ask him for your money back if you really want it (but i would not suggest this approach i am about to suggest as a good way ^^) if he wont give it back report fraud to LL and see what happens if enough people do that then perhaps he will start giving money back or flee one of the two but that's the only way to get your money out of him if you must try also a ton of other people have to do or the blip wont be large enough on the LL radar for them to notice your lindens as 'stolen"
again its a suggestion but if you really want them and he wont give them back report them stolen
/shrug
i probably should not post this suggestion but thats how to get your lindens back..
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Ginko Has Not Allowed Withdraws For Over A Day Now... |
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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08-01-2007 17:58
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Ebonynight Oh
Registered User
Join date: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 69
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08-01-2007 18:01
To be fair theirs a number of question marks about whats going on in game
Take the net L$ supply, last month it grew at roughly 7%, but how mutch of that growth is real growth (IE Lindens per person) Vs Speculator investing in new lindens from LL mint Vs "Lateral growth" (Ie new players come into the game and convert "Firstlife" funds to L$) if the game population grew at say 10% thats actualy a net loss, if the population grew at a rate of 5% its a net gain, unless speculators came in with rl cash to invest in Virtual realestate for example. It also depends on what the "typical" players "Secondlifetime" L$ spending curve looks like, and where any given % of the player base is on that curve, I suspect most players start off spending a most of their "Lindens" early on then sees the ammount droping off as they have to convert either L$ or real $ to cover subscription/teir costs (Ie they buy their plot of land, then put a house on it, and furnature and eventualy they just buy the occasional small item every now and then) If my assumtion is close to correct, then if the number of new players comeing int othe game has fallen off even by a small ammount, that would tend to indicate a slacking in future demand for L$. theirs also a small problem with Second life investments. theirs realy nothing to keep the other person from abruptly cashing out and leaving. Seriously the ultimate scam would be for someone who has been in the game for a while and decides its time to move on to then go, hmmmm I have a sims worth of land. . .Hey guys? I need some venture caplital to develop this for rentals at L$NNNN a lot/week, then take that cash, lindex it out, cut up the land, dump it on a landbot, abandon whatever does not quick sell, cash out and cancle the account. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-01-2007 18:13
err didnt say it was the cause of the great depression anywhere lol not sure wher eyou read that i said that people lost confidence in banks and ran to them to take their money out thus putting the banks under faster then if they had not paniced. In any event it was simply an observation that a lot of people panic or try to panic others. As I had said I have no interest in ginko bank or most of the financial stuff in sl because well sl is a gamble enough and i find making things much more fun the number crunching, but if its not a ponzi scheme people have to be careful to put it under as a result of a suspicion which is possible as SL is not that large. In any event its showing some symptoms that were seen in the depression bankwise. The cause well I think everyone would need to have esp to find out about exactly why their stocks are undervalued. Bad investment? casino thingy? overall slump? but it looks to me anyhow that even if they sold ever last stock they would not be able to cover all withdrawals if they had people clamouring at the door so it would be for naught and possibly be shooting themselves in the foot with the panic. I'm a member of wse but everytime i read stuff on the site i kinda get a puzzled "but why" feeling even playing with handful of lindens I can't find the "anchor" to it as in being how it can possibly function over the long term. Doesn't mean its evil or anything but like ginko and a lot of other things in sl that just run on "money" with an economy that isn't what I would call i full and total economy just partial because of how we have to acquire lindens it kinda makes no sense to me so I dont invest unless its to see what will happen with my 3 bucks of lindens in any event we can't create a war or anything to fix it so umm yeah i would hope people dont try to panic others and are trying to *make* the thing crash so they can point and go "look see i was right". With small communities like this this is my main worry about any experimental thing that might not quite make sense and even with competing businesses. The possibilities of someone trying to put something under by working people up over it is very very easy and so I hope this is not what we are seeing here. I Might be all wrong but like a lot of stuff I dont necessarily believe a single blog writup or one guy who says He surely knows. It would be like me believing the word of one stranger over another. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve either story only of course its much more dramatical and entertaining to cause discord then harmony lol. It is true that a couple of blog stories doesnt mean the funds bankrupt, or anything of the sort. But at the same time it would behoove the Fund Manager to explain a couple of things. How he managed to grow to keep up with the interest rate he was offering, including: His estimates of the value of Ginko investment assets and why he considers them that value. Lists of proffits to explain the salaries he is paying to himself and his employees. And a plan of when the normal withdrawls will be phased in. Basically the funds total value Liquid and non-Liquid (estimated) has to equal what he owes depositors. Or else the fund is in trouble. |
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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08-01-2007 19:34
Basically the funds total value Liquid and non-Liquid (estimated) has to equal what he owes depositors. Or else the fund is in trouble. yup hehe but looking at also the age of the guy i chalk it up to not knowing or having enough experience with the idea of banking and SL itself. A lot of people seem to point to consipiracy stuff me I dont look at things that way i guess for me it looks like (if ginko is truly in trouble etc) a guy who jumped in with both feet in the deep end not knowing about the sharks and undertoe. He's been around awhile though and its the newer players that seem to jump in face first although I could be wrong about that too maybe i'm just plain old slow and unimpulsive and the average user jumps in using the full faced method? Took me close to 8 months to even decide which direction I was going in that 8 months I think i pretty much figured out the community and learned a lot of different things. The biggest problem sl has is people who come to sl "gonna get rich" thinking they have real world knowledge that's actually going to apply to SL and apply in the same way. Looks to me if anything the guy lacked both experience with SL when he started and probably didn't have a lot of knowledge on how a bank worked. I would assume he is in trouble but again having seen a lot of "stuff" over time he might be in a lot less trouble then people say he is |
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Emily6 Capalini
Registered User
Join date: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 10
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08-01-2007 19:58
Wow. I feel for you guys that lost your money, I really do. Good luck with everything.
