Ginko Has Not Allowed Withdraws For Over A Day Now...

Horsepucky.

Blind trust in your ability to secure a return on investment (clearly of which there is much, based on some comments ehre) is not the same as being complicit to fraud. As you have only recently disclosed how much (or should I say, how little) of your assets are inworld and are known to be able to secure such a return, only now is there more concrete evidence that this is a flap that strongly resembles a ponzi scheme. Anyone investing NOW would be willfully ignorant or complicit in fraud, as opposed to simply ignorant.

Those whose lose their blind faith have the right to demand their money back, to avoid losing their money to the fraud (perceived or not).

That is where your logic fails, and quite miserably, too. First, no one would knowingly enter into a Ponzi scheme as an investor, unless they a) wanted to throw away money, or b) would be the first in line for their interest payouts and to withdraw the principal as well, making them a co-conspirator. Second, finding out that an investment, indeed, was a Ponzi scheme after the fact, and then requesting the initial investment amount be returned, regardless, does NOT paint the requestor as part of the scheme. The investor isn't asking you to commit further fraud to repay the money; that part is up to you; as far as I would be concerned, it can come as skin straight off your arse.



Maybe. Maybe not. There's not enough transparency for everyone to know for sure. Ponzi certainly went to great lengths to allay all fears about his scheme at the time it was operating full tilt, right up until the end.



As far as I know, your agreement is one of those activity-enforced ones. IE, something along the lines of "by opening an account and depositing funds within it, you indicate full acceptance of the depositor agreement". That would make the "in practice, it's a gift" part invalid, unless you don't have that kind of agreement, and taking someone's money as a gift as a matter of "practice", with absolutely no obligation to return if they indicated non-acceptance after depositing, would be rather low. But, there's no regulation, there's no RL consequence to bind or oblige you, so it would not come as a huge shock.



Yeah, but that inconsistency is a phantom of an illogical precession. I wouldn't care what you did; if you would continue to commit fraud to honor your obligations, that would be SOLELY on YOUR head; you had the choice to find legitimate sources of funding to repay me (and others).

The problem is that there just is no regulation or oversight of your operation. I don't know you from Adam's House Cat. Without someone I know and can trust standing over you, making sure you're not cheating or committing fraud, there's no way I would ever feel comfortable putting my money into such a service.

Of course it's not. I never claimed it was.

Since he dont want to tell anyone, It really makes you wonder how much of those Non In-World investments are ..

.. his Real Life House
.. his Real Life Car
.. his Real Life VIP membership at the local Nudie Bar.

Just sayin.

This is what i was calling it however at present my sales dont seem to reflect it inside SL. ON the other hand this is about ginko's promises (err although actually i don't remember seeing many tos of any measure when I used ginko to see how it all worked wayy back now almost a year ago ) of high interest and truly the tos i saw when I used ginko was that there were no real withdrawal limits. There was a lottory etc and I have no idea when these other tos were implemented but in all honesty if a bank is holding onto money in this way and not at least releasing the principle deposit there is a problem beyond the great depression of SL. I see no reason for him to release the interest but from what i read I see a reason for him to release the principle on the money put into the bank. I know when a bank limits transactions there are serious issues lol and usually the government steps in and starts looking at books. In this case however we have no goverment to look at any books. We have no way of bankruptcy protection none of this exists in SL. The only way ginko or any bank can survive is to work with the community. I dont see this happening here (right now anyhow hehe) . I too dont believe its ponzi the interest rates make some sense because of the way SL works but at the same time something strange has happened and the guy is working on the premise that he has not as of this moment committed a crime so I dont at this point totally blame this on "the great depression of SL" cause I dont know about anyone else but I would be handling it a bit differently, but that's just me.

It's possible that the logic I used to come to the conclusion that I came regarding those who believe GF is a ponzi indirectly commiting fraud by demanding their money back was flawed. As I do not regard the issue as of great importance, I won't bother analysing it further.

