Do L$ have value or NOT??????

What i want to know is wether the L$ has a real monetary value, because according to the TOS it does not, so therefore if it has no value as LL says, how can they ban gambling because the people that gamble here are playing with and i quote "in-world fictional currency ("Currency" or "Linden Dollars" or "L$", which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of our product" so if its fictional then how can it be illegal to use a fictional currency?

I think the main question we all should be asking is......... Are L$ fictional or REAL?? If they are treating it as real for the sake of the gambling arguement then they should treat it as real on all fronts and start helping those that have been scammed in world etc. and take responsibility for loses incurred in game, as if the L$ is real enough for gambling then it should rightly be real enough for those that lose it to scammers etc.

So by saying gambling is illegal imho LL is saying that the L$ has a real monetary value therefore maybe they should start rethinking their policies towards the L$ and that it is no longer a fictional currency as if it was a fictional currency then gambling could not possibly be illegal............

I do not own any gambling machines and i have no stake in any casinos, neither do i mind wether we do or do not have casinos in SL I just thourght it would be interesting to hear other peoples ideas on this subject of the L$ as in all the angry exchanges about gambling we are forgeting this one important issue imho.

Lets not turn the thread into a flame fest as there enough of them in the forum atm i feel its a thread that we could have have some interesting debate on.

Let the debating begin ...................

Peace

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Definition:

"fic·tion (fkshn)
n.
1.
a. An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented.
b. The act of inventing such a creation or pretense.
2. A lie.
3.
a. A literary work whose content is produced by the imagination and is not necessarily based on fact.
b. The category of literature comprising works of this kind, including novels and short stories.
4. Law Something untrue that is intentionally represented as true by the narrator."

TOS Section:

1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.

You acknowledge that the Service presently includes a component of in-world fictional currency ("Currency" or "Linden Dollars" or "L$", which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of our product when, as, and if allowed by Linden Lab. Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Linden Dollars represent a limited license right governed solely under the terms of this Agreement, and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time. You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, in any general or specific case, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right.

1.5 Second Life offers an exchange, called LindeX, for the trading of Linden Dollars, which uses the terms "buy" and "sell" to indicate the transfer of license rights to use Linden Dollars. Use and regulation of LindeX is at Linden Lab's sole discretion.

The Service currently includes a component called "Currency Exchange" or "LindeX," which refers to an aspect of the Service through which Linden Lab administers transactions among users for the purchase and sale of the licensed right to use Currency. Notwithstanding any other language or context to the contrary, as used in this Agreement and throughout the Service in the context of Currency transfer: (a) the term "sell" means "to transfer for consideration to another user the licensed right to use Currency in accordance with the Terms of Service," (b) the term "buy" means "to receive for consideration from another user the licensed right to use Currency in accordance with the Terms of Service," (c) the terms "buyer," "seller", "sale" and "purchase" and similar terms have corresponding meanings to the root terms "buy" and "sell," (d) "sell order" and similar terms mean a request from a user to Linden Lab to list Currency for sale on the Currency Exchange at a requested sale price, and "buy order" and similar terms mean a request from a user for Linden Lab to match open sale listings with a requested purchase price and facilitate completion of the sale of Currency.

You agree and acknowledge that Linden Lab may deny any sell order or buy order individually or with respect to general volume or price limitations set by Linden Lab for any reason. Linden Lab may limit sellers or buyers to any group of users at any time. Linden Lab may halt, suspend, discontinue, or reverse any Currency Exchange transaction (whether proposed, pending or past) in cases of actual or suspected fraud, violations of other laws or regulations, or deliberate disruptions to or interference with the Service.

Hmm, this is a good question.

One thing you have to remember is that LL didn't ban gambling 'because they felt like it'. There was some pressure from the FBI on that.

Do the FBI, then, think L$ are real money? If they do, LL's TOS is pretty much unenforceable on that point. However, I'm not clear on the exact wording of the anti-gambling law, so I wouldn't know: maybe they don't.

not sure if that would be upto the FBI to decide. maybe they could have brought charges against LL then let a court decide. Then maybe LL decided not to take that chance.

yes i agree its not why LL banned gambling for me, the law is the law in whatever country to me its the implications of the status of L$, is it now a real currency or not

Peace

Well, it has an exchange rate, and you can change them back to real money. Also, you have to pay real money to get them. To me, that pretty much puts a certain value on them. So yes, SL is a currency.

robin linden clearly stated on todays blog that l$ have rw value:

"If you aren’t sure, ask yourself if your game meets the criteria in the policy: Linden dollars are paid in, the outcome is random, Linden dollars or something else of value is paid out."

info from

http://www.answers.com/currency&r=67



when put like this then the $L is not a currency:


Currency
A generally accepted form of money, including coins and paper notes, which is issued by a government and circulated within an economy. Used as a medium of exchange for goods and services, currency is the basis for trade.




