's based around fake skills instead of real skills, go start one.

Actually, you don't have to, there's plenty of them. One of them's called Entropia or Extropia or something like that.

The opposite of "virtual" isn't "real". The skills that create virtual content are real skills.

Wow, so L$0 (there's a number of free guitars) is worth more than any amount of Star Wars Galaxy Quatloos. Who'da thunk it.
I'm not, and yet I've got quite a satisfactory relationship with my avatar.
That's because more people have skills at writing (though I flatter myself that I'm somewhat above average) than drawing, let alone crafting in 3d, that's why it's worth money to people like me to be able to benefit from that work when building up ones avatar in SL. But that doesn't mean that I'm not applying my own skills to my avatar.
An economy always depends on people specializing. That's the whole Civilization schtick. I'm not an artist, I'm a coder. I earn L$ writing code, and spend L$ on what's basically dynamic virtual sculpture.
Um, in general people seem to be ignoring that part of your argument. Because the whole idea of adding MORE uncertainty to the economy in SL is, well, just plain crazy.

Most of the people who like SL the way it is are the people who have the real skills. They ignore their audience and customers at their own peril.



You just found an edge case to dodge the actual point I was making. Paid-for content in SL is costed at a higher value than in MMO games, yet the society values it less. That's contradictory.



Right. But SL for many, is about escapism. Having to keep a job that you have had for years and are bored with because you have to stay with the thing you're specialised in is something that people tend to want to get away from, not to pass into a virtual world.

I'm not just a creator, I'm also a customer, and I for one appreciate the fact that I'm not stick with the choice of a white human, a black human, a vulcan, a dwarf, and elf, and a drow. It's the way the SL works that makes this possible.

In a free market content is valued at exactly what it sells for. If people are willing to pay L$1000 for realistic Stratocasters that means they value having a realistic guitar in SL more than they value having a made up Oompian Tuba in SWG.

You're assuming that they don't have any hobbies or skills they're not applying in their jobs.

But even if that's so...

Then they will apply their real world skills to SL by being rich bastards in SL, and they can lord it over the n00bs on their camping pads. They can buy stuff they can't afford in RL, thanks to the almost 300:1 exchange rate and LOW LOW prices in SL. They can be virtual landlords, and yes... it's only stuff you bought, but owning a sim is cheaper than a boatload of RL hobbies (including owning a boat... just about ANY boat...) and get you beaucoup kudos in SL.

I mean, in SL, L$3000 is a LOT of money for a car. IN RL, that's barely a lot of money for a motorbike... and it's a little over $10.00 US. So for 10 bucks you can have a virtual classic Mustang that you're never going to be able to afford in RL. That's their fantasy. And don't go on about them not driving it on SL roads... most of the people I know who have classic cars don't drive them on RL roads, except on special occasions.

If you want to be a rich bastard in SL, you can do it on the cheap. That's perfectly legitimate escapism.

Except that they are not necessarily completely aware of the situation at the time they spend that money. Many may believe that, _because_ the guitar is expensive, it must be highly valued. Many MMOs work that way, and although SL isn't like them, not every new user necessarily knows that (in spite of helpers' best efforts to tell them)



Sadly, in today's employment market, if they do they're not specialised enough in their job.



Buying a sim and trying to become a landlord blindly is a great way of losing a lot of money when you find it's a competitive market. At the very least you need to be able to theme the sim if you're going to offer rentals there.



I'm sure there are some people who do think that way, but I don't think it's very common. I think it's more common to know that, if it was cheap, you're not rich.

Oh my...

the headache.

Sorry, but I don't remotely trust your experiences. You seem rather hell bent on finding fault with the whole system. I don't think you're objective. Find objective evidence, and then you might start to convince people.



Most of the responses here have been challenging your assumptions and your conclusions. Hardly anyone, if anyone at all, has rallied against a fair returns system.

That's a silly level of cynicism.
I didn't say anything about becoming a REAL landlord. I'm talking about just buying a sim for the hell of it and PLAY-ACTING being a landlord. That's, what, $300 a month. Because it's cheap compared to a hell of a lot of hobbies, it's not hard to spend that much on dining out, over a month, without going much beyond family restaurants.

But that's stinking rich in SL terms.

This is at the root of your problem Yumi, you are placing some mirage of "society's values" above the value the end consumer gives an item. Argent is completely right when he says that an item is worth what ever the market will bear as it's price.


But as to your earlier assertion that most people in SL who like it are creators, well you are patently wrong. Most people I know in SL are not building things for money. Most of them shop and dance, laugh and socialize. Sure they may dabble with the building tools, feel some pride when they make a couch or a picture, but they are not here to build and make money.

Actually I have railed against her comments along this line: "Creators should be responsible for the experiences their creations are used on?"


She is not talking about the item being defective or even not what the person wants. She wants you to be able to return your handcuffs if you can't find someone to play bondage with you.

This is extremely surprising that Yumi, being from 2005, makes such an assertion.

Yumi were you offline for a number of years? 2004-2005 were the prime years that we had real content creating artists come into SL with the express intent on making $. The trend of course has continued throughout 2006 and onward, but greatly reduced as the number of consumers have far out stripped the number of content creators by an easy factor of 10.

I do not know what experiences Yumi has had, but it is MY experience that more users from 2007 onward know nothing about manipulating or linking prims than from any previous year and the number is growing.

Right now a new resident can come to SL and NEVER EVER learn how to make a single object besides a prim to drop textures on to because EVERYTHING can be purchased or contracted. You dream it, and someone has already made it or will gladly take $ to make it for you.

Honestly, I do not see why the rest of you even entertain her.

Edit to add - i know 2 people from 2006 who still to this day have never rezzed a plywood prim or even edited their preferences. And they are daily players. When they rez items, its to unpack clothing and accessories. When i asked one guy why he had never rezzed a prim and he asked in return "why should i?".

Oh I'm sure it is SL's fault they never wanted to rez a prim, I guaran-fickin-tee that

That doesn't apply when the market is constantly churning, and thus constantly mostly naive and has no idea how to value anything correctly. It especially doesn't apply when people who are dissatisfied simply quit, so their knowledge and experience are no longer shared with the market. The ability to utterly block resale (no trans) and the zero cost of stock storage all reduce elasticity too.



I didn't say they have to run businesses, I just said they have to have the skills to create. Afaik, even since 2005 the retention rate and the rate of users commonly using creation options have varied practically in parallel. And so well they might, as the creation tools remain SL's most distinguishing unique feature.