Bye Bye Traffic Bots/Camping

who was addressing Ramzi? who's quote is that?

Exactly how did you imagine "Revert to non-HTML search for Search / Places" would be understood? Nobody would interpret it as meaning the old layout but with the new results, because those words could have been easily enough. Now you're changing things. First you rejoice right here in this thread, when they say they are going back to the old results, and then you change your original intent, both in the Jira and here.

see above.

see above, plus you've succeeded in screwing up what so very many people want, just because you prefered to have things like a show on map button, and a one-click route. To answer your question, yes, I do think it's selfish.

So you think they had the idea, discussed it, and came to the conclusion all by themselves, and then just happened to notice that you'd written a Jira about it? Yeah, right.

What I do is business, and yes, business is sometimes selfish. What I've never done is gone out of my way to oppose something that people have been shouting for for a long long time (getting rid of bots), when it's right around the corner.

Your newer idea, which may indeed have been your original idea, is far better than what you actually wrote in the Jira. Sadly, because you didn't write that idea down, you've succeeded in screwing it up. You'll keep your non-HTML layout and features, plus you'll get an extra one - the choice of displaying on traffic or alphabetically. Great work!

Kitty's jira was a direct comparison between the old search and the new, and the old won hands down. Whatever Kitty may have intended, but failed to write, the jira was about reverting to the old search, and it got what it asked for - unfortunately.

It was prefaced by saying that she wasn't talking about the method of ranking.



So yes, I understood it as it was intended. Ramzi didn't, apparently, or there is more to the Linden story.

They got it wrong?

The preface said it was about usability, which it wasn't. Everything in the jira compared the old with the new, and the old won hands down. There is no way that LL, or anyone, would interpret that jira as meaning, "I want the new results, but presented better". No way in the world. Look at the very first thing that Kitty wrote about it (here) after the announcement in the jira.

It's clear which way she falls on the issue.

No, Phil, what she talked about was about the user interface or general reliability.



None of this has to do with traffic.

Strange about the dancing and hugging then.

I know the jira didn't mention traffic. As I said, it compared the old with the new and the old won hands down. It didn't need to mention traffic. To anyone who wasn't aware of what was not written, the jira means just one thing - the old search is far better than the new search.

Anyway, what's done is done. It's damned annoying, but I've said all I want to say on it.

A straight read of what was actually written is pretty clear that it was talking about the layout.

The problem is that the Search team screwed up and went back to status quo ante instead of making the investment to fix the viewer to provide easier use. They took the easy out instead of committing to using the GSA to provide results inside the confines of the old layout. That's not Kitty's fault, and I think you are too harsh on her.

Linden inability to comprehend is not something we can predict.

This underscores the truism to never underestimate the power of a stupid idea.

Put your preconceptions aside for just one second and read that JIRA again and look at the examples I gave.

What you're talking about: "if a resident wants to search for X, which search will yield the most relevant results for finding X". Nowhere did I even address which is more relevant, it simply does not matter.

What I'm talking about is *using* the search interface, I specifically stated that the results don't come into the picture at all when you're talking about how easy it is to use or accomplish a certain task in the different interfaces . *Nowhere* do I even talk about the results other than to point out that it's irrelevant.

Once again you didn't bother to read anything. I can't use the new search *at all*. I can't scroll, but I can't *click* links either. That's right there in the JIRA if you could actually stop frothing at the mouth and read what it says.

So am I happy that they bring back the old search for a bit? Yes, because I can actually use it. I'm stuck on RC 6 right now because I can't use search *at all* in RC8 which has the fix for invisible skirts and the out-of-control spinning when rotating a prim bug, both of which I'd absolutely love to have fixed.

What makes it even more insane is that I've done the same argument with you on the forums here about preferring the places layout, you even replied to it. I told Jeska at her office hour in January that I *like* how Search / Places works with two-pane navigation, I mentioned that a few times on the forums as well, in threads you participated in.

http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?p=1997602#post1997602
Look who posted right after I originally made the JIRA and who didn't give a peep about it at the time.

And in this very thread:
/327/71/260358/2.html#post1997806
I wonder why I'm dancing and hugging something I can actually use and where I prefer the layout of it...

---

And once again:
* I do think traffic is useful as a metric (whether it's used in search or not), but it needs to more immune to gaming
* I don't like the fact that the new search is gameable like the old one, it needs to be more immune to gaming

In addition:
* I think the web browser control hasn't proven itself to be the *only* option there is. It's been around for over a year now and it only worked flawlessly for me in 2 or 3 versions. That gives it a rather back track record in my opinion and I think search is essential enough to not rely on something that breaks this frequently, especially since those bugs don't count as showstoppers
* I like the navigation style of Search / Places and I like the fact that it's not based on HTML. GSA is perfectly capable of returning XML as far as I know and that can be used to populate the places tab, looking exactly the way it does now.

I've said all that I want to say, but I'll reply to this. I just read the jira again, from top to bottom, and without rushing it. Without any preconceptions, it tells me that the author much prefers the old search. It gives me a lengthy list of why the old search is better. If it intends that the new results are wanted rather than the old results, then it needs to say so, because without anything like that, it is clear that the author wants the old search with its results - whether that was the intention or not.

The old interface with the new results is such a significant idea, that it should definitely have been stated in the jira. It's too big a thing to omit, and expect to be understood.

yet you felt it necessary to title this thread " Bye Bye Traffic Bots/Camping" ?

if all you care about are rankings and search potential, why are you bothering to mention traffic in nearly every post you make?

