Let's keep some perspective: everyone needs to optimize to some degree so they can be found for relevant search terms.
Being on page 1 or number 1 is not necessarily an indicator of quality and it certainly does not translate into sales all the time. We can't all be number one and we can't all be on page 1. There are things that will make a difference as to where you rank (such as the objects on the page), and LL could stand to revisit the amount of weight put on picks.
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Bye Bye Traffic Bots/Camping |
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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05-24-2008 15:01
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Affordable & beautiful apartments & homes starting at 150L/wk! Waterfront homes, 575L/wk & 300 prims!
House of Cristalle low prim prefabs: secondlife://Cristalle/111/60 http://cristalleproperties.info http://careeningcristalle.blogspot.com - Careening, A SL Sailing Blog |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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05-24-2008 15:06
Alright. C'est la Svie  Nothing is inevitable in SL. Remember, this is a world where the Lindens could, potentially, if they wanted, abolish the concepts of geography and identity, amongst other things. There is no la vie, there is only laissez-faire.  |
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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05-24-2008 15:14
And perish the thought that they should do anything to be found on the first page LOL Well that's where their 2nd & 3rd "alt"ads come in on the other pages _____________________
Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]
Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107) Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107) |
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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05-24-2008 15:15
hehe. A couple of days before the RC7 came along, I told someone that the forum has been very boring (for me) for weeks. I also said that I'm thinking of starting my own bots thread, just so I have something to get my teeth into. Then lo and behold, RC7 came along, and I had a good reason to start my own bots thread  Yes I have been a bit lax lately with my antibot threads, I'll try harder _____________________
Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]
Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107) Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107) |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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05-24-2008 15:20
Yes I have been a bit lax lately with my antibot threads, I'll try harder _____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/ |
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Davin Romano
jerk
Join date: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 384
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05-24-2008 15:28
Yes I have been a bit lax lately with my antibot threads, I'll try harder would I be considered a griefer if I gift my anti-bot tshirts to all the bots I find? |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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05-24-2008 15:35
The problem with this kind of thing is that it leads to the potential nightmare of businesses starting up which do NOTHING BUT optimise search rankings and then run malls, or even just teleport hubs, and charge for rent.
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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05-24-2008 16:05
*just thought of a way to put bots to use for the new search the way things are right now*
The benefit would dissapear a few days after you'd stop using the bots, but each bot could on average keep at least one link back alive, at best several per bot depending on how the timing plays out. There wouldn't be any upper limit on the amount of bots that can be used either (they'd be roaming around the grid across different sims), unlike the avatar sim limit that existed for traffic. |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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05-25-2008 04:43
I've just noticed something that I missed before. I've only been looking at the first pages of the results in the All tab and the Places tab. The Places tab definitely returns the appliance results but nowhere near as many as the All tab. E.g:-
For 'low prim furniture', the All tab returns "about 2660" results whereas the Places tab returns "about 929" results. Only the first 1000 are actually displayed, but something is different, and causing the Places tab to create a much smaller results set. (The "about" figure is stated that way because it's often not known for certain how many results there are in the index. What happens is that the system stops looking for results when a suitably sized results set is compiled, and then it does a calculation - if we got this many from looking at so many, then on average we will get that many from the entire index. That's why the "about" word is used. When it returns less than 1000 results, the figure is exact. When it is over 1000 results, the figure is a calculated estimate and always ends in 0.) In this case, there are exactly 929 results in the entire index for 'low prim furniture' when searched in the Places tab, but there are a lot more when searched in the All tab. So what could they be doing differently for the Places tab search? I haven't compared results pages, except the first pages, and it may be possible to figure out what's different by doing that, but it's a daunting task. _____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/ |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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05-28-2008 06:31
*does a little dance and hugs the old useful Search / Places*
Yesh!  http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7335 Thanks for reporting this and the detailed comparison, Kitty. We have discussed options internally and believe we should iterate on the Release Candidate by taking your suggestion in this version, 1.20. Although we introduced Search>Places as a web-based search as of 1.20 RC7, we will return it to the previous state (with "Sort by alphabetical" or "Sort by traffic" options). Look for this change in RC9 or RC10. The Search project does aim to transform more search functionality to the web-based interface (like the "All" tab). This included the switch from "Popular Places" to "Showcase" (as earlier pre-announced at http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/28/second-life-showcase-popular-places-and-the-future-of-traffic/ The Search project team continues to discuss the future of the traffic metric with the Resident community (and is planning to provide better metrics to Landowners etc); however in the meantime Search>Places should remain similar as before, with traffic sorting that Residents are accustomed to. |
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Vittorio Beerbaum
Sexy.Builder Hot.Scripter
Join date: 16 May 2007
Posts: 516
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05-28-2008 07:35
It must be something else, because if it was only about the usability they should have eliminated the traffic sorting (and the number at all), leaving just the name sorting.