Well, actually, you did; hence:



If I invested in your "bank", and have come to the belief that you are running a Ponzi scheme, it IS NOT "committing fraud" to ask for my money back. Victims are entitled to compensation. Everyone who invested in the scheme without prior knowledge that it was a Ponzi scheme at the time of investment are VICTIMS.

I think you have a problem with your wording of your messages. There's a HUGE difference between "knowingly" and "willingly". One implies foreknowlege-cum-co-conspiracy; the other does not.

That is unfortunate.

When it comes to financial matters relating to managing other people's money, your words can inspire great confidence as well as great fear. As such, you should always treat all concerns like these, including ones which indeed may be unfounded, as issues of great importance, and take EXCEPTIONAL care of what you say about them publicly.

To do otherwise can paint your efforts with the brush of mediocrity and lack of concern which, as you should well know by now, can be the kiss of death for financial institutions.

Should be the kiss of death, but for the greed and ignorance of the user base.

From a Cynical Standpoint:

Reguardless of whether Ginko is a Ponzi or not , Id hardly expect the Owner to admit it.

Brazil has signed 2 extradition treaties with the United States.

Im certain on the off chance the Feds agree its a Ponzi and decides its worth wanting to know where the over $500,000 US is ...

He doesnt want to go to Federal Prison.

Its a long shot the Feds would pursue it.

But not enough of a longshot a Ponzi runner would make their case for them.

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Im not sure whether its that or its just a case of a "Bank" Owner who doesnt want people to know RL investment choices he made (maybe becuase they would sound bad on the surface?)

And he had a run of bad luck with the WSE and "Theif hacker" and all.

Well Nicholas if you are still around you have not answered any of my posts either here or on the Ginko web site. So allow me to precisely sum up some issues and concerns

1) You are now holding nearly $750,000 US dollars at the Linden dollar average exchange rate. I accept you have produced a balance sheet detailing your Second Life investments, are you prepared to outline your external investments thus enabling folks to take a view on Ginko's solvency. At the very least this information would enable people to "price the risk" on your bonds.

(Please spare us all the argument about Linden Dollars not being a currency. You and I both know and understand what "Fungible value" means)

Nicholas Portocarrero]I am considering it, but at this time the short answer is "No."



2) In my earlier post I outlined the public domain information relating to Ginko's share holding position in the WSE standing at about 35%.In the real life UK stock markets (unless a special waiver is agreed) any shareholder of a PLC owning more than 30% is usually obliged to mount a take over bid. Is it your intention to mount a hostile take over, and/or negotiate a transfer of control in terms of management of the WSE from Luke to you.

Nicholas Portocarrero I see no reason to replace Luke as Hope Capital's manager


3) As an alternative to (1), and taking into account the fact you may have confidentially agreements with your external first life Ginko investments, are you prepared to produce a full set of Ginko accounts and pass them to a registered accountant (based in the US or Europe (EU)) the accountant then expressing a view as to Ginko's ongoing viability in terms of assets vis-à-vis liabilities to account holders.

Nicholas Portocarrero Same as 1.



4) In the past Linden Labs have supported your business via comments in the media, in particular I note Gov Linden has expressed supportive views. Do you still enjoy Linden Labs full support.

Nicholas Portocarrero I have no idea, but I doubt it.


5) Are you entirely satisfied your business is legal in the strict sense of not being involved in terrorism, drugs, under age sex, or money laundering

Nicholas Portocarrero Yes. As far as I am aware, we are not at all involved in such activities, be it directly or indirectly, or any other of the sort


If I see some satisfactory answers to these questions posted by you on this BB I will personally consider making a large deposit in Ginko to aid short-term liquidity. I am sure other people may also consider that too


My views.

