Yes, 1KL=$4.00
Next question.
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Do L$ have value or NOT?????? |
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Manstan Beaumont
Registered User
Join date: 30 May 2007
Posts: 247
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08-10-2007 05:22
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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08-10-2007 06:26
ALL Currency has no value.... They are only IOU's from banks promissing to "pay the barer", therefor in reality is LL any different. They have restricted the ability to trade in Lindens .... which is very bank like, you cant make them only LL can again very bank like, they have no value in themselves. Plus you need to remember that the MAJORITY of SL's appeal is the ability to play a game and make some RL money out of your skill.... what pull to a game that is SO BLOODY EXPENSIVE would there be. We have seen a load of islands up for sale recently as people can no longer afford to run them since the gambling ban. Theres just so many things....... but i would say YES Lindens have a value... but only as long as LL allows them to... imagine if tommorow LL decided they would no longer trade Lindens for cash or allow the trade. I agree Marty my point is should LL start accepting that they have created this issue and accept that the L$ has a real monetary value instead of keep hiding behind the TOS when something financial goes wrong and saying its just play money which base line is what they are doing when something goes wrong imho whilst saying its real money in respect of people cant use it to gamble as everyone outside LL says its illegal to gamble, well use your credit card to buy bets online if ur a US Citizen, i just wanted to raise this particular issue and get some views from others perhaps more knowledgeable than myself in this area  Peace _____________________
Independent Shopping for Second Life residents from established and new merchants.
http://slapt.me  slapt.me - In-World HQ http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastet/123/118/26 |
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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08-10-2007 06:30
Oh ffs!!!
The L$ has no freaking value!!! There is NO ONE BACKING IT!. If you hoard your L$ and LL shuts down SL tomorrow, you are out everything. They owe you not one red cent. L$ is TRADABLE so violates the gambling laws. Same as the casino chips, or even poker chips you buy at Wal-Mart. Try going into Wal-Mart with seven $100 face value chips and telling them you want $700. Though the gambling place you got them from (or the night with your friends at the poker table) will prolly honor them. The L$ only has value in so much as WE, the RESIDENTS give it. Aside from what a "collector" (for lack of a better term) give it, it has NO VALUE. *tosses the poor horse in a grave, gives it last rigths, buries it and burns all the sticks people were using to beat the poor thing* ~Jessy _____________________
When your friend does somethign stupid:
Dude, you are a true and good friend, and I love you like the brother that my mom claims she never had, but you are in fact acting like a flaming douche on white toast with a side order of dickknob salsa..maybe you should reconsider this course of action and we go find something else to do. |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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08-10-2007 07:18
great. all you ppl that are so adamant that L$ have no value, send them all to me. i will give you one cent USD for every L$10,000 you send me. deal? why not?
all you ginko ppl send me your paypal details and ill wire $.01 to you as well to cover the loss of you 'worthless' L$. see we can all come out of this smiling |
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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08-10-2007 07:19
great. all you ppl that are so adamant that L$ have no value, send them all to me. i will give you one cent USD for every L$10,000 you send me. deal? why not? all you ginko ppl send me your paypal details and ill wire $.01 to you as well to cover the loss of you 'worthless' L$. see we can all come out of this smiling You owe me for a keyboard as i spluttered coffee all over it whilst reading it as u didnt put a laughter warning on it _____________________
Independent Shopping for Second Life residents from established and new merchants.
http://slapt.me slapt.me - In-World HQ http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastet/123/118/26 |
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Warda Kawabata
Amityville Horror
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,300
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08-10-2007 07:21
great. all you ppl that are so adamant that L$ have no value, send them all to me. i will give you one cent USD for every L$10,000 you send me. deal? why not? all you ginko ppl send me your paypal details and ill wire $.01 to you as well to cover the loss of you 'worthless' L$. see we can all come out of this smiling You're misunderstanding, intentionally I think. Linden Lab assigns them no value. You cannot pay for any of your debts to LL with L$. In this regard, they are not legally considered currency, unlike the usd, which is accepted by the group that issues them (the us govt) for your debts to them (taxes). However, just because the issuing authority assigns them no value, it does not make them worthless. _____________________
I rent out land on private islands. Message me in-world for details. |
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Michael Bigwig
~VRML Aficionado~
Join date: 5 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,181
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08-10-2007 07:27
I personally think the only way to consider L$ is as real currency. There is a working transfer rate, and if I wanted to sell my $L right now, I'd receive USDs immediately--that is "currency" in my book.