I didn't have any money invested, but I had a feeling something was wrong before I read this thread. Let me tell you about my day: Slow day. Really slow day. I was about to log off when I noticed search was back up so I checked events. There was a sale going on, L$10 for business in a box stuff was the one I went to, but there were others with deals around 9-10 lindens all day long in the events list. I dropped about L$300 and got every toy I ever wanted in SL. After dropping all that money I realized that I was broke. I don't need that many lindens. I'm about 2 months old and I camp for lindens to import textures and animations for my projects. Sometimes I dance at a club for lindens when I want to import a lot of things. So I went to some camping areas, only to find that they were absolutely packed. I couldn't even TP to hippie pay. Also, the club I dance at was packed with other dancers, but no customers. What this tells me, from my limited perspective (since I don't have hard numbers on anything): The price of goods is dropping thru the floor, there is a glut in cheap, labor (campers and dancers), consumers are not consuming, the largest bank in SL is going down due to a run caused by a casino policy, a hacker (see first post in this thread), and poor financial management. The casinos all went under, which was a major part of the economy, and minimum bids on land are somehow going up. This is not good at all. I have said since I started playing that the over-inflated land prices would cause problems. Over-inflated land prices plus the casino shutdowns has resulted in the beginning of a recession, I believe. I believe that if something is not done then a crash is highly probable. I do not know what form that may take in a world like second life, but I for one I am holding off on releasing my first product commercially until the dust settles a bit. _____________________
http://emily6.blogspot.com/
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Saur Holt
http://forsakenhearts.blo
Join date: 18 May 2006
Posts: 803
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He need to open up
08-01-2007 20:06
I read his posting he saying he has plains and as soon as he gets funds flowing banking well be back to normal . i been banking with ginko for a year. but if he want to keep ginko going he need to open up and send his costumer at list a note cards explaining what going on. and offer some kind of comp.
right now i do not see a lot of use coming back to ginko . not because not getting our L but manly not know if we will see our L again. I am holding out hope . and lucky i had enfo L on me to keep my store opened. _____________________
http://forsakenhearts.blogspot.com/
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Kira Zobel
Registered User
Join date: 6 Jan 2006
Posts: 345
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08-01-2007 20:15
I myself have a bunch in Ginko, and I think I'm just going to wait this thing out.
But in the meantime, I'm no better the broke. |
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FD Spark
Prim & Texture Doodler
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 4,697
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08-01-2007 20:19
I briefly put in 5000L I had problem luckily got funds and haven't used it.