I am content with your answer to question 5, that means all else becomes a commercial risk

I accept your position on question 2. In SL stock markets evolve. Maybe at some point the WSE need to review the issue of large shareholdings but that is another subject not for this post or thread

I believe you should review your position with Linden Labs re question 4 even though it may only be giving them an outline brief of your issues. However in fairness I can pick up the phone myself so your answer there is not a show stopper, unless you have reason to belive Linden would bar you thus disenfranchising all Ginko account holders

To resolve your issues I believe you need to review your position re question (1) or (3) Even if the conclusions are that Ginko is a multi level marketing device designed to use “paper” (Linden currency) to leverage a real economic advantage expressed in first life currency, you hint at this obliquely in an earlier post on this thread

Thank you for elucidating that, Nicholas.

If this doesn't make you want to vomit, I don't know what will.

Have you considered, Nicholas, that a little transparency might go a long way toward the success of your venture?

Example: I own Motorola stock. I buy Motorola phones partly to ensure the success of the company and partly because I prefer their phones.

Ginko, as a fund/bank, could stand disclosing the outworld assets so that the investors could have the opportunity to support their investment. 750k is not chump change, and your "trust me of go f*ck yourself" attitude only inspires fear, not confidence, in your abilities to return the money as it is, let alone the interest. Give investors the opportunity to see what they are investing in, and support their investments.

first off slander

http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?typed=Slander&type=1

the actual word your looking for is Libel

http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?selected=1153&bold=||||

In the US its not a crime to lible or slander another individual since their is restitution through Civil processes.

Part of the problem is you have to show actual damages, wich means you have to literaly open all your books and prove In open court (which means that Ironicaly you end up handing over your financial records to the defendant) that you actualy took a showable loss after said statment because oddly enough the courts here do actualy recognize the concept of Bad publicity being good publicity. (because all to often its true in the US)

In fact their are actual consumer fraud shows here in the US that take advantage of that by Blatantly attacking the charater of people they suspect of being involved in shady buisness because some of them actualy are stupid enough to sue them for Libel.

Once.

dude, lets face it. Some of them are hopeing you do sue them for libel FOR EXACTLY THAT REASON.

I thought about this a little bit ..

*Ginko is this "bank" fund people Invest in it.

*WSE is this "Stock exchange" people invest in it.

*Ginko is heavily invested in WSE and WSE is involved with Gambling.

*Linden Labs Bans gambling.

----All of a sudden within a week the following happens----

*A hacker guy working for WSE comes along and steals a ton of money.

*This same hacker guy wins the Ginko Lottery.

*Hacker guy runs off.

*A lot of people ask Ginko where the money is

*Ginko tries to acquire AVIX (that just happens to be cash rich)

All these things are just one big coincidence.

Uh huh.



---------------------------------------------

What are the chances "Hacker Guy" was just the cover to explain away a huge amount of money that didnt really exist?

Or that was lost becuase it was gambling venue related?

Nicholas -

I wrote about being even handed about the situation, and I'm not seeing one important thing in the response that brought me here from the comment to my post (http://www.your2ndplace.com/node/326 ).

What is that? Humility. Some humility in these situations is necessary. Ginko's in a bad position because poor decisions were made - what those decisions were is not readily apparent. Perhaps the WSE idiocy compounded it. No one knows but you, Nicholas. You're the man running the show. You're the man with what you have *admitted* is other people's money.

In short, Nicholas, you screwed up. That you are here is good. That is the ONLY beacon of light in this mess. You started off with a dream, I don't know what it was - but when I interviewed you on KnowProSE.com you demonstrated your knowledge of things by pointing out the faults of Grameen Bank. No one is saying that you're stupid. Some are saying that you're dishonest, but your actions show that you're trying.

Humility, unfortunately, cannot be taught in a textbook or read in a magazine. It is an important part of life, and it is an important part of growing as a human being. You'd get a lot more mileage out of saying, "Look, I really screwed up and the money is there - but tied up" and continued trying to repay people, you'd still have to deal with people who are angry. But if you did that, your position would be defensible. This position you find yourself in is not of anyone's making but your own. You loved the positive attention when Reuters interviewed you, I'm certain of it. Well, with the good comes the bad.