If you want to question the stability of L$, that is a different story. I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket, let's just say that. _____________________
~Michael Bigwig
__________________________________________________Lead Designer, Glowbox Designs  |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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08-10-2007 07:28
but today robin linden stated that they did have value.
and we all know they have value, and their value dictates most of the decisions we make in sl. just because ll lawyers make us take an extra step of converting them to usd to pay tier their value is not diminished. the very fact i can _pay LL L$_ for land auctions is an open admission by LL that $L have a value. to claim L$ have no value is beyond disingenuous. |
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Atashi Toshihiko
Frequently Befuddled
Join date: 7 Dec 2006
Posts: 1,423
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08-10-2007 07:29
You cannot pay for any of your debts to LL with L$. How come every time I wanna upload something, they ding me for L$10? If Linden Lab holds that the L$ is worthless, then why bother collecting 10 of them for an upload? Or 50 of them (minimum) for a classified ad? If they wanted to be consistent, shouldn't they hit my account for a few US pennies? By accepting some payments in L$ they give the indication that sometimes the L$ does have value. Edited to add: Good point Nina, I forgot about that! I once payed a L$21,000 debt to Linden lab, in return for a chunk of land at an auction. No value, my arse. -Atashi _____________________
Visit Atashi's Art and Oddities Store and the Waikiti Motor Works at beautiful Waikiti.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-10-2007 07:34
How come every time I wanna upload something, they ding me for L$10? If Linden Lab holds that the L$ is worthless, then why bother collecting 10 of them for an upload? Or 50 of them (minimum) for a classified ad? If they wanted to be consistent, shouldn't they hit my account for a few US pennies? By accepting some payments in L$ they give the indication that sometimes the L$ does have value. Edited to add: Good point Nina, I forgot about that! I once payed a L$21,000 debt to Linden lab, in return for a chunk of land at an auction. No value, my arse. -Atashi And why do they bother regulating the exchange rate? They want them to be techinically not a currency for legal reasons. But of course the L$ has value - its worth what people are willing to pay you for it, or sell it for. Which is influenced directly by Linden Labs through Sinks (such as the upload fee or Classified ads) on one end and Supplies like stipends and Supply Linden on the other. |
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Novis Dyrssen
Girl Geek
Join date: 6 May 2007
Posts: 1,452
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08-10-2007 07:35
If Linden Lab holds that the L$ is worthless, then why bother collecting 10 of them for an upload? Or 50 of them (minimum) for a classified ad? I think in this case, it's not really about the money but rather about cluttering the system... eh, no, avoiding cluttering it with junk. If ppl have to pay even the small amount of 10 L$ for uploading, a lot of them will think twice about what they pushing into the system.  _____________________
~~ immortal words of Rob Thomas ~~
Hey-yeah, welcome to the Real World Nobody told you it was gonna be hard |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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08-10-2007 07:36
I agree Marty my point is should LL start accepting that they have created this issue and accept that the L$ has a real monetary value instead of keep hiding behind the TOS when something financial goes wrong They can't. They won't. And if they did, you could kiss Second Life goodbye. Linden Lab can't make themselves liable for the monetary value that SL residents have invested in the L$ in circulation and the user created content in Second Life. That value exceeds by a long way the real world value of Linden Lab's real world assets. They would open themselves up to lawsuits for any loss of data or anything that might cause an SL resident to lose L$. If the L$ were ever declared to be a real currency with an official monetary value beyond just what residents are willing to trade between themselves for it, Linden Lab's liability would be untenable. _____________________
 My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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08-10-2007 07:44
Lindens are not legal tender. Legal tender is authorized and backed by a government, and Linden Labs is not an arm of any state or federal government.
