Is Paying for Links in Profile Picks Cheating?
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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09-09-2008 15:31
From: Rene Erlanger At long last....I've been waiting for someone to finally to bring this point up! I think some people (and most likely participants on this thread) have this notion that all you need to do is simply "create" a product, place them for sale......"and then they will come" (quote from the "Field of Dreams" film)
For some strange reason some people believe that LL should do their marketing for them, whilst sitting back waiting for sales to happen!
To be successful in SL imo, you need create quality products to begin with...and the other 50% of the time you should spend marketing your company and its products. Now that can take many forms from.... search optimatisation, classifieds optimisation, notices into large consumer groups, forum postings of new product, listing businesses on 3rd party websites, holding events, having sales on discontinued items, placing ads in SL newspapers, placing adverts on radio streams, having DJ's advertise your company inside clubs, create a blog site, create large customer group base, get your products blogged....etc etc.......and yes, i have done most of these at some point.
If you just sit there on your bottom and do nothing........or do nothing except point the blame for your failed business or lower than expected sales....because of Picks, bots and keyword spamming or whatever the favourite fad is at the time....you're seriously dillusional.!
As they say "cream always rises to the top"...and you can remove picks,bots or whatever.....and the majority of successful and BEST RUN companies...will still remain the best run companies. They work hard in maintaining that success...be it more or improved products or better effective marketing. These are types of businesses that can adapt to any changing business enviroment. It's exactly that.... a business....not a hobby. Not many hobbyists make significant income!
Take bots & picks out.....and i bet you'll find that both Phil & Marcel will still make decent monthly sales.....they'll simply research alternatives, because they'll do their homework! Or those with trash products can spend 90% of their time manipulating search in such a way that their products are the ones selling because the consumers are not going to dig though all the search result pages to find the good ones. After all cream isn't all that rises to the top too. You are assuming that there are not some out there doing marketing, but not resorting to what they see as unethical business practices. One could say it's alright to manipulate search to heck and back, and sell boxes with pictures of products inside them... but nothing else. The traffic (from bots/campers) would show a lot of visits, and they would be ranked high in search... but not for quality but from manipulation of search. And since there is nothing against it in the ToS or CS they can claim to be legit business owners. Search needs to be set up where it can not easily be manipulated by the users, and if manipulated to the point it is now... there should be punishments for it
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-09-2008 15:33
From: Rene Erlanger There are many forms of marketing & advertising and it's a definite skill in itself.
Why do you thing its such a large worldwide industry and why billions of dollars are spent on it!
I have seen a several talented SL creators who absolutely clueless at marketing or selling their products. They make virtually zero sales.
I should know more than most.....i have a mega talented SL partner and SL son who both create many different types of SL products..........yet when it comes to selling their products..............forget it! Your argument is SPIN the bottom line is this --- Person A --- Limited to Standard Business Practices Person B ----Uses both Questionable and Standard Business Practices. Person B has a distinct advantage. Because they "cheat" or "game" or whatever you want to call it this week. The questionable portion is unfair, regardless of how sucessful person A is or is not at marketing. |
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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09-09-2008 15:34
From: Colette Meiji Your argument is SPIN
the bottom line is this ---
Person A --- Limited to Standard Business Practices
Person B ----Uses both Questionable and Standard Business Practices.
Person B has a distinct advantage. Because they "cheat" or "game" or whatever you want to call it this week.
The questionable portion is unfair, regardless of how sucessful person A is or is not at marketing. I think he forgets cream and pond scum both rise to the top.
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
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Rene Erlanger
Scuderia Shapes & Skins G
Join date: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2,008
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09-09-2008 15:36
From: Colette Meiji This all would make more sense if you weren't expecting honest sellers to compete with those using questionable business practices. Lol- my case in point.....you probably fit the criteria of letting LL market your products for you. ALL search and Places search are just a parts of the entire marketing process.....if you rely solely on just these 2 mechanisms and don't make any effort to optimise either of them......you're going to struggle. In my case i have chosen to ignore Places Search .....as i'm too far down the listing to attract attention on the most common keywords in my sector. .....so that just leaves me ALL Search and other forms of advertising. |
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Rene Erlanger
Scuderia Shapes & Skins G
Join date: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2,008
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09-09-2008 15:41
From: Colette Meiji Your argument is SPIN
the bottom line is this ---
Person A --- Limited to Standard Business Practices
Person B ----Uses both Questionable and Standard Business Practices.
Person B has a distinct advantage. Because they "cheat" or "game" or whatever you want to call it this week.
