Do L$ have value or NOT??????

Wonder what would happen if we choose to quit trading 'fictional" money for services and goods within SL?

Really? I can think of several other reasons why they would ban gambling, which have nothing to do with attempting to fulfil any legal requirements.

they have value every time you convert them to $US. other than that, i'd say no. especially not $L bonds being bought by the same people selling them.

"Number 3 is not correct. LL isn't banning gambling in SL specifically to comply with any law, but for their own business reasons."



The ban applies to all games of chance, wagering, or sports betting, where Linden dollars
or their equivalents are collected and paid out.

THE BAN APPLIES TO ALL GAMES OF CHANCE, WAGERING.....

Itself, that brought me to consider land purchase speculation, a form of wager, and i started a thread about the specific definition consequences.

What is important is the definition of wager/ gambling, that SL determines.It does result in a consequence, intended to limit continuation of the "wager" or "gamble" by any individual.

The individual must include those who run SL, unless they are excluded specifically in the TOS., or rules pertaining.

It is the definition i am not happy with, since it is a blanket cover, in that it does determine, "or in any way risks Linden dollars
based on whether an event may or may not occur"

an event?

may or may not occur?

ie its anything you do, that is determined, wether it happens or not...

so.. one shouldnt land speculate.. or make a "wager", and even if you do or do not.. (the determination is not specific), one can be banned anyway.

My suggestion if anyone would do it or hear is;
1.) Don't do illegal or unethical business.
2.) If you're in business in SL accept real cash only, quit using fictional dollars.

Yes..your Linden balance originated from your (or someone else's) credit card, the funds available through your credit card have monetary value. If you transfer funds from your Linden balance to your RL bank account your enhanced bank account has monetary value..and if you doupt that just try contacting your Tax Office and watch what happens (but that's a whole different thread..).

Is real currency backed by something of value? Well, not always, the U.S. dollar is no longer backed by gold.

Is real currency have to be a physical thing? Well, not always, how bout electronic funds?

Is real currency need to be worth something? Well, I guess in the smallest of terms yes. There are plenty of world currencies that are worth practically nothing. Some may actually be completely worthless.

Is real currency backed by a government? Well, not always, banks explicitly print "Non-Negotiable" on there checks to keep them from being traded as currency. It actually takes more effort to keep something from be currency than it des to creat currency.

I'd say anything can be currency if you can get something for it. Influecy can be currency. Hell, I can draw you a hiro buck and that would be currency if I said it was and someone was willing to give something for it.

Linden Labs receives a fee for every purchase and sale of $Lindens. And although Linden Labs can say their $Lindens are valueless, their profits are as real as the taxes paid on the income.

I would like to see the issue in court. Not to be a pain about it but if Linden Labs requires real money to purchases of their currency, wouldn't anyone expect to receive value for their purchase?

Real Cash=Government legal recognized tender based on your country.
If you're a talented object maker, clothing or texture maker why not sell subscriptions?

I buy worthless stuff all the time. I think I'm not the frst one to point out that you do not purchase Lindens from LL. They do provide an entity to facilitate the trade of US dollars for Lindens between users but they do not sell them.

That is where the rub comes in. They are, IMHO, acting much in the same way as credit card compaies acts. They are the facilitator of transaction between entities and derive a transaction fee for their troubles. When you by something in a store with a credit card, the credit card is not buying something from the store and reselling it to you or vise versa or the other way round. It only brockers the deal.

This is why LL attempted to say their Lindens are not currency. The anti online gambling laws, and a whole host of other laws, actually place restrictions on the brockering of financial transaction between individuals and the online gambling sites not on the actual exisence of off-shore gambling sites themselves. They can't, not in their jurisdiction. If they could say that Lindns are not currency then they are not violatig the law. Problem is it is currency and the Government knows that and now LL finds themselves having to pick a more prudent course for the survival of the company.

well actually, it is. but only partially.

I'll accept that, what he said.

My response was to the OP question which is do "L$ have value or NOT?????".

The issue I discussed wasn't about Linden Labs selling Linden dollars. Linden Labs created the $Linden and an economy to facilitate the use of a $Linden.

I wasn't specific in my statement that Linden Labs receives a fee for every purchase and sale of $Lindens. They receive a fee only for transactions placed through the Second Life transaction feature.

If you buy it, then by definition it isn't worthless. You're really using the term "worthless" metaphorically rather than literally, to describe something either of no utility (which doesn't mean no value), or whose appeal is so small that most people wouldn't put any value on it, but some would.


While I'm sure that some of the laws, particularly around money laundering, are specific to currency, I'm pretty sure that some aren't. So I don't think it matters whether Lindens are a currency for the recent internet gambling law to apply.

Oil, corn, and many other commodities are quoted on the markets, and can be bought and sold back again. That does not make them currencies. I believe that the L$ IS a currency, but not for the argument put forward above.

Rock

Out of curiosity... if someone buys something that doesn't really exist except as a bunch of transient 1's and 0's in some server somewhere, then does it really have value? I understand your argument, but I'm just saying that since we KNOW that this thing doesn't really exist, we therefore "pay" for it with play money that ALSO doesn't really exist.