All things have a fair market value based on what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller for a thing on the open market. For an activity to be gambling, legal tender need not be wagered. Wagering can be done with any item of value. Sometimes the items wagered have a de minimus value, such that it's really only a symbolic wager rather than a true wager for valuable items. (Using matchsticks, for example.) It's hard to argue though that Lindens are only symbolic. Whether one might win 1 or 1000 matchsticks playing draw poker, those matchsticks are probably just thrown away at the end of the game. Lindens are kept in accounts and used in other forms of exchange. Of course, the F.B.I. interest in gambling on Second Life gives you an idea of what at least one government agency thinks of Lindens Labs' insistance that Lindens are only play money and that they can't be liable for your loss of Lindens because Lindens are only virtual and have no real value. Lindens aren't money, but they have real-life value, and their fair market value is actually quite easy to accurately determine. |
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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08-10-2007 07:54
They can't. They won't. And if they did, you could kiss Second Life goodbye. Linden Lab can't make themselves liable for the monetary value that SL residents have invested in the L$ in circulation and the user created content in Second Life. That value exceeds by a long way the real world value of Linden Lab's real world assets. They would open themselves up to lawsuits for any loss of data or anything that might cause an SL resident to lose L$. If the L$ were ever declared to be a real currency with an official monetary value beyond just what residents are willing to trade between themselves for it, Linden Lab's liability would be untenable. Thanks Chip where were you earlier? that was the bit i couldnt see and now you have pointed it out i can see it clearer now.Many thanks _____________________
Independent Shopping for Second Life residents from established and new merchants.
http://slapt.me slapt.me - In-World HQ http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastet/123/118/26 |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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08-10-2007 08:01
whats with all the strawmen? nobody is claiming L$ are a legal tender or an international currency, or are recognised by the world bank or can be used to pay the phone bill. who has ever claimed that? nobody. so why argue it?
the question is regarding VALUE. |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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08-10-2007 08:02
this comes a lot closer to an explanation than all the talk of world finance law and whatnot.
They can't. They won't. And if they did, you could kiss Second Life goodbye. Linden Lab can't make themselves liable for the monetary value that SL residents have invested in the L$ in circulation and the user created content in Second Life. That value exceeds by a long way the real world value of Linden Lab's real world assets. They would open themselves up to lawsuits for any loss of data or anything that might cause an SL resident to lose L$. If the L$ were ever declared to be a real currency with an official monetary value beyond just what residents are willing to trade between themselves for it, Linden Lab's liability would be untenable. |
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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08-10-2007 08:38
I've just discovered that it's a fun project to actually read the Terms of Service once in a while. Reading portions just now that I was going to use to respond to other posts here, I realized I had a misconception about the Terms of Service. The Terms of Service are actually fairly consisted with the advertising surrounding Second Life's economy.
The Terms of Service do not deny at all that Lindens have value. In fact, the Terms of Service acknowledge that Lindens are property, specifically property in the form of a license. To quote from the bold-faced first sentence of section 1.4 of the Terms of Service: Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.[\QUOTE] The Terms of Service call Lindens a fictional currency. However, using the fictional currency is pursuant to a real license. In the Terms of Service, Linden Labs denies any responsibility whatsoever for what may happen to your Lindens pursuant to their fault. However, the denial of responsibility has nothing to do with whether Lindens are virtual or real. The denials of responsibility come in some blanket provisions ("RELEASES, DISCLAIMERS OF WARRANTY, LIMITATION OF LIABILITY, AND INDEMNIFICATION" later on in which Linden Labs says essentially "we have no liability at all for annything we do," provisions that may or may not be enforceable in specific cases.The currency is fictional, but the fictional currency is symbolic of a real license, the value of which Linden Labs does not deny in the Terms of Service. Further, I don't find any inconsistencies between what it advertises, when you follow the web page link for "Buy and Sell Linden Dollars," and the language of the Terms of Service. Of course, the Terms of Service has a lot more of the "fine print," but now that I read both together, I don't find them inconsistent or misleading. |
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Novis Dyrssen
Girl Geek
Join date: 6 May 2007
Posts: 1,452
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08-10-2007 09:03
the question is regarding VALUE. As with all "valued" stuff, they only have that as long as people are willing to pay for them. So there's the bottom line. _____________________
~~ immortal words of Rob Thomas ~~
Hey-yeah, welcome to the Real World Nobody told you it was gonna be hard |
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Kidd Krasner
Registered User
Join date: 1 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,938