The questionable portion is unfair, regardless of how sucessful person A is or is not at marketing. Regardless of bots or picks.....even if they did not exist and ALL search was text driven or whatever way you want it to be.....my SL partner and Son would still struggle selling their products. It's just not there forte.......and the same applies to many talented creators within SL. So please don't pull wool over people's eyes talking in riddles and ignoring a great portion of what i have written for your own nit picking (typical trait of yours) |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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09-09-2008 15:45
From: Rene Erlanger Quel surpreeeze!
I should of known better..... the same grouping from the Bots thread, find themselves here- rofl I don't recognise Shimmy from any thread, let alone the other one. Your long post was excellent. It's something that does get mentioned from time to time - the idea that some people just want to open a shop and sit back, leaving SL to deliver people to it via search. And when it doesn't happen, they blame whatever they can except themselves. It doesn't apply as much to the All search as to the Places tab, because of camping and traffic bots, but the mentality does seem to be there with the All search too. |
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Phil Deakins
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Join date: 17 Jan 2007
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09-09-2008 15:49
This thread is about the All search, and there's hardly any gaming going on in it. Anyone can move up the rankings, without any need for questionable practises, if they want put at least a little effort into it. If they don't do anything about it, they don't have anything to complain about.
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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09-09-2008 15:49
From: Phil Deakins
Your long post was excellent. It's something that does get mentioned from time to time - the idea that some people just want to open a shop and sit back, leaving SL to deliver people to it via search. And when it doesn't happen, they blame whatever they can except themselves. It doesn't apply as much to the All search as to the Places tab, because of camping and traffic bots, but the mentality does seem to be there with the All search too.
That isn't the issue. The issue is the need to behave in a questionable manner in order to do this, and the parallel danger of needing to outbid established businesses. The first is damaging to moral behaviour and the second is damaging to all innovation. For Search All, there's also the issue of needing to play "hunt the secret" - again, against people who have been doing this for years (let's remember that Phil is in this category). Again, poor for innovation. As I've mentioned before, exactly for the "innovation" reason, some sites (like SLX) _do_ just "automatically sell" every product uploaded, via their highlighting of _all_ newly uploaded products. You're quite right that marketing is an important skill (although ideally its importance should be reduced by world design if possible - a capitalist economy becomes "better" the more perfect information consumers have), but that's not the same as outbidding or engaging in clearly unscalable behaviour. |
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Rene Erlanger
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Join date: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2,008
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09-09-2008 15:52
From: MortVent Charron Or those with trash products can spend 90% of their time manipulating search in such a way that their products are the ones selling because the consumers are not going to dig though all the search result pages to find the good ones.
After all cream isn't all that rises to the top too.
You are assuming that there are not some out there doing marketing, but not resorting to what they see as unethical business practices.
One could say it's alright to manipulate search to heck and back, and sell boxes with pictures of products inside them... but nothing else. The traffic (from bots/campers) would show a lot of visits, and they would be ranked high in search... but not for quality but from manipulation of search.
And since there is nothing against it in the ToS or CS they can claim to be legit business owners.
Search needs to be set up where it can not easily be manipulated by the users, and if manipulated to the point it is now... there should be punishments for it I would say Phil & Marcel are legit business owners....they have put the work in. What have you display or sell? Have you made a 1000 units of furniture for example? I've also visited Marcel's place too (he doesn't know it!)...they are maximising thier returns for the effort they put in. When bots and picks disappear or change......they'll still be sellling. Would you like to place a bet on that? Successful businesses like Simone, ETD, Celesrial,Nominee, Awesome Designs,House of RFyre,TRU, etc etc....they don't need high traffic or search rankings...in fact they probably don't even need to place a classified ad....they still sell and their brand name gets out there in many forms |
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Phil Deakins
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Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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09-09-2008 15:55
From: Yumi Murakami That isn't the issue. The issue is the need to behave in a questionable manner in order to do this, and the parallel danger of needing to outbid established businesses. The first is damaging to moral behaviour and the second is damaging to all innovation.
As I've mentioned before, exactly for the "innovation" reason, some sites (like SLX) _do_ just "automatically sell" every product uploaded, via their highlighting of newly uploaded products.
You're quite right that marketing is an important skill (although ideally its importance should be reduced by world design if possible - a capitalist economy becomes "better" the more perfect information consumers have), but that's not the same as outbidding or engaging in clearly unscalable behaviour. What do you mean by "outbidding"? Do you mean paying more for picks than others? I've never paid anyone for a Pick, or done anything else of a questiobale nature to reach #1 in my field. To climb the ranking requires that a person actually does something, rather than blaming other people for their poor rankings. If an engine could rank places on the quality of goods, etc. it would be brilliant, but no search engine in the world can do that, so if anyone wants to do well in the rankings, DO IT. Don't imagine that there is any right to be ranked highly, and don't imagine that, if you make it, they will come - they won't unless you take steps to achieve that. |
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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09-09-2008 16:07
From: Rene Erlanger I would say Phil & Marcel are legit business owners....they have put the work in.