Maybe that's why the US economy is so messed up. Aren't we like trillions of dollars in debt to ourselves??

On one hand LL states very clearly in their TOS that $L have no USD value.
On the other hand LL facilitates the trading of $L for USD on an exchange called the LindeX

Because of this "on the other hand business" it is quite possible the whole concept of LL issuing $L is completely illegal itself. Under US Federal Securities laws, it could be construed as issuing an unregistered security. Because the $L is traded for USD on the LindeX, are they in fact issuing securities for USD? If so, that IS DEFINITELY illegal under federal securities law - virtual or not. Technically securities, for all intents and purposes, are virtual anyway because you just don't see actual stock certificates anymore. $L is no different because if you buy $L basically you are hoping someone will pay more for it, or that you can exchange it for something with value, so it appears they are acting like a company issuing stock, i.e. selling virtual securities. ALL BECAUSE THEY OWN THE LINDEX.

This opens up another can of worms.

Because of US Federal Securities laws, we may see some "qui tam" litigation as the result. This would certainly bring on a US DOJ investigation and possibly tie up any resources LL might have to defend itself.

Qui tam lawsuits are quite unique. They are basically filed by individuals on behalf of the government. They are also sometimes called "whistleblower" lawsuits.

This type of lawsuit is particularly attractive in our litigious and greedy times because the government is required to do all the work basically and the person filing the suit is entitled to 15-30 percent of the total recovery. Additionally they receive protection from retaliation.

In 2005 alone, a record $3.1 billion was reclaimed from corrupt businesses from qui tam actions. My math sucks, but isn't 15% of 3.1 billion something like 450 million. That's quite an incentive.


"In qui tam provisions the government gives private citizens the right and the financial incentive to retain a private lawyer to file a lawsuit to act in the place of law enforcement."


Lawyers will take these on in a heartbeat without even a consultation fee. It would not surprise me to learn that one has already been filed, but I seriously doubt anyone on this forum would bother since the posts aren't read or taken seriously to begin with.

It's just money, we can always print some more.



Really though...we should get this thread together with the other similar thread, and have them go bowling.

I could set up an exchange to trade cow pies for USD; that doesn't make them valuable.

Actually it would. It depends on what's growing out of the cow patties.

LL has already made themselves liable for the monetary value that SL residents have invested in the $L in circulation and the user created content in Second Life.

They did that when they created the LindeX.
On one hand LL states very clearly in their TOS that $L has no USD value.
On the other hand, LL facilitates the trading of $L for USD on the Lindex.

Yes it does.

Internet gambling is not illegal. What is illegal is funding it with USD. There is no federal law that outlaws internet gambling. That's why only online processors have been taken down by the UIGEA.

What matters even more than that is it's illegal to make your own currency. So if $L is a currency, there could be bigger problems than just a ban on gaming in SL.

On one hand LL states very clearly in their TOS that $L has no USD value.
On the other hand, LL facilitates the trading of $L for USD on an exchange they own, called the LindeX.

It is quite possible the whole concept of LL issuing $L is completely illegal itself. Under US Federal Securities laws, it could be construed as issuing an unregistered security. Because the $L is traded for USD on the LindeX, are they in fact issuing securities for USD? If so, that IS DEFINITELY illegal under federal securities law - virtual or not. Technically securities, for all intents and purposes, are virtual anyway because you just don't see actual stock certificates anymore. $L is no different because if you buy $L basically you are hoping someone will pay more for it, or that you can exchange it for something with value, so it appears they are acting like a company issuing stock, i.e. selling virtual securities. ALL BECAUSE THEY OWN THE LINDEX.

If they ditched the LindeX, then they would not be in conflict with their TOS and they wouldn't be facing liabilities for the $L being traded for USD.

If they don't, then there are lots more serious problems than a ban on gaming. LL could go bankrupt trying to defend itself legally and the grid would close.

Because of US Federal Securities laws, we could see some "qui tam" litigation as the result. This would certainly bring on a US DOJ investigation and possibly tie up any resources LL might have to defend itself.

Qui tam lawsuits are quite unique. They are basically filed by individuals on behalf of the government. They are also sometimes called "whistleblower" lawsuits.

This type of lawsuit is particularly attractive in our litigious and greedy times because the government is required to do all the work basically and the person filing the suit is entitled to 15-30 percent of the total recovery. Additionally they receive protection from retaliation.

In 2005 alone, a record $3.1 billion was reclaimed from corrupt businesses from qui tam actions. My math sucks, but isn't 15% of 3.1 billion something like 450 million. That's quite an incentive.


"In qui tam provisions the government gives private citizens the right and the financial incentive to retain a private lawyer to file a lawsuit to act in the place of law enforcement."


Lawyers will take these on in a heartbeat without even a consultation fee. It would not surprise me to learn that one has already been filed.

Read about the securities laws here:
http://www.sec.gov

Read about qui tam provisions here:
http://www.whistleblowerfirm.com/faq.html#1