full bright skin option as opposed to facelights

It's not hypocritical at all. I'm explaining what can be done now, so she can have pretty pictures and enjoy looking at herself (and, by extension, everyone else) without facelights. It doesn't mean that I advocate that we continue using a limited graphical system.

OK, I guess you're not going to acknowledge that the motivation for using facelights might possibly differ from "so she can have pretty pictures", so I won't go down that road again.

It is not "meaningless" and I am far from a maniac.

You know most people? I didn't think so.

It's a work in progress, and yes, they have a long way to go. They have increased the ambient lighting and have removed the layer of gray on avatars. You can see the difference between viewers.

You've gone off the rails. I am not saying that the problem isn't real. I am saying that there is a non-scripted way to attack the problem that doesn't ruin everyone else's immersion. Even if they properly implement materials, skin is still going to be a little green if I use Gelatto and purple if I use Funky Funky Funky. But they won't know unless I take a picture and drop it on them.

That said, I sincerely doubt that most facelight folks bother to ask people around them if their light is too bright and if it looks good to the present company. The answers would vary with the opinions of the company, and would a facelighter really take off their light if they were in the presence of someone that hated them? I don't think so. Amp up the ambient light and scene gamma.

Here you are substituting what you think I should like with what you like. Yes, mute will do a lot but it leaves a gray presence on the screen. If I really don't want to see someone I would like it to be all the way.

The subject of this thread isn't "facelights suck", it's "full bright skin option as opposed to facelights". Until Linden Labs does something serious about the solution suggested by "full bright skin option", people aren't going to stop using facelights.
That attacks the problem you are attacking, yes. It doesn't attack the problem that no matter what I do in my viewer, people are still going to see me as the Michelin Man (not, I hasten to add, that I would use facelights to try and fix this). You consider this problem irrelevant. The facelighters have a different opinion. They're not going to be convinced by telling them the problem they want to solve doesn't matter.

I see it the same way i truly enjoy my undisturbed reading sessions in the train when my phone jammer is running.

It's not irrelevant. I'm not telling them that the problem that facelighters want to solve doesn't matter. I'm telling them that increasing the ambient light and scene gamma will help them solve their problem without ruining the lighting experience for other people. The problem for non-human avatars is different and has nothing to do with facelights, as you acknowledged. It is a different issue and requires a different solution but you keep conflating the two.

Even if LL improves the mesh and adds materials, there are people who are still going to want to use facelights to get rid of the "ghastly" shadows, to micromanage their appearance beyond what they can see on their own screen, even if others may want everyone to appear greenish or purplish on their own screen.

No matter what they do with their Windlight settings on their screen they will still look like Bizarro Supergirl to everyone else.

The problem of human avatars looking like Bizarro people, and non-human avatars looking like the Michelin Man, is the same problem.

Since windlight DOES affect how your avatar looks, telling her to adjust her windlight settings is decidedly not stupid.

If one can be solved with a facelight and not another, they are not the same problem, though they may be related.

And the problem of looking like "Bizarro Supergirl" is something they have to live with for the time being, until improvements to the graphics are made, because we can turn off their lights. While I welcome mesh improvements and materials, and a better default light setting, I don't appreciate facelights that are being used for non-photography purposes stealing my local lights. Personally, I find the folks looking like they have a flashlight under their chin to be more ridiculous than "Bizarro Supergirl." If it's the opinion of others that matters, then why does mine not count? It doesn't, and you're still going to wear your flashlight anyway? It proves that you don't really care about how others see you, and what matters most is how you appear on your screen.

It's all about the numbers. You can't demonstrate that a significant percentage of the people looking at them are going to turn off their lights, or are even going to *want* to turn off their lights, they have no incentive to care if you do or not.

You're not the one they care about seeing them looking, in their opinion, good.

Look.

I hate it when people reply to an email by writing a few lines at the top of the reply and quoting my whole damn message, unedited, below that. I prefer they cut out the section of the email that they are interested in commenting on and putting their reply below that, the way people do it on this forum.

But the people who do this are using Outlook, and Outlook makes it a real pain to do anything but top-posting. And they actually like the way top-posting works. And they believe that other people do too.

I used to ask people to summarize instead of top-posting, but I've given up on that. They like it, they like other people seeing their messages like that, and what *they* believe is what governs their behavior.

Facelighters like the way facelights look, they like other people looking that way, they want other people who they care about to see them that way. If a few people (and even I, who dislike facelights intensely, don't believe that it's proportionally that many people) dislike facelights enough to turn them off and wear blocker prims (which incidentally screw up local lights more than facelights), that's not going to convince them to turn them off.

This is a good point, actually. It's a little difficult to believe that someone uses facelights because he/she wants -others- to see them a certain way, when they completely disregard peoples' feedback. Because no matter how many facelights you use, or how artfully-placed they are, you really have no way of knowing whether other people are "seeing you" the way you want them to. So this whole "other people" thing sounds more like a rationalization than an actual reason.

Do you use Voice?

No...?

Nonsense, Argent. So they only care about the people who don't hate facelights thinking that they look good? You've argued yourself into a dirt dart and shown how ridiculous the rationalization is.

