Ginko Has Not Allowed Withdraws For Over A Day Now...

We need a popcorn smiley...

Unfortunatly thats anual growth in ALL virtual worlds, part of which is a function in that theirs more and more Virtual worlds out their to chose from and more and more people playing them, and part of which is the nature of most Game based MMOs that personal wealth is one of thoes games way of "keeping score"

unfortunatly in this case you have to deal with what is happening in SL. Second life internaly does not lend itself to things like inflation. For one thing the game seems to take real cash out of the economy almost as fast as its put, and for another their is literaly nothing in SL keeping a person from simply creating whatever it is they want, or getting a resonable substiution Item for free, and franly unless your dream is to create a constaly growing empire of Islands and continental real estate after a point their is no real need for more L$ unless you like to gamble. . .oh right you cant do that here anymore!

Basicaly what I see happening is a ~10% growth in User hours Vs a 7 % growth in L$ for a net Shrinkage of 3%, combined with evidence that User hours growth along with new subscriber growth has aparently slowed down. In other words take what happens inevitably to any game, (a population peak or plateau)

Now combine the posiblity that Second lifes population growth may very well have peaked with the fact that after a point (where you have your lot + some income to cover the occasional "I need to update this palce" income) most people eventualy will get to the point where your stipend is probably more than enoghe for your day to day expenditures,
with Linden Labs Stated goal of increasing land due to the current high price of land, and you see the real issue I have right now with any investment in SL

solution to camping pads

place a ginko ATM




sry, couldn`t resist

but they did pay them. as i stated in my previous posts, i have had no problem with Ginko. and i look upon this as a momentary setback. what is truly puzzling to me is that those who are very anti ginko, and have no vested interest in it, are the main ones inciting an unnecessary panic.

as i have also stated, if you do not like the way he runs things, dont deal with him. that also means you have no right whatsoever to criticise how he, or anyone for that matter, does business if you dont do business with him. ad please remember, this is a VIRTUAL world. stop applying real world rules to a virtual economy.

Yes, Nicholas, it is a crime. A defendant who says "but I really, really didn't mean to steal the money" can still be convicted. All that would have to happen is a jury would have to find that you know what you're doing. You'll say you don't, and the prosecutor will put up all sorts of evidence that you do. They'll show how you know, right now, that money from Depositor B is being used to pay Depositor A. The prosecutor will show how you took thousands and thousands of dollars out and spent it on yourself. No one will believe it when you say you didn't really mean to take the money.

If your point is that it would depend on a jury's decision, and that you're not "guilty" yet, that's true. But I know where my money would be on the outcome of that jury's deliberation, given the facts here.

If the Ginko people are based in Brazil, they may in fact be able to get those high returns legally. Further, they may not realize that in more stable mature markets it is not usual to be able to get such returns legally.

I live in an Asian country where it is quite possible (even easy) to get rates of return that are simply unavailable to me when I'm in the States. A couple of examples: (1) In marketplaces here, "5-6" is the most popular and well-known way people finance their buying and selling. It is defined as borrowing 5 units of currency in the morning and paying back 6 at the end of the day. That works out to 20% interest per day. (2) Rather than borrow commercially or float bonds (the bank cuts can be quite healthy and draconian), it is common for businesses needing cash to borrow short-term directly from consumers. When I've invested money in this sort of activity, the minimum was something equivalent to about USD$4,000. What would happen is I would pay the money, and in return I would get a check dated 30 days later for 16% more than I paid. 16% interest per month.

In places like the USA the markets have made the flow of money from those with extra to those who need it so efficient that the interest rates have become depressed; in many parts of the world it is still difficult to cheaply borrow money.

I introduce these examples merely to suggest that just because it is not customary in one's experience to have access to high returns on investments does not mean everyone else experiences the same things. In light of Ginko's reluctance to disclose their investments, of course, I can't suggest that they are actually making these sorts of investments.

I can't help but adore the irony that SL gambling which hurt no one I'm aware of is abolished yet the Ginko ponzi is let to run free with as it stands on the site this moment 155,398,907L's worth of money.

If Nic wished to prove it was not a ponzi he could and would. The only logical reason to refuse transparency is to hide the crime he has been perpetuating the entire time. His simple refusal to open his books or even outline his business model is all the proof anyone wishing to deposit should need. His very typical attitude of a scammer of "I only have to pay you if I feel like it , I deserve your money because of your ignorance to me defrauding you" is compounding proof.

He could very easily prove my conclusions wrong but he won't cause he cannot. I feel deeply sorry for anyone with large amounts of money locked away in this.

Ginko interest rates drop from .10% to .05%. Yet another tail tale sign of the collapse. Now not only will people run on the bank because Nic is a PR cancer to his own company , but now any other bank in SL offers a better rate. Next will come a complete freez of withdrawals or another interest rate reduction.

At the end of the day Nic has already made it totally clear by his posts in this forum he feels not an ounce of obligation to repay depositors. To him just deciding to up and keep all the money is perfectly moral and right cause "they should have known better".

I suppose the only good thing to come of the gambling ban (aside from a couple peoples sims being less laggy) , is that Ginko and Nic's true colors have finally be plainly shown to all.

Fact of the matter is if Ginko was making the interest legit there would be no reason cap or cut like this because of compared to the total sum a small % withdrawal.

Well... right now, they are offering 148% yearly (.25% daily) returns on term deposits of as little as 30 days. Sure emerging markets are good, but that is just facially unreasonable.

More importantly, though, there's no real argument over this point any more. We all are seeing the same thing actually happening now, in real time. If you go up to an ATM and deposit L$5 someone else will immediately withdraw it. That is the very definition of a financial fraud by Ponzi scheme, and it is probably "wire fraud" as well.