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 Beerbaum Music Department http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beerbaum/127/131/23 http://www.vittoriobeerbaum.com |
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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05-28-2008 07:41
*does a little dance and hugs the old useful Search / Places* Yesh! http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7335 Thanks for reporting this and the detailed comparison, Kitty. We have discussed options internally and believe we should iterate on the Release Candidate by taking your suggestion in this version, 1.20. Although we introduced Search>Places as a web-based search as of 1.20 RC7, we will return it to the previous state (with "Sort by alphabetical" or "Sort by traffic" options). Look for this change in RC9 or RC10. The Search project does aim to transform more search functionality to the web-based interface (like the "All" tab). This included the switch from "Popular Places" to "Showcase" (as earlier pre-announced at http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/28/second-life-showcase-popular-places-and-the-future-of-traffic/ The Search project team continues to discuss the future of the traffic metric with the Resident community (and is planning to provide better metrics to Landowners etc); however in the meantime Search>Places should remain similar as before, with traffic sorting that Residents are accustomed to. (Just for the record, I hate traffic, but I hate the buggy and broken usuability of new Places even more. If they fix the usuability of the new search to be like the old one, that's perfectly fine) so traffic count is resumed, and we can be assured that camping will continue as well. _____________________
it was fun while it lasted.
http://2lf.informe.com/ |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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05-28-2008 07:46
It must be something else, because if it was only about the usability they should have eliminated the traffic sorting (and the number at all), leaving just the name sorting. The new search can produce better results and still have worse usuability than the old one when trying to accomplish something (ie Show on Map). One aspect doesn't really reflect on the other. |
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Vittorio Beerbaum
Sexy.Builder Hot.Scripter
Join date: 16 May 2007
Posts: 516
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05-28-2008 08:40
The new search can produce better results and still have worse usuability than the old one when trying to accomplish something (ie Show on Map). In fact, i mean, the traffic is not needed at all... but has been resumed. _____________________
Beerbaum Music Department http://slurl.com/secondlife/Beerbaum/127/131/23 http://www.vittoriobeerbaum.com |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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05-28-2008 08:54
If they fix the usuability of the new search to be like the old one, that's perfectly fine) _____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/ |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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05-28-2008 09:31
I've just added a comment to Kitty's Jira:- http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7335
Ramzi. You have fallen for false arguments. What Kitty wrote has nothing to do with usability. Usability is not about getting from A to B in the fewest number of clicks, or anything like that. It is about how easy and intuitive a system is to use, and the new search is both of those. It is made even more so because it is a closed userbase, where nobody has to scan around an unfamiliar website, for instance, looking for what to do next, because everyone knows exactly how to use the new search. It is simple to use and does not fall foul of any usability considerations. In that respect, you have been conned. Apparently, the new search is broken for a few people; i.e. it won't scroll. This is the *only* point that Kitty raised that has any merit at all, and it does need to be fixed urgently - even by making the window resizable. But that is not specific to the Places tab. The Places tab needs to be either changed to the new search, according to the plan, or removed altogether. You have no doubt noticed the continual outcry from the residents about getting rid of traffic bots and traffic camping. The Places (traffic) search is totally gamed by the bots, and is useless as a search system. It benefits only those who, like me (yes, me), use traffic bots and similar, and totally fails regular SL residents. You were finally doing the right thing for the population, by changing it to the *much* better search system. DON'T allow the false arguments of one resident, plus the votes of a few friends, to cause you to do the wrong thing for the population. For every point that Kitty made (except the non-scrolling that affects a few people), there is one overwhelming answer:- "The quality of results is light years ahead of anything else, and it's easy to use!" You've changed your mind once - please change it again to the right way. _____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/ |
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3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
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05-28-2008 10:02
camping pays my tier and membership. i'd like to see it stay.