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08-10-2007 09:30
What i want to know is wether the L$ has a real monetary value, because according to the TOS it does not, ... TOS Section: 1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab. You acknowledge that the Service presently includes a component of in-world fictional currency ("Currency" or "Linden Dollars" or "L$" , which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature .... Regardless of terminology used, Linden Dollars represent a limited license right ... and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time.Let's be precise: It doesn't say they don't have monetary value. It says LL won't redeem them for a monetary value. That doesn't mean that no one else will. That quote from answers.com doesn't tell the entire story. Look at these Wikipedia articles for much more information, and which explain why the definition you quoted is wrong. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_currency 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_currency |
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Domaiv Decosta
Registered User
Join date: 3 Jun 2007
Posts: 243
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08-10-2007 11:46
That quote from answers.com doesn't tell the entire story. Look at these Wikipedia articles for much more information, and which explain why the definition you quoted is wrong. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_currency 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_currency I was just trying to make the point that its not really a straight forward answer. I think it does have a monetry value as people are willing to pay RL $ for it. Yes it can be classed as a currency as it can be exchanged and traded for goods. The difference here is that unlike your real $ it is, as said earlier, not backed by a Govenment, it is not legal tender, and like the eeecurrency its value is determined on its demand and use as it is not backed by gold reserves or other assets. |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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08-10-2007 12:00
Here's how it works:
1. Lindens are not real money and have no monetary value, according to LL and the TOS. 2. It's illegal to gamble online for real money. 3. Therefore, it is illegal to gamble with Lindens in SL. Notice a bit of disconnect in the logic there? That's because vital parts of the equation are unspoken: 1. Lindens are not real money and have no monetary value, according to LL and the TOS. (1a.) They can't say they are real, because then they would owe us for everything they lose, plus they might be prosecuted for creating a new currency. 2. It's illegal to gamble online for real money. (2a.) But even though they say this isn't real money, the feds might decide it is. (2b.) Rather than argue with the feds about whether it is real money or not (and thereby possibly lose the argument, and then lose their whole ball of wax, with the Lindex going first), they will consider that point moot, and treat it as if it were real money for the sake of argument with the feds. 3. Therefore, it is illegal to gamble with Lindens in SL. (3a.) Which isn't real money anyway. (3b.) So the feds can't get 'em on either count. (3c.) We can't play Bingo. (3d.) The end. coco _____________________
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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08-10-2007 12:05
not sure if that would be upto the FBI to decide. maybe they could have brought charges against LL then let a court decide. Then maybe LL decided not to take that chance. I agree with this point. I think LL didn't want to be challenged in court. If it were deemed that the L$ did have value then L$ transactions (not cashing out) could be deemed to be taxable. Sales tax, VAT yadda yadda yadda. Of course then business owners could get into claiming back tax and expenses but it would be one big can of worms and would surely discourage a lot of people from stepping foot here. As it stands, LL are maintaining that the L$ is a digital credit. |
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DJQuad Radio
Registered User
Join date: 5 May 2006
Posts: 320
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08-10-2007 14:30
Lindens are not legal tender. Nobody is saying they are. Despite what is claimed in the TOS, L$ clearly does have real value according to the reasons for the gambling ban and the Lindex. If anyone disagrees only money has value, please send me your L$, and while you're at it, your gold necklaces, diamond rings, your cars, and your ownership to your condo on the beach. After all, those are worth nothing unless I sell them, like L$. |
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Warda Kawabata
Amityville Horror
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,300
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08-10-2007 14:45
Here's how it works: 1. Lindens are not real money and have no monetary value, according to LL and the TOS. 2. It's illegal to gamble online for real money. 3. Therefore, it is illegal to gamble with Lindens in SL. Notice a bit of disconnect in the logic there? You're finding a disconnect where none exists. Number 3 is not correct. LL isn't banning gambling in SL specifically to comply with any law, but for their own business reasons. That it coincidentally makes it all but impossible to break that specific US law on online gambling is an added plus for them, but it isn't the reason they are doing this change. _____________________
I rent out land on private islands. Message me in-world for details. |
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DJQuad Radio
Registered User
Join date: 5 May 2006
Posts: 320
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08-10-2007 14:58
That it coincidentally makes it all but impossible to break that specific US law on online gambling is an added plus for them, but it isn't the reason they are doing this change. Huh? That's the ONLY reason they made the change. |