I think we have Enron to thank for that.

Enron was very good as BSing everyone that they were makeing a masive proffit when all they were realy doing was buying and selling divisions and playing shell games with surpluss profits, and useing the proceeds from selling off bad investments and calling that a profit.

So far what we have is someone saying I can make you 100% profits. . . Trust me!

and then showing just how trustworthy he is.

oh thats right, we have not gotten to the second part yet.

You are an ignorant fool. Please stop writing about matters which you do not understand. Unless you take steps to remedy your ignorance, I will not be addressing you any further.

from what I can see whats going on now is hes paying current withdrawls with incomeing money, and trying to get existing buisness to convert their "investment" to another form of investment by promising a higher yeild. unfortunatly from what I can see were in the inevitalbe "Stalling for time" mode just before we see the "pull the plug and run" mode.

Of course I feel an obligation to repay depositors. I simply CANNOT DO SO RIGHT THIS SECOND. And I have THE RIGHT not to pay people RIGHT THIS SECOND, because everyone ACCEPTED the liquidity risk.




Oh lord...

no your just going to have to address everyone else who challenges you and your vaporware promises untill you can actualy show that your not realy doing anything more than playing some elaborate shell game.

Oh thats right, thats all you ever realy do isnt it?

If they do so in an even semi-rational manner, sure.




No, it isn't.

true.

Unfortunatly people do have the right to ask just what the hell your doing once they give you their money.

Realise nic, some of us come from a Game called EVE online.

and right now your little operation sounds a lot less credible than some of the Scames that went on in That game, and THAT game has a 800% per capita income growth rate.

and thats a game where you have to EXPECT to be scammed, some of the players of EVE (and yes I am one of them) will tell you straight up that if your too paranoid to play EVE online your not paranoid ENOUGH to play EVE online.

Ahh ..

but thats the thing ..

If such wonderful investments exist why doesnt he tell people which high yeild Latin American funds and investments he has invested their money in.

People - Especially Nicholas should never forget whose money is involved here. Its not Nicholas'

He got his money - He admitted to paying it to himself and his staff.



I see this going the "this was a high risk investment and you could lose some or all of your intitial stake" route in a hurry.

I'm a lawyer who was part of a team that handled an appeal for someone who was convicted of mail fraud by ponzi scheme. The only difference between what he was convicted for and what you are doing is he used stamps and envelopes instead of Second Life. Otherwise, his claims -- right down to him saying he didn't ever intend to take anyone's money -- were the same as yours. We lost the appeal, and he's still in prison.

I spent two months researching these laws. You are wrong.

I've known it for a while. I was just -- finally -- able to prove it this week. I'm a cautious guy by nature. I'd not say this unless I was certain: what you are doing is transparently illegal. Usually I could not say that, but the immediate nature of transactions in SL makes it possible to *watch* you pay earlier depositors claims with later depositors money. So me -- a cautious attorney who has no personal interest in this -- is saying this as clearly as I can: you are committing a fraud.

I have no expectation you will "be addressing me further" whether or not I "remedy my ignorance." And I don't care if you do or not. You're obviously not going to admit what you've done. I'm not posting for you, I'm posting for the people you are cheating.

---------

http://forge.ironrealms.com/2007/07/31/brazil-is-the-new-nigeria/

For anyone who hasn't read this stuff yet, this above site summarizes the posts I've been running all week very well:

Nic, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but US Civil courts are often not even Semi Rational, even though they use what is called the "Resonable person" test all the time. I have long suspected thats in part because their realy no sutch thing as a "Resnoable person" and because what is considered to be a resonable person is never the same from one case to another.

lol i agree with that statement, left 17b behind (not to mention getting banned if trying to sell)

I shudder to think how low the standards for the practice of law must be in your state.

Every time you come back with nonsense like this, it just confirms my, and a lot of other peoples' suspicions. You don't have a real argument. You just think you're safe because you think you can fall back on "I really really didn't mean to."

But the numbers don't lie. You are transparently giving the money you get today to the people who deposited yesterday. You are promising these people 148% interest on their deposits, but you aren't investing their money, so there's no way you can pay them. You're giving it to other people you owe money to. It's actually just that simple.

The investments have already been made. There is no need to remake them. If one person wants to invest while the other wants to divest, allowing both to do so is not only legal, it's standard business practice.

Sure, except that the money you intend to raise by the IPO was going to Ginko's reserve. It wasn't being invested. Going to the reserve would precisely allow older investors to withdraw funds at the expense of newer investors. That is, by definition, a ponzi scheme.

People have been asking you to disclose the outworld sources for some time now, in calm and rational manner. You, however, have remained obstinate and even rude because you feel no responsibility to give rational investors the tools to make an informed decision - a decision that, by your refusal, pretty obviously would put you out of business.

No, that isn't how it works. You can't just keep increasing the amount you offer people in interest -- now up to 148% -- to entice new money into the operation to pay for the old interest promises that you couldn't meet with investments in the first place. At some point you will run out of money. Which you have, now. And that's why it's illegal.

Try it this way. If you were just saying, "Invest in Ginko, and I'll do what I can to make money for you -- it might be zero, it might be 148%!" you'd be okay running out of cash. Nobody would invest with you any more, but you'd at least not be doing anything illegal.

But you aren't, you're saying (right now) "Invest in Ginko and I will give you 148% a year in returns!" That's very, very different. And if you're taking the money they give you following that promise, and instead give it to people you made a similar promise to last week, that is a crime.