Ramzi also closed three other JIRAs as duplicates of mine with the comment: "Thanks for reporting this... let's track this with the similar duplicate request VWR-7335 -- to return the old functionality of Search>Places. See that issue for an update."

Old functionality, not old results. He/she understood it just fine (just for clarification, those other JIRAs also referred to navigation and loss of "Show on Map", they weren't about "bring back traffic" either) and combined with his reiteration that they're committed to "transform more search functionality to the web-based interface " I don't see it as anything you're making it out to be.

(Just for the record, we can already sort alphabetically. You seem to think that's something they're adding, it's always been there already)

huh? What's wrong with classifieds?

And we have it now because people like you ruined the previous search engine by gaming traffic. In a previous post you talk about how "honest" business had to game traffic. How laughable that is - nothing honest about cheating at all - you might have convinced yourself of that Phil, but I don't buy it.

The new search is horrible with having to drill down in to each link (slowly) to discover its not what you thought it was going to be. Oh yes that is still the case in many respects - the items returned often are not that relevant.

With old search even if the first few pages of were not entirely relevant and even with traffic gaming, I could always skim quickly through the items, keeping an eye on the right hand side to see if the place that came up looked like the right place for the thing I was searching for. No more - now its just a line or so of mostly truncated text as a link. If traffic cheaters such as you Phil had not gamed it then the old search would have been even better than it was.

The new interface is truly horrible - I have stopped trying to use it as it is more productive to use the old tabs. Its even quicker to use SLX or OnRez because it is not hampered by having to come from LL's servers and because on SLX you can select a category and search within there.

When the new viewer becomes the release version I can see myself sticking only to SLX, OnRez and other off world search engines. Far as I can see in world search is dead and not worth my time fiddling with. If people won't use it then your ranking means squat and I am sure I am not alone in the way I feel about it.

I completely blame you and the people like you Phil and yet you come to the forums with your high handed self-righteous verbage. You have no right to tell people that they should just accept things the way they are because you say its good and fair when you are one of the biggest dishonest cheaters around.

Good post! Thats how i feel.
You can only use the tools that are provided by the game. Problem here, is that too many people choose to bury their heads in the sand pit, instead of being proactive!

I think there's plans for some landmark related changes that will lead to landmark bots.

Maybe then we can stop thinking about the search system for a while.

I haven't tried to sell you anything. You flatter yourself if you think I have. I try to deal with intelligent people, so don't worry about it - I won't be trying to sell you anything. You're perfectly safe.

I should go a play with your toys, if I were you. Trying to play with your brain is a bit too difficult for you, and nobody gives a shit about you anyway.

I've said all I want to say about it. I accept that you didn't intend the outcome, and that you mistakenly omitted to make it clear in the jira. I'm done with it. I'm not going to read the other stuff, and I've now abandoned any thoughts or desire for getting rid of bots. They are here to stay for the forseeable future, and I'll continue to make the most of them and get up some people's noses, as long as they are useful to me. I'm adopting the attitude of LL - not giving a damn about anyone else (except my customers).

A bit harsh, considering you already know how many people dispise manipulating and gaming things in the name of all-mighty business. Most people dispise corruption. Can you understand that simple reality?

What good is a brain if you have no conscience?

Change the store name to "Phil's Bot-Free, Low Prim Furniture." and shut up, k...thx.

Stop gaming and trying to game. Set an example. You are either part of the problem or part of the solution. If you can't do this job ethically, without using surreal lies from digiland, then find some other line of work and stop looking at SL as noob-fish in a barrel, even if they are.



Don't pretend you are caring about customers---you are just looking out for yourself and yourself only. Your very first interaction with a future customer is a lie of green blips.


You've been a SL grifter, Phil.

Then its a shame non of it has rubbed on on you isn't it? Insult me all you like, you're the one coming to the forums saying how good the new system is after you helped screw the last one - by your tone it is obvious I hit a nerve. I was talking figuratively about buying - not literally. Perhaps my words were too big or I was too subtle for you hmmm?

You don't know anything about my intelligence Phil, don't kid yourself you do. I don't think many give a crap about you either Phil, don't kid yourself that they do.

Your track record is impressive, cheating dishonest bot camper and resource stealing temp rezzer king. How impressive - not.

Perhaps for an encore you will help screw up some other part of SL too? If you knew what encore meant that is.

I don't need to know anything about you to know your level of intelligence. You display it here well enough. Can't you find any toys to play with?

As you so cleverly realised, I forced LL to buy the Google search system with its unwieldy interface, but you missed some other things for which I am responsible... I am the one who causes the asset server and database system to get bogged down, causing transaction failures, failed logins, etc. I am the one who forced LL to create little clouds when the asset server is under load. It is me who is responsible for the lag that most of you find. It is me who makes sim crossings difficult and TPs often fail. I am responsible for all of it. Do those things bother you? Do they affect your SL experisnce? Great! Because I don't give a damn. I'm alright, but you don't count, so you might as well learn to live with it. You won't change anything, because I won't change anything.

Btw, I've no desire for anyone to give a crap about me. If it bothered me, I'd stop causing all those things, but I don't give a damn.

LMAO!!! Have you taken a giant leap away from your senses? (Don't answer that - I already know the answer.) You think I'm going to walk away from a successful RL business just because you don't like it??? Grow up LOL.