Facelighters don't like the way facelights look, they like the way THEY look ON THEIR SCREEN. They have no clue how others see them, and DON'T REALLY CARE. Otherwise, they would ask everyone how they looked and if their face looked okay and there would be no such thing as the nuclear facelight because they would know that they look ridiculous.

They care about the people who matter to them. Their friends, the people they hang out with, the people in the stores and clubs they frequent. Who else do you think they care about?

Unless a bunch of their peers tell them their facelights suck, they're going to assume that their peers (many of whom also use facelights) like them. They're going to pay attention to people they consider important, like the people who run the stores and clubs they like who have freebie facelights at the entrance.

Of course they do, because they can see other people with facelights, and they like what they see.

Do you use voice?

Have you considered that some people are too polite to tell them that they look stupid? A lot of times, the facelight burns my eyes, even with a small radius, but I don't tell people that they look silly. I let them enjoy their immersion, and in the meanwhile I turn attached lights off. But to come here to argue for "full bright skin" is a different thing, and shouldn't be met with anger when suggesting a windlight adjustment solves the problem for them (and they can share with their friends since it will make their friends look better too).

As for voice, I use it. So what?

I'm sure that is true.

I'm not sure how that changes the validity of the point I'm trying to make. I'm not saying "everyone they know likes their facelights". I'm saying "they are of the opinion that enough people like their facelights that they continue to wear them".

And, yes, many facelighters don't like the nuclear facelights either, they even promote "subtle facelights" and help each other set them up.

If everyone using facelights switched to "subtle facelights", would you be happy with the situation?


I am of the opinion that voice is the worst thing that has happened to SL, that it has fundamentally and irreversibly changed the way SL works, for the worse, and that people who use voice are significantly degrading my enjoyment of Second Life. What can I do about it? Nothing.

You can do nothing about facelights, until Linden Labs makes them no longer desirable to the community that uses them.

You changed your point to fit my response.

They do not really care if people like their facelights. If they did, we wouldn't have the nuclear facelight problem. Most people who use facelights are just ignorant (not in a pejorative sense, in the sense that they just don't know) how they appear to others, and these things are everywhere so they use them.

To answer your question, no. They often add to script lag and increase the avatar rendering cost, when a Windlight adjustment would suffice and have no impact on anyone else, or the sim performance.

That designers and others continue to push facelights as a solution is a problem. A concerted effort among designers to improve the user experience by teaching people how to affect their Windlight settings would go a long way to improving the situation, especially since it would also improve their friends' looks too. But LL hasn't made Windlight terribly user friendly, and sharing settings is not as easy as it could be. That is yet another knock on LL.


o.0

Voice is something you can turn off, like we can turn off attached lights. Further, there is a means for people to use voice without intruding on others' immersion and you would never know they were using it.

I don't hate all facelights - I have some for night photos. But I don't walk around like it's Halloween every day with a flashlight to my face. But LL HAS allowed me to do something about it. I turn them off. That's good enough for now. And if I can help someone increase their viewing pleasure by modding Windlight, I will share the knowledge.

The nuclear facelighters are by no means the majority any more.
Then nuclear facelights aren't the issue, facelights are, so I'm not changing the subject.
Now you're telling me that my experience is invalid. I kind of figured you would. That's OK, I accept that people don't recognize the impact of voice on people who don't use voice and are thus excluded from conversations, left wondering if people are using voice or just idling, and so on. Please don't try and explain why my perception of voice is wrong, just think about it, OK?

I use to use a facelight when I was in SL on my crappy laptop with a crappy video card. I never realized until I got this computer how god awful bright they were. I no longer use one now.

When you hear people speaking in language you don't understand, do you ever get the feeling they're talking about you? Or if you walk into a store or restaurant, and some quietly-talking people suddenly start giggling, do you get the feeling they're making fun of you?

I think you're misunderstanding the point I was making, but that's OK, I accept that.

I'm not going to respond with quotes of what was said, you can go back and see exactly what I quoted and my response. You're losing context.


Melodrama.

I'm not telling you that your experience is invalid. Simple disagreement is not invalidation of your opinion or your needs.

For the record, I don't yammer on in voice on public channels. I don't use it unless someone asks me to, or it is a friend that I use it with over IM - which DOESN'T AFFECT YOU ANYWAY, since it would be an IM if voice didn't exist.

My point is, and has always been, that the people who are using facelights honestly believe that they are making themselves look better to other people, and that there is a community of such people who do see what facelights look like to other people because they see other people using them.

SOME of them have nuclear facelights, but they are a minority, and you have said you're not just objecting to nuclear facelights, so that's irrelevant.

SOME people turn off attached local lights. You argue that this means that people using facelights are wasting their time. That would only be true if the majority of people did that. I contend that this is not even a significant minority.

But the bottom line is this, it's always been this: there are two possible reasons that people might be using facelights:

1. The want to look good on their screen.
2. They want to look good on other people's screens.

You seem to be arguing that because they don't know, for sure, whether the people they are hanging out with can see their facelights, they can't possibly be motivated by #2. If so, then that would mean that no facelighters care how anyone else sees them, so long as they look good on their screen. Are you, in fact, making that claim?