Man up.

Telling people that they will get money back at your discretion is tongue-in-cheek *theft*. I urge you to reconsider your wording - and also not to post when you are angry. Get it together. If you're going to pull through this, you will do so by being honest, straightforward, and most importantly - accountable. And being those things will mean being humble in this situation... but if you pass through this, that humility will save your project as well as your reputation. And that reputation is what should give you pride, not the ability to debate and argue on forums with angry people.

Now you can tell me where to go, say whatever you wish - but I, for one, will not do so until I do have my money. I will write about it. I will talk about it. I have a right to do so and I will USE that right. I will try to be fair - but to be fair, to not make your situation worse than it is - read what I wrote above very carefully, consider it, and think before you speak/write out of frustration. You do more damage with false pride than you would with honest accountability.

This is not going away until you make it go away. How you choose to do that demonstrates character. Character builds reputation. Reputation, at the end of the day, is all you have. Well, and our money too.

alright first off do yourself a favor and shut up, and hire a Lawyer who deals in US Law.

Second realise that your saying that as soon as someone suspects a fraud they should shut up because they are engaged in fraud, and bascialy stated that you feel entitled to keep their funds as soon as they do.

Congradulations Not only have you just met simultaniously 2 of the many tests (any ONE of which proves you have created a contract by Adhesion) which means that they can take your statments to court and guess what, the the courts are bascialy required to rule that any contract you have with them is defacto null and void.

You have also simulatniousy met the definition of Extortion.

The fact is that as soon as someone thinks they have been defrauded, (which ironicaly you have just flat out proven to my satisfaction is Exactly what your operation is by the way) they have the right to legal recource. at this point I would advise people to contact their local athorities and see what they think. unfortunatly for some of them most will not bother and simply point them to small claimes. unfortunatly for you theirs a few Prosecutors and Lawyers out their who are interested in brining a case like this to court if only to show that "they" are takeing the lead in putting an end to the "Wild west" in the internet, or to put up a "trial case" in order to try to better define whats what when it comes to the internet.

The fact is they can state that they put the money in your "Bank" in good faith, but determined to their satisfaction at a later date that it was either a bad investment or a scam and tried to take out their money. The reality is that if it is a ponzi scam you are not entitled to keep the money. Period.

Its obviously Exactly what you said.

Actually the WSE has never been directly involved with gambling themselves apart from having companies which are listed on their exchange.
The guy who hacked the machine has actually posted in the SLexchange forums how he did it.

This thread became a whole lot more interesting since i went to bed last night and is possibly the best thread weve had yet.

Nicholas, do you realise the amount of interest you have to pay each day is $750US (0.1% of 750000US), that is over $5000 a week.


Also people, im now opening my own bank, deposit 1000000 lindens with me, theres no guarantee i pay it back in any timely manner in fact you'll have to wait until 2999, LOL.
(hope everyone realises this is a joke commenting on his rule that they under no obligation to pay your money back in a timely manner and therefore could keep it forever)
Depositr: "can i get my money back mr banker?"
Banker: "have you read our rules, we have no obligation to pay you until we have the funds availble"
Depositor: "so when do you expect to have the funds available?"
Banker: "cant say, could be 2999 at this rate"

I have no intention of suing anybody. I was merely pointing out that to falsely accuse someone of a -crime- is wrong. In case you missed that, the keyword here is "crime". There isn't even any need to look at my financial records to determine if the claim is true or false, because no matter what the records show, I have not commited any crime. Even if the records were to show I used the money to buy a luxury car and hire dozens of hookers for a party, which in case it needs to be pointed out, I have not done.

The american legal code, by outlawing perjury, recognizes the evil in making such false criminal accusations. While I am not a lawyer with detailed understanding of both codes, I believe the brazilian legal code goes farther in this regard. This is unimportant however, as the key to what I said is not that you will be punished by any government, but that you are commiting a criminal act, in the universal sense of the word "criminal".

