do the permantly banned deserve a 2nd chance at 2nd life

A few months back I was talking with a woman who got permabanned while she was a couple of weeks old newbie. Some borkwit gave her a grey goo generating doohickey. She had no idea what it did.

She rezzed it and it spewed all over the sim. People reported her and she got banhammered first go.

It took her a long time (weeks, perhaps months if I recall) and much explanation to convince LL to let her back in.

I don't know why she didn't creat an alt. Maybe had established friends in that account and so forth.

Good point, Des. I'll change my answer to say that there should be an appeal avenue, especially for instabans, but that anybody trying to commit fraud or screw up SL should go away and not come back until they realize the error of their ways. If somebody just can't play nice with others, I don't want them around.

Seems to me that the problem is lack of transparency and apparent due process in the whole Governance process. Folks get suspended and even banned without warning for reasons they don't understand and that won't be explained to them nor to anyone else--nothing like habeas corpus here.

Granted, LL is a business, and they shouldn't assume the overhead of a full-fledged legal system or anything, but there are reasons for some of the steps in "due process." And it protects the integrity of the authority as much as it protects the accused.

By completely eschewing transparency, Governance is shrouded in suspicion.

Does anybody follow the police blotter (http://secondlife.com/support/incidentreport.php) closely enough to know whether permanent bans appear there? I seem to hear about a lot more of those than is reflected by that report, the few times I've looked at it.

So I have no answer to the OP's question because I have no way of judging what percentage of permabans are completely wrong.

There's a right of reply to AR's for the ARed.. But yes, I'd like to see a better system too also land owners get a bit more power over their bans so alts just can't come back and continue the grief.

This would go along way to lessening the fraudulent and wasted ARs if we had the power to be more in control of our own land and its bans.

they genrally dont unban anyone
they SUSPEND (temporarily block people's access)
they BAN (permantly block people's access)
they hash block (a lot like stepping in dog poo) caws attempting to log a restricted account gets the new ips and machines blocked too

spoofin your mach and ip address is easy, gettingaround a hash block not so easy but not impossible, the lab cant keep u offa the grid but they can make playin impossible hard and very unrewarding

three day suspension, lindens only call permanent blocking a ban, a g team memeber chuckled that most residents confuse thosetwoand that they (lindens ) like that, but whenim suspended now i getthe samething ip block, machine block, and when the suspensionends i have to call the 866 number and have the hsh blocks removed lol

never seen a permanent blocking a BAN in the blotter only suspensions

ok Jumpan Lane

I think there's an ambiguity in what "ban" means, and I disagree with your interpretation. I would say:

Can LL ban human beings from Second Life? Yes. All they have to do is tell you that you're no longer allowed to access SL servers in any way, and that doing so will be treated as illegal access to a computer system.
Can they enforce that ban perfectly through software? No
Can they enforce that ban through the legal system? Possibly, depending on jurisdiction, but it's so expensive that it would hardly ever be used.

There are cases where they do need to do a permaban with no prior warning. That would include instances of RL child pornography, DOS attacks, and possibly other blatantly illegal activities.

I have heard of people getting permabanned for lesser offenses with no prior warning. Since they are second hand, I don't know whether they're true, though there's at least one that I'm highly inclined to believe. When I say "lesser offenses", that includes things where I know other people who've received short suspensions for essentially the same offense.

LL should publish sentencing guidelines, as part of making the process transparent.

They should also have a straightforward, confidential appeal process that doesn't require phone calls or US business hours, at least not to start. The appeal process should be approached with a sense of leniency, particularly for people with little or no prior record and a commitment to staying clear of rules violations, even if they're technically guilty. For example, suppose that newbie who got banned for unintentional griefing goes to a friend's house for sexplay, not realizing that LL is starting the enforce the prohibition of all sex in PG areas. Guilty as charged, on paper a permaban might be justified, but clemency might be justified as well.

Well, as I see, the technical side is discussed long here, and yes, as I see it, LL bans even permanently without warning and in special issues even without listening to an appeal or give the chance.

First of all: those who decide about permabans are human beings and human beings make mistakes. Also, they judge without having qualified as judges. Any company does that, but a normal company might reconsider to allow a customer to return to their services after a time.

But my second point has not been discussed yet: How many of the crimes are punished with a permanent ban from RL? There ARE some crimes that you get a death sentece for (in some contries) or (in others) 20 years to lifelong imprisoning.

Compared to these crimes, is there really a crime against the LL company that deserves a lifelong ban? OK, I would say, there are some. Using SL for crimes of the group above. But most issues that you get a permaban for are NOT of that quality.

Also: people change, people learn, people become wiser. That is, why I always vote for a second chance. It must not be tomorrow, but I believe in the ability of people to learn from their mistakes.

Why should a young griefer, who at the age of 18 thought a little griefing would be fun not be allowed to return after a year or two? Why should a scripter, who did an endless loop (by incident) and filled a sim with objects not be allowed to return after a year and try to script more carefully?

I always vote for a second chance.
Cause I experienced that human beings are able to learn and to change.

And third:
Taken all together: if I really should get a permaban ... next year I have a new PC with a new router and network adapter, my ISP uses a new area of IP numbers and I changed my mail provider and even might have moved in RL.
So yes, there cannot be a permanent ban, they cannot ban me forever.

And those real bad guys who do fraud and betray others ... what changes in my life during next year is easy for them to get tomorrow.

Those who really deserve a permanent ban ... have the money to return tomorrow with their new PC using a new provider ... so what is it good for?

It'd be nice if there was a clear set of standards in how a ban or suspension could be dealt out.

For each one to be properly looked at and investigated, talked through etc would cost a heap in staff, but it's kind of an impotent service considering how much we all put into SL too.

Yeh for sure, some of them, but also a lot won't make it back, they don't all have that money or inclination, they just as easy can drift on to other things to rip off, grief or exploit.

I think the LL bans are pretty good really from what people have said.

well the banned tards we yap with all claim to sneak back and the Lindens we talked to all say ar them we remove them as if its a point of honor to them

They should have a second chance, in they have payment info on file or they are logged in often doing something else than increase traffic of a plot of land.

Hope also that LL will not allow alts to leave negative 1 star feedback on Xstreet in the future

You ruin my business with a bad feedback? >>> You need payment info on file

What ever happened to the corn field?

It worked well, so they got rid of it.

probably got too weedy.

i can send ya the corn the firld is gone u gottamake ur own

No.

Don;t you have to mess up pretty bad to get SL banned or even warned? Something serious like hacking the system, crashing sims, copybotting, or lieing about your age to look like you are over or under 18 when you are not?

If someone was getting banned cause they had a habit of making stupid comments or insulting someone's precious avatar, it would be one thing but people who mess up BIG have GOT to know they are treading thin ice?

If someone commits a serious offense a few times, then unfortunately, they don't need to be in SL. It is not about punishment, it is about ridding the game of something malicious.
And no, someone telling you that your noobie looks are bad is not "malicious"


I have heard that people can get into trouble for filing false AR's.
Most AR's probably go thru the cracks anyways, imagine people AR'ing over retarded stuff like petty insults. LL ain't gonna hve time for that....

jig i tend to agree

people DO NOT (or in the very recent past have not) gotten into ANY trouble for filing ars. yapped with the g team at office hours last year apparently wasnt even in the tos

Thanks Jumpman. I have been griefed by some really nasty people. SL have gotta watch their backs with some of these types.

Me 2

Pep (First evah me 2 post and it is agreeing with Jig and Jumpy; what is the world coming to?)

PS A chicken just flew past my window claiming the sky was falling.