What have you display or sell? Have you made a 1000 units of furniture for example?
I've also visited Marcel's place too (he doesn't know it!)...they are maximising thier returns for the effort they put in.
When bots and picks disappear or change......they'll still be sellling. Would you like to place a bet on that?
Successful businesses like Simone, ETD, Celesrial,Nominee, Awesome Designs,House of RFyre,TRU, etc etc....they don't need high traffic or search rankings...in fact they probably don't even need to place a classified ad....they still sell and their brand name gets out there in many forms Many out there still use the items I made and stopped selling. I sold on on-rez and slx (till I got some bs there). Most of what I do is scripting, and usually only for friends. I don't normally charge even, preferring the challenges. Some items were even just for kicks, I keep seeing a doughnut I made all over the place. Doesn't change the fact that all the searches can be manipulated by practices that are questionable at best (and exploits at worst), and it's not just stores but the consumers that should take notice about it. The reason someone said they used bots was because places was being manipulated with them and campers till he couldn't be high up in the list till they used them. So was that marketing or manipulation of the search metrics? There is a difference as you well know. If you claim it's marketing to find ways to manipulate the metrics, then one could say finding a string that allows altering the google appliance to always place an item first in any and all searches would be marketing. Especially as some would point out there is nothing in the ToS or CS that says you can't explicitly do it, so it's therefore a legit action.
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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09-09-2008 16:08
From: Rene Erlanger What have you display or sell? Have you made a 1000 units of furniture for example? That brings up another point - one that I've never seen mentioned. It is absolutely true that the more variety of goods a shop has for sale, the more items will be sold. I'll make the point by exaggerting it. If someone is looking for a sofa, and they visit one shop that sells just one sofa, and another shop that sells 50 sofas. In which shop is the person more likely to find one that they like enough to buy? I wonder how many business owners, who don't manage to make a go of it, only have a small number of items for sale. I imagine some of them will blame their poor sales on other people gaming search because a few people here tell them that. |
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Colette Meiji
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Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-09-2008 16:14
From: Rene Erlanger Regardless of bots or picks.....even if they did not exist and ALL search was text driven or whatever way you want it to be.....my SL partner and Son would still struggle selling their products. It's just not there forte.......and the same applies to many talented creators within SL.
So please don't pull wool over people's eyes talking in riddles and ignoring a great portion of what i have written for your own nit picking (typical trait of yours) There was no point debating the intricacies of your posts on this tangent; Because you wont acknowledge the basic premise that makes you wrong. The whole idea that someone who plays fair should *have* to compete on equal footing with someone who cheats is ludicrous. While that may end up being the reality due to inaction by authority- it certainly isn't justifiable. ----------------- The fact that some people are bad at marketing whether they cheat or not, is not relevant. It only becomes relevant once people are allowed to compete fairly. |
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Rene Erlanger
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Join date: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2,008
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09-09-2008 16:18
Its really not that hard to get noticed through ALL search, if you know how...its a lot easier oviously for niche products and you don't really need Picks to get there. It's harder but not impossible in the saturated sectors and that's the area where PICKS would be useful in giving a boost to rankings.....but it will only get you up so far. Reading the whole thread, it' s clear that some people arguing from an ethics point of view don't even understand how ALL search works or which parameters are relevant. I did have private chuckle at some of the scenarios mentioned!  Ciaran tried to enlightened them...but i think it just went whoosh over their heads. As far I'm concerned they were ignorant when shooting off their scenarios.....they can remain ignorant thereafter. |
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Colette Meiji
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Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-09-2008 16:21
From: Rene Erlanger Its really not that hard to get noticed through ALL search, if you know how...its a lot easier oviously for niche products and you don't really need Picks to get there. It's harder but not impossible in the saturated sectors and that's the area where PICKS would be useful in giving a boost to rankings.....but it will only get you up so far. Reading the whole thread, it' s clear that some people arguing from an ethics point of view don't even understand how ALL search works or which parameters are relevant. I did have private chuckle at some of the scenarios mentioned! Ciaran tried to enlightened them...but i think it just went whoosh over their heads. As far I'm concerned they were ignorant when shooting off their scenarios.....they can remain ignorant thereafter. UM... did you miss the title and the original post? The subject of this thread is the Ethics point of view of paying for Picks. Not how to make the All Search work for you. That thread is located in the Sticky started by Cristalle. |
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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09-09-2008 16:23
From: Colette Meiji UM... did you miss the title and the original post?
The subject of this thread is the Ethics point of view of paying for Picks.