But from the same site:


Money in any form when in actual use as a medium of exchange, especially circulating paper money.

I agree with you as to me L$ represent real currency just in the way they are traded and exchanged for RL cash I posed the question to see what the general concensus of opinion was as this issue got lost in the gambling ban and LL stands by its stance that the L$ is fictional atm

Peace

I don't really see $L as cash. More like currency in the same way a chicken could be currency. Lets say I breed chickens and your a baker, so I trade you 1 chicken for 2 loaves of bread.

Well if Linden dollars didn't have value, I would getting very hungry by now.

You couldn't bother to use search to find one of the other 20 recent threads that talk about that?

LL will not currently under any circumstance buy back, or accept L$ as payment, so as far as LL is concerned, L$ are indeed without value because they simply won't redeem them.

The question of whether or not the linden dollar has real monetary value is irrelevant to the gambling ban.

SL can be likened to private club, and as such, can make any restrictions on activities inside it, above and beyond any restrictions that are actually required by law (unless of course such restrictions would themselves be illegal).

But to answer your question, many people do consider the L$ to have value, but SL has an official policy of not buying them from you under any circumstances, and no, they don't buy them from you in the lindex - that's just exhcanges between SL residents.

Just because LL refuses to buy lindens back doesn't mean they don't have value.

Actually i did prior to posting but as i didnt see any direct threads on the subject i started this one, dam we must make sure everyone puts keywords in the thread titles and i must brush up on my mind reading skills so i can pre-empt the correct keywords to search for feel free to post any relevant thread URLs tho

Peace

PS: The last sentence is what i am on about with my question how can LL acknowledge that L$ are real for the sake of the gambling ban then say they are a fictional currency when some loses them to a scammer, account hijack etc. so that they dont have to take responsibility for whatever has happened and replace said L$ and no i have never lost a L$ since i joined

I know that. But their refusal to buy them back satisfies the legal requirement for whether they can be considered a currency or not.

Put it this way. My rare book collection has value. Others are willing to pay high prices for some of them. That doesn't make them a legally defined currency, because the respective publishers of those books won't buy them back of me.

I agree with your first point thats why i said it in my OP I wanted to know as to wether that now it has a RL value as by banning gambling they are saying it does, therefore if they are saying that surely it follows that LL will have to change the TOS to protect people against the unscrupulous in game as they have a responsibility to protect the users of their currency when they lose money or have it stolen, it cant be fictional and real at the same time

Its a subject that makes for an interesting debate

Interesting, what do you get when you redeem your US Federal Reserve Notes?

can you see any similarities with the $L?

http://www.answers.com/topic/eeecurrency

Since USA banned internet gambling, LL can't risk being involved. even peripherally, with it.

Whether Linden Dollars are real currency or not, LL, as the owners of Second Life, are perfectly within their rights to ban gambling with L$ even if there were no legal issues over internet gambling.

Gambling used to be allowed in Second Life, now it's not allowed. People should just accept the fact and move on.

You get a little bit of the USA's debt. Not a very good exchange at all, really. In this regard, the US economy is a massive ponzi scheme that hasn't collapsed yet, because everyone the world over is afraid of the global recession that calling the US government on it would cause.

I agree LL can do whatever they want with the game/platform and i agree people should move on from the issue of gambling, i am just curious as to the way LL accepts its responsibilities over issues such as these as a lot of people have a lot of RL money tied up in this fictional currency

hmmm are these Bonds adminstered by an SL bank

To me, L$ feel more like the tokens in a game of poker. Inside the game, they have value, and yes, you can exchange them for real money... but only if the bank cooperates.

Come to think of it, the poker/SL analogy may not be so farfetched, considering some things that happened lately...

look on the bright side, whatever happens in SL the $L is still going to be worth more than the ZWD (zimbabwe). As of 25th of june $L675 would make you a millionaire in ZWD (Parallel exchange rate not official).

ALL Currency has no value....

They are only IOU's from banks promissing to "pay the barer", therefor in reality is LL any different.

They have restricted the ability to trade in Lindens .... which is very bank like, you cant make them only LL can again very bank like, they have no value in themselves.

Plus you need to remember that the MAJORITY of SL's appeal is the ability to play a game and make some RL money out of your skill.... what pull to a game that is SO BLOODY EXPENSIVE would there be.

We have seen a load of islands up for sale recently as people can no longer afford to run them since the gambling ban.

Theres just so many things....... but i would say YES Lindens have a value... but only as long as LL allows them to... imagine if tommorow LL decided they would no longer trade Lindens for cash or allow the trade.