i suspect that's the true bottom line for Kitty as well, but that's just a guess. _____________________
it was fun while it lasted.
http://2lf.informe.com/ |
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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05-28-2008 11:03
(Just for the record, I hate traffic, but I hate the buggy and broken usuability of new Places even more. If they fix the usuability of the new search to be like the old one, that's perfectly fine) To make it worse, you falsely dressed it up as a usability issue. If you know anything usability at all, you'd have been lying through your teeth, but I'll assume you know nothing about it, and that you made an honest mistake. _____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/ |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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05-28-2008 12:00
I can't believe that anyone who tried to get the old traffic search back, and succeeded, could actually write that. The only reason for using the labels "old search" and "new search" is because I wouldn't know what else to call it. That JIRA is solely about how the results are presented, not where they come from. If they parse the HTML results and display them using the same layout as Search / Places then that's fine, the *only* thing I object to in that JIRA is the presentation layer of Search / Places and nothing else. Leaving the non-scrolling for a few people out of it, you hate the traffic-based results, but you wanted them back because the system with the superior results requires you to do an extra click to reach a place, and it doesn't do a show on map for you. How bloody selfish is that! You're making it sound like they accepted it just because I suggested it which is plain ridiculous  . Someone proposes something, they either see value in it or they don't.And selfishness from someone who uses an exploit to rank higher in search rather than do the responsible thing and report it... irony doesn't even come close. |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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05-28-2008 12:17
camping pays my tier and membership. i'd like to see it stay. i suspect that's the true bottom line for Kitty as well, but that's just a guess. --- I would love to know where people see me ask to get traffic back in that JIRA, I never said that or even hinted at it. |
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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05-28-2008 12:46
Kitty's jira is about layout, not ranking. And in large part I agree with her. I just don't want them to get hung up and keep traffic around. This is problematic, however, for clubs and social places.
_____________________
Affordable & beautiful apartments & homes starting at 150L/wk! Waterfront homes, 575L/wk & 300 prims!
House of Cristalle low prim prefabs: secondlife://Cristalle/111/60 http://cristalleproperties.info http://careeningcristalle.blogspot.com - Careening, A SL Sailing Blog |
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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05-28-2008 12:47
Nowhere in that JIRA do I mention anything about traffic, or returning the results from the old search vs the new search, *nowhere*. But to be honest, I haven't used any of the old Search tabs other than Land Sales for weeks. I so much prefer the context returned by the new All search, *especially* for places, even if what I'm looking for isn't right at the top (which, somehow for me, it almost always is). On the other hand, the window scrolls fine on all three of the machines I use for SL, so I can only imagine how frustrating it must be when it doesn't. It would be wrong to turn the jira comments into a debate forum but I gotta say, those comments are among the most bizarre strings of text ever penned in this tongue. And the one most filled with twisty little passages is by S/he Who Must Not Be Named here, so... I'll be good.  _____________________
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Avion Raymaker
Palacio del Emperador!
Join date: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 980
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05-28-2008 13:25
I totally agreed with Kitty's JIRA proposal until I read Ramzi Linden's solution to it. Is this a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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05-28-2008 13:32
I totally agreed with Kitty's JIRA proposal until I read Ramzi Linden's solution to it. Is this a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater? It is a case of grossly misunderstanding the request. _____________________
Affordable & beautiful apartments & homes starting at 150L/wk! Waterfront homes, 575L/wk & 300 prims!
House of Cristalle low prim prefabs: secondlife://Cristalle/111/60 http://cristalleproperties.info http://careeningcristalle.blogspot.com - Careening, A SL Sailing Blog |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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05-28-2008 13:46
I totally agreed with Kitty's JIRA proposal until I read Ramzi's solution to it. Is this a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater? Ramzi- could you clarify on how you see things moving forward? I think that might settle a whole lot of guessing/unease . If all you meant was: "We do see some problems with the new layout compared to the old layout for Search / Places as well (not necessarilly the ones you see, or in the same way) and we decided to - temporarily - revert back the old way while we work out a way to present the new search results in a way that is more consistent with the old layout" then the decision to revert back completely (traffic & all) would really make a whole lot more sense. |