Not how to make the All Search work for you. That thread is located in the Sticky started by Cristalle. Do you really expect them to pay that much attention? The impression I'm getting is they will be trolling any forum topic that brings up ethics and business
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
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Colette Meiji
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Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-09-2008 16:25
From: MortVent Charron Do you really expect them to pay that much attention?
The impression I'm getting is they will be trolling any forum topic that brings up ethics and business I just thought it was strange people's contributions to the topic were being downplayed because they stuck to the actual topic of the thread. |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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09-09-2008 16:30
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the title and OP ask the question whether or not paying for picks is cheating? If they do, then I don't think the OP would have wanted a simple "yes" or "no" in every post. This is a forum, and it shoud be discussed. Part of the dicussion goes into other aspects of the topic. Also, you lot (the anti-bots) bring every method pf so-called gaming into any thread like this. Go take a look at the current bots thread, for instance, and see who included picks camping in it  Anyone reading that thread could never get the idea that it's just about bots. |
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Rene Erlanger
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Join date: 28 Sep 2006
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09-09-2008 16:31
From: Phil Deakins That brings up another point - one that I've never seen mentioned. It is absolutely true that the more variety of goods a shop has for sale, the more items will be sold. I'll make the point by exaggerting it. If someone is looking for a sofa, and they visit one shop that sells just one sofa, and another shop that sells 50 sofas. In which shop is the person more likely to find one that they like enough to buy?
I wonder how many business owners, who don't manage to make a go of it, only have a small number of items for sale. I imagine some of them will blame their poor sales on other people gaming search because a few people here tell them that. This is obvious to us and many successful SL businesses.....but obviously not by all! I won't mentioned any names, but someone who was active in the "other" thread fits that category. That person made only a few items of very poor quality....and were displayed in a very poor arrangement. It wasn't even inside a proper shop......you wouldn't know whether you were supposed to sit on the products or buy them. This is not a business! .....and i'd be surprised if a couple of units were sold in any given week. To be honest it's not even worthy of being shown on any search.......you might as well set out a empty prim and say "buy me" |
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Phil Deakins
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09-09-2008 16:32
From: MortVent Charron Do you really expect them to pay that much attention?
The impression I'm getting is they will be trolling any forum topic that brings up ethics and business Some of us will be posting in any thread where false information is posted about search. |
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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09-09-2008 16:32
From: Phil Deakins Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the title and OP ask the question whether or not paying for picks is cheating? If they do, then I don't think the OP would have wanted a simple "yes" or "no" in every post. This is a forum, and it shoud be discussed. Part of the dicussion goes into other aspects of the topic. Also, you lot (the anti-bots) bring every method pf so-called gaming into any thread like this. Go take a look at the bots thread and see who included picks camping in it Phil: one can not argue the ethics of one method of manipulation of search without including all methods. After all if one is wrong, are not all of them wrong if they can be used to skew search to the point the original idea behind the metric is corrupted beyond repair?
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
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09-09-2008 16:34
From: Phil Deakins Some of us will be posting in any thread where false information is posted about search. Indeed, that is why many of us post when we see information posted in such threads with no evidence other than "I said so" to back them up. Everyone can see the evidence of the system being manipulated, that evidence can not be denied. The debate is and always will be to a point over the ethical issues of using the methods of skewing the results.
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
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Rene Erlanger
Scuderia Shapes & Skins G
Join date: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2,008
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09-09-2008 16:35
From: Colette Meiji UM... did you miss the title and the original post?
The subject of this thread is the Ethics point of view of paying for Picks.
Not how to make the All Search work for you. That thread is located in the Sticky started by Cristalle. Tell me something Collette.....would you ever sell your products in a Mall that used a Picks machine? |
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Phil Deakins
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Join date: 17 Jan 2007
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09-09-2008 16:38
From: MortVent Charron Phil: one can not argue the ethics of one method of manipulation of search without including all methods. Do you mean like, in a thread that's specifically about traffic bots, which only applies to the Places tab, it's best not to bring up things like HTML, which only applies to the All tab? Is that you mean, Mort? But either you or I got it wrong. I thought that Colette was saying that the thread is about one specific thing, meaning that it shouldn't go through other things as well. Was I mistaken? If I wasn't mistaken, then you disagree with Colette, as do I. |
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Phil Deakins
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09-09-2008 16:39
From: MortVent Charron Indeed, that is why many of us post when we see information posted in such threads with no evidence other than "I said so" to back them up.
Everyone can see the evidence of the system being manipulated, that evidence can not be denied.
The debate is and always will be to a point over the ethical issues of using the methods of skewing the results. I'm sure it will, Mort, I'm sure it will. Some people claim that it's a question of ethics, other say that it's nothing to do with ethics, so I'm sure you're right. |