Why does xstreet allow people to sell griefer weapons and tools???

I just went to x-street, and one of the "Featured Items" on the xstreet home page was a griefer weapon that distorts another avatar's shape beyond all recognition. The ten items in the set are all designed to trick the unexpecting victim into accepting a dialog, like a hug, that in fact will disrupt them. The same seller sells other gadgets like orbiters that have no rational use except as a griefer weapon.

WHY does Linden Lab allow griefer weapons to be sold on xstreet? Why can someone sell things there that are certain to get the user abuse reported and even banned if they ever use them? This makes no sense to me at all.

I played around with them with some friends at one time. We all had a good time screwing with each other, nobody was abused. (Well, not without wanting to be...)

In RL, I shoot rifles over at my friend's shooting range. I guess I could always be out shooting people, but that's not how I choose to use a rifle.

Maybe the guns analogy is a bit of a stretch, but I think it works.

Half-assed rationalizations aside, I'd say the real reason is because LL just doesn't want to invest the time into policing user content. Surely there are a lot of gray lines about what could be considered a griefer tool. Why, I imagine there are many seemingly benign products that could be used to grief people if that was the owner's intent. So, I don't really think it's easily enforceable. Just like LL doesn't get involved in user disputes (or monitor these forums) I think they have adopted a hands off approach in regard to policing this content.

Myself though... I don't think it is their place to dictate what is acceptable for people to sell in SL. Do you? It's sort of a slippery slope. I don't think most people would be crazy about being required to pass LL's "content inspection process".

-edited for typos-

Because...this is America? If they want to waste their lindens/money, who are we to say any different

I guess it depends on the cost of the items- but I would guess that someone whose sole purpose in SL were griefing, getting as many victims before having an account suspension, probably would not be spending a lot of money on the throwaway account, or giving payment info that could be used to prevent future alts from using the same credit card.

Scripted objects do not grief people. People do.

It's all fun and games until someone gets distorted.

In a world where the Copybot Spammer is still for sale, I have no expectations that any product no matter how malicious will ever be blocked by LL.

"griefing" is a funny animal. there's a blurry line between a practical joke, and griefing.

Let me make the following example. Gambling. Gambling is allegedly outlawed in Second Life. Yet there's always some noob pestering people in the sandbox to give them money, or help them find a casino. If I make a gambling machine that looks totally like a gambling machine, and invites people to pay it.. but is only scripted to function as a glorified tipjar.. is that griefing? It took your money and didn't let you play! Okay, what if it takes your money, then spits out a stern notice that gambling is illegal in Second Life, and then spits your money back at you? What if that gambling machine gives you a teddybear.. what if it cages you.. sucks you into a restrained-life enabled sex trap? What if that same gambling machine distorts your avatar and calls you a noob? What if it just makes you do a little dance?

I know the retailer you're talking about. He's a friend of mine, and I've worked with him on a number of his products. (I did the artwork for the much beloved (and sometimes hated) "XTremeTag", the hud that lets you put a picture over someone's head).. and for the wildly popular "EmotiK" which pops up little emoticons over your avatar when you include the corresponding codes in chat. =) <pop>

The fact is, that while orbiters aren't great.. it's all about application. In Havok 1, the orbiter (Ownage) allowed you to orbit yourself. (there was even a demo available on the vendor!) Honestly, being shoved a few hundred/thousand meters into the air and then left to freefall can be kind of entertaining, and people will actually PAY for this service who are into parachuting.

There are such things as "Combat zones" in SL. where weapons, even griefer weapons, have their applications. But even so, everyone loves a good practical joke.. so the question becomes, where does it cross the line?

It seems that the line is where someone gets upset. In this case, I'm guessing Ceera happened across one of JadSOFT's deformer items inworld.. each of these items has a sort of cartoonish item (the modeller of these is good friend as well).. one of the items in the pack is a "free sexxorz" whorehouse. Designed to lure the unsuspecting annoying "noob" to click, and get deformed. which.. big deal.. relog. (or don't, and walk around deformed for all to see... haha you fell for it).

LL has long refused to define the line between practical joke, and griefing. After all, how many of you complaining would happily snatch up a free "Camping Chair" that said "1L for 6723671 minutes".. and when someone sat on it, would tick down as if the sim would EVER be up for 11 years. That same practical joke impulse, is what drove the creation of those deformers. "free money click here"... etc.

The policing falls on the owner of the items.. just the same way that a cage gun can be used responsibly as part of a "game".. it can also be used to annoy people. Rez those items as a part of a "carnival fun house" build.. and it's suddenly not griefing. (heck, say to your friend, "OMG this is so funny, click this" and it's not griefing).

The fact is, that JadSoft sells quality products (OMG seriously, we spent like 2 months working on Emotik) It's the use that people put them to, that may, or may not, be "griefing".

For the record, Ownage, like all orbiters, was rendered useless when Havok4 came out. Jad, unable to find a reasonable substitute function, removed the product from sale, because he really does care about customer satisfaction. The replacement item, "Havok Wreaker" behaves radically differently, and frankly, you have relatively little to fear from it. Among the various Havok4 "orbiters" it's a decent one.. but really, under H4, orbiting is dead.

Jad's more recent projects (post H4) have been more focused on tools and games. The jStats tool, for example is an interesting offering.. that basically sits on your HUD, and will tell you how fast you type. (as in words per minute, yes). It keeps going, with a host of features that can be used to determine how often you use bad words (I beleive this is customizable, so you probably could set it to tell you how often you say "honestly"

XStreet allows this kind of item to be sold, because LL allows such an item to be created. There's no point in banning the creation of items "with the purpose of harassment" because every one of these can be used consensually. It's the item's use FOR harassment that LL will respond to.. and thankfully.