My question is how secure is bank without any protection anyway they use the same servers issues occasional still come up with private user accounts. If they get hacked via LL servers and tons of L is stolen or its misused the users won't be recompensated by LL? The only time they really do something is if some gets Lindens in fraudlent ways but I am uncertain if the person who lost the money is compensated or the person who unknowlingly bought the Lindens from fraud gets it back. Anyone able to enlighten me? I am always amazed that some people some how can get people to give them thousands of Lindens while majority of us are lucky if we can get the weekly premium stipend. |
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Rocketman Raymaker
Registered User
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 530
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08-01-2007 21:03
Well you can't withdraw money, but you can buy some Ginko bonds: "Ginko Bonds Added & Term Deposits Update 08/01/07 04:50:18 PM EDT We have implemented the ability for you to purchase Ginko Perpetual Bonds using your Ginko Financial savings account. These bonds are transferred to your World Stock Exchange account. You may access this feature from the "Buy Bonds" link under the My Account menu to the left. Additionally, we have lowered the agreement interest rates to 0.19% for all new term deposits." Will people jump on this because it at least lets them sell the bonds and withdraw $$ from the WSE? I don't know how this work. Does it mean that the WSE is now getting 3% of your Ginko balance if you choose to transfer and then sell? The bonds pay a dividend of $1L a month and he is selling them at $26L although you can actually buy them cheaper on market as there is currently an offer to sell at $24. If choose to transfer them from your ginko account in the hopes of getting your money back quicker you'd be making a mistake, the highest current bid is for $15L and that is only an offer for 1336 shares. So if you were transfering them from your ginko account and sellling straight away you'll lose just under half your money and you could only actually do it with 1336 bonds before starting to drive the price down, in fact if you were to sell 7822 bonds you would crash the price down to $2.5L and make and even bigger loss. And yes, the WSE takes 3% commission from every sale you make so you lose there too. Cant say if it would be foolish to buy these or not, because i guess getting some money back is better than getting none and unfortunately i think a lot of people will buy them without realising that they wont be able to sell them in the near future for what they are worth. _____________________
"Proud member of the anti-ginko busy body committee"
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-01-2007 21:07
The bonds pay a dividend of $1L a month and he is selling them at $26L although you can actually buy them cheaper on market as there is currently an offer to sell at $24. If choose to transfer them from your ginko account in the hopes of getting your money back quicker you'd be making a mistake, the highest current bid is for $15L and that is only an offer for 1336 shares. So if you were transfering them from your ginko account and sellling straight away you'll lose just under half your money and you could only actually do it with 1336 bonds before starting to drive the price down, in fact if you were to sell 7822 bonds you would crash the price down to $2.5L and make and even bigger loss. And yes, the WSE takes 3% commission from every sale you make so you lose there too. Cant say if it would be foolish to buy these or not, because i guess getting some money back is better than getting none and unfortunately i think a lot of people will buy them without realising that they wont be able to sell them in the near future for what they are worth. Tthe nightmare would be if he uses the bond money to cover the bank debt becuase he doesnt have enough value to pay it without the bonds. Then the Bonds wouldnt have anything securing them .. |
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Rocketman Raymaker
Registered User
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 530
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08-01-2007 21:13
Tthe nightmare would be if he uses the bond money to cover the bank debt becuase he doesnt have enough value to pay it without the bonds. Then the Bonds wouldnt have anything securing them .. Shhhh!! dont tell anyone that, no one will buy them, LOL I dont think anyone is supposed to realise that and id say that is exactly what the proceeds will be used for, to fill the ATM up for a while. _____________________
"Proud member of the anti-ginko busy body committee"
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-01-2007 21:15
Shhhh!! dont tell anyone that, no one will buy them, LOL I dont think anyone is supposed to realise that and id say that is exactly what the proceeds will be used for, to fill the ATM up for a while. makes sense he wanted to acque Avix or becuase they had cash .. |
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Ravenhurst Xeno
Consiracy with no purpose
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 147
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08-01-2007 21:47
Tthe nightmare would be if he uses the bond money to cover the bank debt becuase he doesnt have enough value to pay it without the bonds. Then the Bonds wouldnt have anything securing them .. Ginko's only significant asset seems to be their stake in WSE which they can't sell without destablezing WSE. This is pure speculation, but it looks like the bonds are a way end run around this problem and use their WSE stake to pay of their depositors. The depositors convert their funds in Ginko into bonds, and sell them, probably at fire sale prices, to gamblers ...err... speculators on WSE. For their part, the speculators hope that when the bonds mature they will be settled with Ginko's WSE stock. Everbody gets something, everybody wins? Right? |
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Ebonynight Oh
Registered User
Join date: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 69
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08-01-2007 21:57
Tthe nightmare would be if he uses the bond money to cover the bank debt becuase he doesnt have enough value to pay it without the bonds. Then the Bonds wouldnt have anything securing them .. The nightmare is that he takes the L$ from the bonds he sells and converts them to R$ and leaves. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-01-2007 22:01
Ginko's only significant asset seems to be their stake in WSE which they can't sell without destablezing WSE. This is pure speculation, but it looks like the bonds are a way end run around this problem and use their WSE stake to pay of their depositors. The depositors convert their funds in Ginko into bonds, and sell them, probably at fire sale prices, to gamblers ...err... speculators on WSE. For their part, the speculators hope that when the bonds mature they will be settled with Ginko's WSE stock. Everbody gets something, everybody wins? Right? So when WSE was ripped off Ginko lost a ton of money? Basically? I dont know about the rest: Sounds like made up wealth to me - not actual investment returns. |
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Ebonynight Oh
Registered User
Join date: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 69
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08-01-2007 22:49
Basic chain reaction.