Translation: "You, the customer, are a sucker."

I'll agree with Broccoli Curry... credibility lost and so too a potential customer. Nic.. do yourself a favor and hire a PR person and listen to them. Also hire a person to handle customer service for you too and let them do their job.

By not releasing the information that possible and existing investors are asking for, you appear to be hiding something, whether you are or not. And because of this attitude of 'I am under NO obligation.." people will become 'under no obligation to pay YOU.' Yes, people are paying you to invest their money wisely and to do deposits (funny, you don't mind the obligation to process deposits) and withdraws in a 'timely manner.'

I can understand asking for patience but if you want to foster the trust of your investors and customers, give them the hard facts. It would prove that you aren't running a 'scheme' and are in fact willing to stand by the bank AND it's investors.

(Sorry, about the translation if it's not what you meant to say, but that's exactly how it came off sounding to me.)

If you wish to view things like that, that is fine. It is however, what every accountholder, large and small, accepted. It is therefore the standard by which things must be judged.

You are right. It is. And you are, right now, committing a crime.

You are, at this very moment, transparently paying previous depositors with funds from new depositors. You are promising these new depositors that their money will be invested and that they will receive between .05% daily and .25% daily interest in return for giving you their money, but you are not investing this money, instead you are giving it to previous depositors to pay their claims against you.

That is not speculation, it is a fact.

http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/07/31/ginko-buying-avix/#comment-3924

Doing what are doing right now is a crime. The name of that crime is fraud. Doing it using interstate communications makes it "wire fraud" and that carries enhanced criminal penalties.

http://www.fraudaid.com/Dictionary-of-Financial-Scam-Terms/wire_fraud.htm

This is not opinion, it is an inescapable fact, and it is based on transactions that can be observed, by anyone, right now using data supplied at your ATMs and on your web site.

People who have been hurt by this can file complaints here:

http://www.ic3.gov/crimeschemes.aspx#item-15

I would suggest people who have complaints here also file an abuse report with Linden Lab because Linden Lab has taken action against people committing fraud before (e.g. false land sales). I suspect they will not in this case, but if enough people make it very clear exactly what the nature of the fraud that being committed is -- point them to this post, I have made it very clear -- and this fraud is ended, you will at least prevent other people from becoming victims.

By this young man's own admission, he has been taking $1000-$2000 a month out of this account for his own, personal, use and paying his employees another $1000-$2000 a month. That comes to close to $100,000.

He is not a victim of an overzealous press. He is running an illegal fraudulent enterprise -- right now, at this very minute.

I've spent a lot of time at the ATMs the last few days watching and talking to people, and I feel for you if you have money in this. If you are a victim here, I hope that you realize this is one bad apple, and do not leave Second Life over this, even if you have lost your Second Life savings to this scam. A lot of people fall victims to scams even in real life, and a lot of people have to come back from real life financial ruin more devastating than this. I hope that you scripters, builders and entertainers -- who have added so much to the world and had your profits taken away by this person -- do not leave just because of it. Too many of you have said that you've lost everything for me to not be incredibly worried that we will lose your talents just as you've lost your money.

You are what makes Second Life good. He is what makes it bad. Do not let him win by leaving all the good just because he has taken your money. We need you here.

Are you being malicious, or simply stupid? What you are reffering to is not in any way, shape, or form, a crime. To claim it is shows you either have no clue as to what you talking about, or that you have a malicious agenda. Which one is it?

Thank you for posting your contract here on the forums so I could consider fully my own responsibilities to my company. It would reflect poorly on me and my own fledgling store to invest in your bank or company or possibly consider signing a contract like that, because it sounds like it favors you very heavily and gives no recourse for the customer/account holder in the case of something like this.

Good luck to you.. but I won't be doing business with you.