Because even a house can be used to grief someone, if you wear it and dance around.

The Lindens clearly know that there's a blurry line here... "Snowball Fight"

Because they earn 5%. That's why.

Ah, the good old days when peeps would wear houses on the platform at HIP.

Winter, I respect you tremendously as a content creator, and I will admit that you make a few good points. But I disagree completely when it comes to the opinion that any object or gadget that seems innocent and does something drasticly strange or harmful to a user *without their informed consent* is just a "Harmless Practical Joke".

What happened is precisely what I said. I went to the xstreet website, and saw that specific deformer item offered for sale, looked to see what precisely it was, in case my initial bad impression was misleading, and was appalled and shocked that it was even there, let alone a "featured item". My biggest complaint in the matter is that it takes effect without the informed consent of the victim. Same goes for that gadget that can place an image over someone else's head, without their consent.

Someone may think it is uprorously funny to take a bucket of water-soluable paint and dump it on a stranger at a swimming pool. After all, they only need to step into the showers and wash it off. But if someone did that to me in RL, it is questionable if they would survive my response, because I would NOT see it as in any way "funny". Especially not if my brand new Bikini and Sarong appeared to be irretrivably ruined.

A gadget that looks like a freebie box or seems to be offering an innocent hug, and which appears to DESTROY a person's appearance settings is, to me, as bad as someone dumping a bucket of house paint on someone in a fur coat. The coat is ruined. From what I could read, if you didn't know of the existance of the appropriate "undeformer", and were not "in on the joke", you could very well assume the avatar had been ruined beyond repair. How is the victim supposed to know to "just touch that purple ball over there and you'll be back to normal". Or "Just log off and back on again, and you'll be fine." Most won't have a clue, even if they have been in SL for years. They might well *delete* the entire avatar and clothing outfit from their inventory, thinking it was hopelessly damaged. Now wouldn't that be funny? Great joke, eh? If anything like that got sprung on me, that "joker" would get an AR slapped on them before I did anything else.

As for your "joke gambling machine" examples, if an object takes money under false pretenses, and gives nothing of value back, that is theft, plain and simple, no matter how you dress it up.

Every "snowball" or "Water Balloon" I have seen did absolutely no actual effect to the person who was hit. Just a "splat", maybe some particle effects, and you're fine. I've seen one consentula snowball fight system where IF you are wearing the "target" atachment, getting hit too many times freezes you in place. But it is 100% consentual. You have to choose to wear the target.

Guns, orbiters and cagers or similar weapons in a designated combat zone don't bother me, I stay far away from such places. Use one in a mall or other non-combat area on non-consenting targets, and you're just a griefer.

QFT

Because griefer tools/weapons aren't illegal, but griefing is.
Why can you buy guns when killing people is illegal? (in most countries anyway)
I do agree though they shouldn't be a featured item though..........

Griefing tool is a matter of perspective and will. A basic box can be a griefing tool if you're willing to rez enough of them to cause someone an inconvenience and/or harassment.

A few months ago I saw a featured item on either SLX ot OnRez that claimed to detect the location of any avatar on the grid. Only 3000L$ but it disappeared within a week or two. Someone must have been policing at the time.

April 1st, 2005 LL went around the greed sending people an animation request and when they accepted it animated them dead and you had to re-log.

I personally do not go for ANY sort of uninvited avatar manipulation. Put prims through my av body or distort me or do some sort of bloody gore animation to me and it is over for us.

Fun and games stop once you affect my avatar.

F.Y.I. Featured Items on XStreetSL are adverts where the "Featured" status has been paid for by the person listing the advert - they are not chosen by XStreetSL to be "Featured".

Yeah, it costs the seller L$899 a week, or L$2899 a month.

Yup - had some of my products under this for a while too.

I had a funny thought, looking at a skin using Advanced, Rendering, Attached Lights, check, uncheck...
We can turn off, ppls lights and particals, imagine if there was a uncheck for ppls scripts?

Scripts are run from the server, it would not be possible to do this.

They also sell item to guard you from griefer weapons.

So Linden Labs laughs their asses off. Because they receive cash from those who grief, and those who want to guard themselves from it.

win win for all the sales.

It's like the American government in a way.

sell weapons to one country, and some to the other, so they can shoot at each other.

God facepalms I bet. And Jesus committed suicide.... again.

Whaaaat's she gonna look like with a chimney on her head!?

yeah, but then you click click on the house, shouldn't be too difficult.
And mute.

All your problems are solved with the mute button. And those who always accept incoming requests are naive. Seriously. It's these people who also click on ads, because there's an OK button on it.

I love people that bring up gun owernship, ESPECIALLY in the US... and forget about silly things like waiting periods, permits, types allowed to be sold (yes I know the loopholes), and the fact that even here there are places it's illegal to have one (anyone actually live in Chicago?) never mind the fact that for every country that allows guns, two don't. never mind the fact that LL has limited what it damn well pleases (as is their right), whenever it makes life easier for them (or they just copy it or buy it out =X ).

and believe it or not, I'm a gun advocate.

personally I thought they'd have banned the sale (not the creation) long ago, just to save themselves a ton of effort. but they haven't so we're stuck with it.


this isn't nuclear proliferation, and LL has stated clearly that using such things on others "because they did it first", or even threatening to, is against TOS.