WSE was ripped off. . . they shut down their lotto so the people who only had their cash in it for that pull out. . . any investments in gambling they held suddenly look like crap and/or. . . Casinoes who may have put part of their income into his "bank" to sheild it from a lucky run and or were tempted by the "returns" decide its time to cash out, or to have funds to pay off teir/Island fees untill they can reoganise their buisness or to ride out the change in policy untill it can be reveresed. . . . that and people are wondering just what he was doing to earn 44% intrest in the first place |
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cHex Losangeles
Registered User
Join date: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 370
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08-01-2007 23:09
Ginko's only significant asset seems to be their stake in WSE which they can't sell without destablezing WSE. I don't follow. How would transferring ownership of shares in HCL from Ginko to somebody else destabilize the WSE? |
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Adz Childs
Artificial Boy
Join date: 6 Apr 2006
Posts: 865
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08-01-2007 23:54
The only way to do it is to place a * load of sell orders onto the market,, satisfying an ever-decreasing number of available buyers at lower and lower prices at each turn. In other words, when you sell large quantities of something that is otherwise scarce, you naturally drive the price down.
_____________________
http://slnamewatch.com — Second Life Last Name Tracking — Email Alerts — Famous People Lookup — http://adz.secondlifekid.com/ — Artificial Boy — Personal Blog
Hmm, there's nothing really helpful there, but thanks for pasting. |
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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08-02-2007 00:00
Basic chain reaction. WSE was ripped off. . . they shut down their lotto so the people who only had their cash in it for that pull out. . . any investments in gambling they held suddenly look like crap and/or. . . Casinoes who may have put part of their income into his "bank" to sheild it from a lucky run and or were tempted by the "returns" decide its time to cash out, or to have funds to pay off teir/Island fees untill they can reoganise their buisness or to ride out the change in policy untill it can be reveresed. . . . that and people are wondering just what he was doing to earn 44% intrest in the first place _____________________
Read or listen to some Eckhart Tolle. You won't regret it.
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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08-02-2007 00:01
So... let's see if I can get my head around this.
1. Mysterious ultra-profitable 'bank' business needs to borrow your money at 40% interest. 2. Significant, unknown amounts cashed out to real money, and now considered 'illiquid.' 3. Other significant amount 'invested' in virtual stocks, now pretty much worthless because they can't sell them. 4. Scheme to acquire more $L from new investors via "IPO" to pay off old investors (that's the very definition of a Ponzi scheme) 5. Unexamined claim of residence in a distant country 6. Theft from virtual stock exchange by same guy who allegedly won large cash prizes recently 7. Said stock exchange adds new layer of internal currency, distinct from $L ... ... ... Ah, folks? The Resident Answer might be: - Your money has been cashed out and spent. - It's long, long, loooooong gone. - The pocketful of empty promises which is 'virtual stock' is all that remains. - Perpetrator is actually within easy reach of US Feds. - Any new investor will be suckered into paying off the old ones. - Scammer isn't bolting too fast because then the heat would be on in RL. - 'Virtual stocks' were used because there never was any 40% return investment. - If you made money unlawfully, you risk US Feds recovering it without warning. - If you aide and abet a scam by perpetuating it you assume criminal liability. Now, that's just one scenario... ...but before anyone else is encouraged to put money in, I'd say it would be pretty good to show that scenario is nonsense? If, in fact, it is. _____________________
 Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon! |
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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08-02-2007 00:20
Des, you are one smart Caledonian. I have never hoped you were wrong before, but I hope you are now for my dear friend who has a ton to lose if you are right.
 _____________________
Read or listen to some Eckhart Tolle. You won't regret it.
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Adz Childs
Artificial Boy
Join date: 6 Apr 2006
Posts: 865
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08-02-2007 00:26
And what about the oddness of the last Ginko lottery winner being the same person who ripped off the WSE? Quite a coincidence, eh? _____________________
http://slnamewatch.com — Second Life Last Name Tracking — Email Alerts — Famous People Lookup — http://adz.secondlifekid.com/ — Artificial Boy — Personal Blog
Hmm, there's nothing really helpful there, but thanks for pasting. |
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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08-02-2007 00:35
I have a theory about that. He might have purchased a large quantity of lottery tickets as a way to launder the money. He might have bought 90% of the tickets, figuring that whatever he put in, he'd just get back again with such a high probability. When I read that headline, at first i thought it was fishy. Then I came up with this theory, which is simpler and seems to fit the facts pretty well. The only thing wrong with it is it only allowed him to launder < 1% of what he needed to launder. Maybe he figured it was better than nothing. _____________________
Read or listen to some Eckhart Tolle. You won't regret it.
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Adz Childs
Artificial Boy
Join date: 6 Apr 2006
Posts: 865
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08-02-2007 00:41
Or, since he is a coder and hacked into the WSE, maybe he rigged the lottery somehow? <=Pure conjecture. _____________________
http://slnamewatch.com — Second Life Last Name Tracking — Email Alerts — Famous People Lookup — http://adz.secondlifekid.com/ — Artificial Boy — Personal Blog
Hmm, there's nothing really helpful there, but thanks for pasting. |
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John Horner
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 626
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08-02-2007 03:55
So... let's see if I can get my head around this. 1. Mysterious ultra-profitable 'bank' business needs to borrow your money at 40% interest. 2. Significant, unknown amounts cashed out to real money, and now considered 'illiquid.' 3. Other significant amount 'invested' in virtual stocks, now pretty much worthless because they can't sell them. 4. Scheme to acquire more $L from new investors via "IPO" to pay off old investors (that's the very definition of a Ponzi scheme) 5. Unexamined claim of residence in a distant country 6. Theft from virtual stock exchange by same guy who allegedly won large cash prizes recently 7. Said stock exchange adds new layer of internal currency, distinct from $L ... ... ... Ah, folks? The Resident Answer might be: - Your money has been cashed out and spent. - It's long, long, loooooong gone. - The pocketful of empty promises which is 'virtual stock' is all that remains. - Perpetrator is actually within easy reach of US Feds. - Any new investor will be suckered into paying off the old ones. - Scammer isn't bolting too fast because then the heat would be on in RL. - 'Virtual stocks' were used because there never was any 40% return investment. - If you made money unlawfully, you risk US Feds recovering it without warning. - If you aide and abet a scam by perpetuating it you assume criminal liability. Now, that's just one scenario... ...but before anyone else is encouraged to put money in, I'd say it would be pretty good to show that scenario is nonsense? If, in fact, it is. Yes I agree that scenario is a pretty sound theory It also appears that Ginko are selling these bonds directly from Ginko accounts, although it appears you pay a hefty premium over the current traded price. It might be a means of exit from Ginko despite the withdrawal limits. But on that point I am seriously quite prepared to be proved wrong as the exit price depends on stock market supply and demand as well as countless other variables. One view to take is that the whole position is paper on paper on paper. Or to put it another way another oblique view theory is your money has gone to money heaven. But......despite my time limits spent on this ONE fact has emerged, I may be mistaken in my interpretations of this but......Nicholas owns 34.81% of Hope Capital, which makes him the largest shareholder, Luck the WSE chairman and CEO owns 21%. So essentially Nicholas owns 34%( 9 million shares) of the WSE. A Ginko statement published on the WSE indicates Ginkos position in HCL was 6.7 million shares so I could presume Nicholas is adding to his position. So taking these so called facts into account Nicholas is already in a position to outvote Luke and take over the running of the WSE, although Luke could defeat that with support of other shareholders. If however Nicholas is able to increase his position in HCL by around 15% he would control HCL, (the entire WSE business including a virtual bank, the stock market, and Second Life real estate) At that point in a real life situation it would be easy for Nicholas to shuffle Luke aside and run the WSE on behalf of Ginko. Therefore achieving Ginko's possible aim of controlling a stock market, of which he tried (and failed) to do with AVIX. This is how it could work in real life terms, I am not sure if Second Life (and our Linden masters) would enforce a change of ownership from Luke to Nicholas if the above scenario happens. Just maybe that is why Nicholas now chooses to reveal his so called real life ID. Luke (as we all know) has always been quite open about his. So perhaps Nicholas is prepared for legal action to enforce. By the way, HCL has a share cap of 25,856,126 so Nicholas would need say 13 million shares to have the controlling interest, that’s around 4 million shares he would need to acquire. Cost on current market price would be around $L8 million or about $30,000 US...a sum that just might be within Nicholas's grasp. Hmm, interesting times especially for two other large external HCL shareholders who control 2.5 million shares because……….(smile, I will let you lot figure from here) |